Best non-NA defensemen of all time?

[Namba 17]

And the next group: Romishevskiy, Stelnov, Babinov, Yushkevich, Kasparaitis, Stavjana, Kajkl, Hamrlik, Waltin, Ulf Samuelsson, Lumme, Salo.
It gives us top-50 (if I'm not mistaking).

 

[MaxV]

If Yushkevich played under Quinn longer, he would be very high on this list.

Quinn got him to be a badass, but after injuries happened and his peak is short.

 

[Iapyi]

salming

 

[MaxV]

Where exactly?

These lists are tough, I admit. I've studied Russian Ds specifically, so I can't really speak for other Euro Ds other then the ones I've seen in NHL.

My list of Russian Ds come from imperfect information obviously, but it probably would be:

1. Slava Fetisov ... this one is easy
2. Valery Vasiliev ... I actually think he is underrated offensively, he had skills there also, but he viewed defense as his main responsibility and rarely ventured forward.
3. Alexei Kasatonov ... this guy would be viewed MUCH higher if Fetisov never existed imo. He absolutely had great 2-way ability. Keep in mind, it's really not easy to put up great numbers when your defensive partner is aggressive, yet that still happened.
4. Sergei Zubov ... I've said it before and I'll say it again, this guy is very underrated. The idea that he was one-dimensional is reputation only not reality. Great regular season track record, even better playoff career, I wonder if he would be a HOFer if he was Steve Zubnon from Ontario. Let me ask you all a question, Dave Andreychuk gets credit for his contribution as a role player on SC champion and what does Zubov get as one of the best players on 2 SC champions? Here is a trivia question for you, who led that famous '94 Rangers' team in points? Thank goodness they had Messier to "carry" them to SC.
5. Nikolay Sologubov ... ok, I admit, this one's tough. His competition is weaker, but even in NHL the competition isn't linear with so many changes that the league has undergone over the years. If you judge players based on their performance relative to their peers, Sologubov was one of the best of his time.
6. Alexander Ragulin ... similar to Vasiliev as far as offensive capabilities are underrated because he underutilized them. One of the smartest blue-liners on this list, his understanding of his position was off the charts.
7. Sergei Gonchar ... similar to Zubov, his reputation of one-dimensional Russian D followed him even when it was no longer the case. His Pittsburgh years were excellent, better then most player's peaks on this list. I can't speak on his Washington years, but something tells me there was more reputation then reality there also since according to most NA hockey "experts" physicality=defense.
8. Andrei Markov ... Russian. Good offensive numbers. Not very physical. This is a sure formula of a player who was a liability defensively, right? I wonder if there are any Habs' fans that are reading this. Oh, and regarding offensive numbers, do people even understand the difference in eras?
9. Vlad Konstantinov ... oh, what could have been. He still played long enough that I refuse to put other stay-at-home Russian/Soviet Ds over him. A lot of them had short peaks anyway.
10. Vlad Lutchenko ... tough to judge him on numbers and awards, but he was absolutely considered among the best of his time. He showed flashes of offensive capabilities, but it's his defense that has him on this list.
11. Vitaly Davydov ... Among the best of his time, he was also similar to Lutchenko, capable offensively, but defense-first. This actually seems like a theme with Russian Ds pre-1980s. I think it has a lot to do with the scheme, rather then the talent. A lot of these guys played with great forwards, or all really, less of a need to be aggressive.
12. Dmitry Yushkevich ... a lot of his career was marked with injuries and inconsistency, but those seasons with Toronto, boy... He was one of league's best in his own zone, unfortunately briefly. Just ask Jagr if he was easy to play against, they had some heated moments.
13. Viktor Kuzkin ... the leader and the rock of both CSKA and the NT, he was not flashy but was relied on heavily and was a big part of very successful teams.
14. Ilya Nikulin ... this is going to be HIGHLY controversial, but I am very high on this player. He was one of the leaders on 3 WHC gold medal teams (also has a silver and a bronze, plus 4-time league champ). I know those tournaments are viewed as second-rate, but the competition is far better then given credit, PLENTY of NHLers and talent in general. He was even the Captain on the 2012 WHC gold-winning team, making into the tournament's all-star team. Physical puck mover with high IQ, in his prime, he was one of Russia's best. He absolutely deserves better recognition, his trophy case rivals most Soviet guys.
15. Ivan Tregubov ... a bit overshadowed by the more highly-touted Sologobuv, Tregubov has a strong legacy of his own. Again, we are judging this based on performance relative to peers.

 

[crobro]

Ilka sinisalo
Ozolinsh

 

[Namba 17]

These lists are tough, I admit. I've studied Russian Ds specifically, so I can't really speak for other Euro Ds other then the ones I've seen in NHL.

