Player Discussion: Blake Wheeler on Situation in Minnesota - Read Mod note in OP

[Hunter368]

Some good discussion going on. One thing that I find derails progress is all the finger pointing that goes on. I don't think the media and politicians are helping matters by slinging mud at the police non stop. When you get attacked relentlessly you tend to dig in and get defensive.

What we need is honest dialog across many institutions on how things can be changed. While its important to recognize why we got to this situation we need active participation by all parties if you want to foster real and sustainable change.

While I agree, honest and real dialog will be hard to come by with a lot of politics going on throughout this by all sides (right/left/special interest groups, etc). After watching many many hours of debate, reading articles, etc on the subject......there is so much false statements/politicking being made by all sides it's crazy.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Well, we've seen what happens when white cops know they can murder anyone - justified or not - with near total impunity...so yeah, I think it's time to bring some real accountability to police.

And criminals who repeatedly break the law because there are no real consequences.
Imagine being a policeman who deal with the repeat offenders again and again only to have the courts turn them loose over and over.
Maybe the justice system needs accountability as well.
The vast majority of police are not cold blooded killers.
I don’t believe the vast majority of police are racist either.
In a few short months we’re going to be on some other hot button issue that nobody has bothered to be outraged about and this one will go on the back burner.
It’s just the way it is.

 

[Tommigun]

There's as many murders in Newark (population 275k) as in the entirety of Finland (5M+).
Imagine being an officer in that climate, of course they need to be tough and rough.
That city also has a 50+% black population. So I really don't understand what people are protesting over there.
Police brutality against the blacks? Statistics say it ain't so.

Are people really so intellectually bankrupt or so ideologically blinded that they can't see that the protests don't make any sense, as there is no police brutality against blacks? Stats are not racist, they are just facts. Why not give the police a break and protest against poverty or something else that is tangible and based on facts... and stop glorifying police killing activities.

 

[Tommigun]

Someone in this thread was pointing out the 20x (or whatever it was) more police shooting casualties per capita in US vs Finland.
Of course if the murder rate is 20x higher police have to shoot more people. But now they want to dismantle the police... they are not the problem here.

 

[Gm0ney]

And criminals who repeatedly break the law because there are no real consequences.
Imagine being a policeman who deal with the repeat offenders again and again only to have the courts turn them loose over and over.
Maybe the justice system needs accountability as well.
The vast majority of police are not cold blooded killers.
I don’t believe the vast majority of police are racist either.
In a few short months we’re going to be on some other hot button issue that nobody has bothered to be outraged about and this one will go on the back burner.
It’s just the way it is.

The criminal justice system is massively skewed against defendants. There are thousands and thousands of innocent people are in jail in the US...maybe hundreds of thousands - after all, there are over 2.1 million people in prison in the US. They have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world. Poor? Black? Accused of a crime? You're f***ed. White? Rich? Well, let's not get too hasty... Anyway that's a different topic. I don't think the US suffers from the "revolving door justice" as much as a place like Canada, with a much lower incarceration rate and a tendency towards slap-on-the-wrist sentencing.

I agree that the vast majority of police are not cold blooded killers or racists...but you have to admit, the unchecked power inherent in the job certainly seems like it would attract a lot of those bad apples. I saw on Twitter the other day: if actual bad apples were as frequently deadly as police, you wouldn't be able to buy them in grocery stores. Anyway, the saying goes a few bad apples spoil the bunch - so when decent cops protect the bad apples, they're part of the rot as well.

 

[Exiled Jets Fan]

There's as many murders in Newark (population 275k) as in the entirety of Finland (5M+).
Imagine being an officer in that climate, of course they need to be tough and rough.
That city also has a 50+% black population. So I really don't understand what people are protesting over there.
Police brutality against the blacks? Statistics say it ain't so.

Are people really so intellectually bankrupt or so ideologically blinded that they can't see that the protests don't make any sense, as there is no police brutality against blacks? Stats are not racist, they are just facts. Why not give the police a break and protest against poverty or something else that is tangible and based on facts... and stop glorifying police killing activities.[/
Once again, I'm going to point out your statistics are nonsense. You begin with assumptions and you find the evidence that supports it. You speak of civil wars caused by people defending themselves. You speak of a lovely world in which people all have equal opportunity but are blind to how it affects others and aren't even curious. You simply dismiss what they are saying about their own experience and yet you expect others to treat your opinions with respect. Get out into the world and talk to others and you may have a chance of seeing it as it is instead of what it looks like in your narrow bubble.

 

[Jets 31]

Someone in this thread was pointing out the 20x (or whatever it was) more police shooting casualties per capita in US vs Finland.
Of course if the murder rate is 20x higher police have to shoot more people. But now they want to dismantle the police... they are not the problem here.

The ability to get a gun in the U.S is a very big problem, if someone grew some balls and stood up to the NRA they might actually fix some major problems . Politicians could stop taking money from the NRA as well.

 

[Tommigun]

"You begin with assumptions and you find the evidence that supports it."