My list of Russian Ds come from imperfect information obviously, but it probably would be:

1. Slava Fetisov ... this one is easy
2. Valery Vasiliev ... I actually think he is underrated offensively, he had skills there also, but he viewed defense as his main responsibility and rarely ventured forward.
3. Alexei Kasatonov ... this guy would be viewed MUCH higher if Fetisov never existed imo. He absolutely had great 2-way ability. Keep in mind, it's really not easy to put up great numbers when your defensive partner is aggressive, yet that still happened.
4. Sergei Zubov ... I've said it before and I'll say it again, this guy is very underrated. The idea that he was one-dimensional is reputation only not reality. Great regular season track record, even better playoff career, I wonder if he would be a HOFer if he was Steve Zubnon from Ontario. Let me ask you all a question, Dave Andreychuk gets credit for his contribution as a role player on SC champion and what does Zubov get as one of the best players on 2 SC champions? Here is a trivia question for you, who led that famous '94 Rangers' team in points? Thank goodness they had Messier to "carry" them to SC.
5. Nikolay Sologubov ... ok, I admit, this one's tough. His competition is weaker, but even in NHL the competition isn't linear with so many changes that the league has undergone over the years. If you judge players based on their performance relative to their peers, Sologubov was one of the best of his time.
6. Alexander Ragulin ... similar to Vasiliev as far as offensive capabilities are underrated because he underutilized them. One of the smartest blue-liners on this list, his understanding of his position was off the charts.
7. Sergei Gonchar ... similar to Zubov, his reputation of one-dimensional Russian D followed him even when it was no longer the case. His Pittsburgh years were excellent, better then most player's peaks on this list. I can't speak on his Washington years, but something tells me there was more reputation then reality there also since according to most NA hockey "experts" physicality=defense.
8. Andrei Markov ... Russian. Good offensive numbers. Not very physical. This is a sure formula of a player who was a liability defensively, right? I wonder if there are any Habs' fans that are reading this. Oh, and regarding offensive numbers, do people even understand the difference in eras?
9. Vlad Konstantinov ... oh, what could have been. He still played long enough that I refuse to put other stay-at-home Russian/Soviet Ds over him. A lot of them had short peaks anyway.
10. Vlad Lutchenko ... tough to judge him on numbers and awards, but he was absolutely considered among the best of his time. He showed flashes of offensive capabilities, but it's his defense that has him on this list.
11. Vitaly Davydov ... Among the best of his time, he was also similar to Lutchenko, capable offensively, but defense-first. This actually seems like a theme with Russian Ds pre-1980s. I think it has a lot to do with the scheme, rather then the talent. A lot of these guys played with great forwards, or all really, less of a need to be aggressive.
12. Dmitry Yushkevich ... a lot of his career was marked with injuries and inconsistency, but those seasons with Toronto, boy... He was one of league's best in his own zone, unfortunately briefly. Just ask Jagr if he was easy to play against, they had some heated moments.
13. Viktor Kuzkin ... the leader and the rock of both CSKA and the NT, he was not flashy but was relied on heavily and was a big part of very successful teams.
14. Ilya Nikulin ... this is going to be HIGHLY controversial, but I am very high on this player. He was one of the leaders on 3 WHC gold medal teams (also has a silver and a bronze, plus 4-time league champ). I know those tournaments are viewed as second-rate, but the competition is far better then given credit, PLENTY of NHLers and talent in general. He was even the Captain on the 2012 WHC gold-winning team, making into the tournament's all-star team. Physical puck mover with high IQ, in his prime, he was one of Russia's best. He absolutely deserves better recognition, his trophy case rivals most Soviet guys.
15. Ivan Tregubov ... a bit overshadowed by the more highly-touted Sologobuv, Tregubov has a strong legacy of his own. Again, we are judging this based on performance relative to peers.

My comments on your list:
Zubov over Sologubov.
Sologubov was considered as one of the top D of his time. He got 3 (three) the best defenseman of the WC awards. There was only one defenseman, who got the same recognition and only one, who overcame this achievement. Their names are Vasiliev and Fetisov. So, you may see a territory Sologubov touched. Add here 7 Soviet all-stars and you'll get a player, who wasn't ranked higher because of his epoch only. Don't forget, that Sologubov was one of the first, if not the first Russian defenseman, who became offensive defenseman, being equally good defensively. Normally, Tarasov didn't like offense from his Ds, because they may lose position. He made an exclusion for Sologubov especially, because he was so good, that he rarely made a mistake playing offence, but even if he made one, he was always in time on his blue line. His 4th place in goals, scored for national team on WC and OG (after Fetisov, Kasatonov and Vasiliev) icing the cake.
I can't see anything, that would have justified Zubov over Sologubov.