I wasn't looking for any evidence to support some assumption, what makes you think so? Facts are facts. I really don't care that much about this as I live on the other side of the world.

The biggest newspaper in my country ran an article about murders (and police work) in Newark vs Finland and and that's where I got the numbers from. They are very well researched and not a megaphone for a political party.

 

[Tommigun]

Why do you guys hate facts so much?

 

[Duke749]

Some good discussion going on. One thing that I find derails progress is all the finger pointing that goes on. I don't think the media and politicians are helping matters by slinging mud at the police non stop. When you get attacked relentlessly you tend to dig in and get defensive.

What we need is honest dialog across many institutions on how things can be changed. While its important to recognize why we got to this situation we need active participation by all parties if you want to foster real and sustainable change.

The politicians and media are feeding the divide and a lot of people are eating it up. The politicians don’t care. They just want to keep the poor in poverty and at each other’s throats.

The media just wants ratings so they do what they need too.

 

[Tommigun]

The politicians and media are feeding the divide and a lot of people are eating it up. The politicians don’t care. They just want to keep the poor in poverty and at each other’s throats.

The media just wants ratings so they do what they need too.

For an outsider all of that looks very much by design.

American companies are tripping over themselves to proclaim loyalty to the BLM.
They know that focusing on race and perceived police brutality is divisive and will take all the focus away from the real problem - poverty.
Who have the most money? Companies. They know they could be in for a reckoning if people got serious about solving the poverty problem, so they are stirring the flames with divisive distractions that won't have any long-lasting effects. Greedy.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

 

[Duke749]

The ability to get a gun in the U.S is a very big problem, if someone grew some balls and stood up to the NRA they might actually fix some major problems . Politicians could stop taking money from the NRA as well.

What do you suggest specifically? I know we can’t take guns away from law abiding citizens. That could lead to bigger problems.

I think starting with an overall cultural change in American society would be a good start. Maybe actually spending money on education would help. Like a lot. There’s actually a lot of things that we could change and things would fix themselves much better. Everyone keeps playing victim in America.

 

[Duke749]

For an outsider all of that looks very much by design.

American companies are tripping over themselves to proclaim loyalty to the BLM.
They know that focusing on race and perceived police brutality is divisive and will take all the focus away from the real problem - poverty.
Who have the most money? Companies. They know they could be in for a reckoning if people got serious about solving the poverty problem, so they are stirring the flames with divisive distractions instead. Greedy.
It's all smoke and mirrors.

That’s what’s kept some politicians in office for so long. And people actually wonder why Trump got elected. News flash, it’s because he’s not a politician. Anyways, let’s not go down that rabbit hole please.

 

[Tommigun]

That’s what’s kept some politicians in office for so long. And people actually wonder why Trump got elected. News flash, it’s because he’s not a politician. Anyways, let’s not go down that rabbit hole please.

The engineered infected climate was instantly apparent when I presented some numbers just above. It's working, it palates the masses and is ultimately absolutely futile. Why want change when you can yell 'racist' about stats, facts and everything in-between? Democrats don't care one bit about black people, they just want their votes, and treat them like children. When everyone spend 100% of their energy on completely irrelevant things the status quo will be upheld and nothing will change. It's almost like some form of modern day slavery and quite insulting.

 

[Tommigun]

What do you suggest specifically? I know we can’t take guns away from law abiding citizens. That could lead to bigger problems.

I think starting with an overall cultural change in American society would be a good start. Maybe actually spending money on education would help. Like a lot. There’s actually a lot of things that we could change and things would fix themselves much better. Everyone keeps playing victim in America.

Make education free, and remove all the indoctrination from there. Done, all problems solved.

 

[KCjetsfan]

Why do you guys hate facts so much?

Statistics show black people are at a much higher rate per capital of suffering from police violence in the US. Statistics show policies like stop and frisk target minorities in an amazingly disproportionate rate. I could go on and on. Why do you hate facts so much?

 

[Jets 31]

What do you suggest specifically? I know we can’t take guns away from law abiding citizens. That could lead to bigger problems.

I think starting with an overall cultural change in American society would be a good start. Maybe actually spending money on education would help. Like a lot. There’s actually a lot of things that we could change and things would fix themselves much better. Everyone keeps playing victim in America.

I agree with you but it sure seems like in countries where it's harder to get a gun there is less shootings and killings . But it's in your 2nd amendment that you have the right to bare arms so until that is changed i guess guns won't.

 

[Tommigun]

Statistics show black people are at a much higher rate per capital of suffering from police violence in the US. Statistics show policies like stop and frisk target minorities in an amazingly disproportionate rate. I could go on and on. Why do you hate facts so much?

I presented some calculations I did earlier in this thread, and the conclusion was that there is almost a 1:1 relationship between elevated violent crime amongst blacks and their higher rate of getting killed by the police.
Officers shoot violent offenders independently of race (whites a little bit more in fact). Violent crime is the only real trigger for getting killed by a police and the stats show this clearly.

Hence I think a lot of people are barking up the wrong tree. The real problem is the elevated violent crime amongst blacks, and the cause of that is what needs to get resolved. That requires fundamental changes in your society and everything else is just a symptom of the underlying problems. If even a fraction of the energy was spent on reforms that actually mattered you guys would be well on your way. Everything that's being done now is just symbolic and won't do much good. That's why facts are important, no matter how unpleasant.

 

[Tommigun]

Real changes would be costly... but would result in an equal society in a few generations:

1) Free education. The backbone and cornerstone of everything. No need for affirmative actions a few generations down the line.
2) Better social services, but NOT handouts to prevent passivising people.
3) A lot of educations in the states are very quick ones - it takes 3 (!) years to become an officer here, not 6 months as in the states. With this the quality of services go up, but there's diminishing returns after a point.

All of the above are costly, so instead the powers that be (and companies!) deflect to something quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And yell racist while at it.

 

[Exiled Jets Fan]

I presented some calculations I did earlier in this thread, and the conclusion was that there is almost a 1:1 relationship between elevated violent crime amongst blacks and their higher rate of getting killed by the police.
Officers shoot violent offenders independently of race (whites a little bit more in fact). Violent crime is the only real trigger for getting killed by a police and the stats show this clearly.

Hence I think a lot of people are barking up the wrong tree. The real problem is the elevated violent crime amongst blacks, and the cause of that is what needs to get resolved. That requires fundamental changes in your society and everything else is just a symptom of the underlying problems. If even a fraction of the energy was spent on reforms that actually mattered you guys would be well on your way. Everything that's being done now is just symbolic and won't do much good. That's why facts are important, no matter how unpleasant.

You might want to look at a number of facts not just the ones that you believe reinforce your opinions. And your opinions aren't facts. I've seen a lot of first year university students make the. Same mistakes you are. The only relevant facts are the ones that reinforce your preconceived notions and anyone who disagrees with your opinions does so because they have a hidden agenda. They eventually learn that to argue successfully, you have to grapple with what you don't know. Even if it makes you rethink how you see the world.

 

[Tommigun]

You might want to look at a number of facts not just the ones that you believe reinforce your opinions. And your opinions aren't facts. I've seen a lot of first year university students make the. Same mistakes you are. The only relevant facts are the ones that reinforce your preconceived notions and anyone who disagrees with your opinions does so because they have a hidden agenda. They eventually learn that to argue successfully, you have to grapple with what you don't know. Even if it makes you rethink how you see the world.

What preconceived notions are you talking about? As I said I got the numbers from Finland's biggest newspaper that did an analysis piece of crime (and police work) in Newark vs Finland. Please stop doing what you are doing right now. This is exactly the kind of theatrics I'd like to avoid and was talking about just one post up.

 

[KCjetsfan]

I presented some calculations I did earlier in this thread, and the conclusion was that there is almost a 1:1 relationship between elevated violent crime amongst blacks and their higher rate of getting killed by the police.
Officers shoot violent offenders independently of race (whites a little bit more in fact). Violent crime is the only real trigger for getting killed by a police and the stats show this clearly.

Hence I think a lot of people are barking up the wrong tree. The real problem is the elevated violent crime amongst blacks, and the cause of that is what needs to get resolved. That requires fundamental changes in your society and everything else is just a symptom of the underlying problems. If even a fraction of the energy was spent on reforms that actually mattered you guys would be well on your way. Everything that's being done now is just symbolic and won't do much good. That's why facts are important, no matter how unpleasant.

Your 'statistics' and your conclusion drawn from them were laughably completely wrong and proven as such by several people. Facts are important; but stating something you feel in your head as such does not make it so.

 

[KCjetsfan]

Real changes would be costly... but would result in an equal society in a few generations:

1) Free education. The backbone and cornerstone of everything. No need for affirmative actions a few generations down the line.
2) Better social services, but NOT handouts to prevent passivising people.
3) A lot of educations in the states are very quick ones - it takes 3 (!) years to become an officer here, not 6 months as in the states. With this the quality of services go up, but there's diminishing returns after a point.

All of the above are costly, so instead the powers that be (and companies!) deflect to something quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And yell racist while at it.

Add universal health care to this. Lack of affordable care is so intertwined in all aspects of life in the us.

 

[Tommigun]

Add universal health care to this. Lack of affordable care is so intertwined in all aspects of life in the us.

Problem with that is that it doesn't really work that well. The quality of care is so low and it increases taxes by such a large amount, that even in Finland companies provide private healthcare programs to employees. In Sweden, where COVID-19 is running rampant, a lot of people have gotten zero care. They look at the age of the person and if over a certain threshold give morphine instead that is guaranteed to kill them. In a perfect world yes, but I don't know if it could ever be realistic anywhere (with any degree of quality in the care). For life saving operations and such, even though prohibitively expensive, it's still worth it, but a 'free card' maybe not so much.
But this is off topic probably, my list was suggestions on real change towards making the society more equal, not a comparison of mixed economy countries vs capitalistic ones as this is turning into

 

[Duke749]

America in general is too corrupt to make any serious positive change.