Zubov over Ragulin. Ragulin was 5 times WC all-stars, which is equal to Vasiliev and Kasatonov and lesser than Fetisov only. He is also 9 times Soviet all-star, which is more than anyone, not named Fetisov and Kasatonov (who had similar 9 all-stars, but leaved USSR for NA). Ragulin also won more medals on WC and OG than any hockey player in history. I may agree, that a distance between him and Zubov is not that big, but I can't put Zubov over San Palych.

tbc later

 

[Namba 17]

cont:
Gonchar over Lutchenko.
Probably, I underrated Gonchar, but I rate one of the best defensive defensemen of the world in 70-s higher, than 3 4-th places of Norris voting (and yes, Gonchar was much better offensively, than defensively - his reputation has some basis here).
Gonchar over Konstantinov. Konstantinov's career finished tragically and was comparatively short, but he was Norris' runner-up and Gochar was not. Add here, that Konstantinov was a defensive d-man and he need to be hell of a defensive d-man to be considered as one on the Norris contenders. So, I don't see Gonchar over him as well.
Gonchar over Davydov. Yes, I may agree with you here - it's a matter of taste - what do you like more - offence or defense. Probably, Gonchar deserved to be #19 on my list

tbc

 

[Namba 17]

Markov. You wrote:

Russian. Good offensive numbers. Not very physical. This is a sure formula of a player who was a liability defensively, right?

It's some kind of well-know Russian anecdote logic (if this box is square it must contain something round inside). Not necessary.
Markov is... what - 2 times 6th in Norris voting? He is very talented, but injuries caused him his top-20 place.
Konstantinov over Lutchenko - no. Similar players, but Lutchenko long-time achievements look too solid. One year, even great, is not enough.
Yushkevich. They are similar players with Kuzkin, but Kuzkin was reliable for all his long career and Yushkevich had injuries, some inconsistency too. Tregubov's peak was short, but vivid. Yushkevich never peaked that high. I'd said, the same correct for Ivanov.
Nikulin. It's not controversial. It's just plain wrong. He has absolutely nothing to do in this part of the list. He played in pretty weak Russian league and had 2 (TWO) KHL all-stars and one WC all-stars. FFS, NIKITA ZAYTSEV HAS THE VERY SAME ACHIVEMENTS!!!

I'll comment on Pervukhin later.

 

[MaxV]

Look, guys, I get it, we can't just review every game. Award recognitions is kind of what we go by with making these lists, but you can't tell me that you have always agreed with the voting results.

I've seen both Zubov and especially Gonchar (Pens' fan) and I can tell you with certainty that they both deserve more recognition then what they have received.

Gonchar's time in Pittsburgh is overshadowed by the presence of Malkin and Crosby, but if you viewed his play you would know that he was a MAJOR part of their success.

What happened to Pens when he was gone?

 

[Namba 17]

Ilka sinisalo
Ozolinsh

Ozolinsh was ranked. Ilka Sinisalo was forward.

 

[crobro]

Uwe Krupp?

 

[Jyssy]

Reijo Ruotsalainen?

 

[VMBM]

 

[Namba 17]

Pervukhin. He was, probably, the most unlucky defenseman (like Park). He played in the same time with Vasiliev, Fetisov and Kasatonov But during all his long career he considered as strong #4 or #3 among Soviet defensemen. He is 4th (after Fetisov, Kasatonov and Vasiliev) in games, played for national team in all competitions.
In any other time he may have had 4-7 Soviet and couple of WC all-stars. Once (1979) he was even Soviet all-stars (ahead of Fetisov). Also, he was one of only 3 defensemen in Soviet history, who got some MVP consideration - he was voted 5-th in 1977 and in 1985. Other two - Vasiliev and Fetisov.
This is why I have him that high (probably, little higher, than he should be).

 

[Namba 17]

Anyway, this is my complete list of top-50 non NA defensemen:
#1 Lidstrom
#2 Fetisov
#3-6 Karlsson (alphabetical order)
#3-6 Pospisil
#3-6 Salming
#3-6 Vasiliev
#7 Kasatonov
#8 Suchy
#9 Bubla
#10 Sologubov
#11 Chara
#12 Ragulin
#13 Zubov
#14-15 Lutchenko
#14-15 Mahach
#16 Pervukhin
#17 Tikal
#18 Konstantinov
#19-22 Davydov
#19-22 Svedberg
#19-22 Sjoberg
#19-22 Gonchar
#23 Kuzkin
#24 Tregubov
#25 Ivanov
#26 Markov
#27 Numminen
#28 Kaberle
#29 Tsygankov
#30-38 Gusev
#30-38 Lyapkin
#30-38 Billyaletdinov
#30-38 Ozolinsh
#30-38 Timonen
#30-38 Josi
#30-38 Svoboda
#30-38 Chalupa
#30-38 Dvorak
#39-50 Romishevskiy
#39-50 Stelnov
#39-50 Babinov
#39-50 Yushkevich
#39-50 Kasparaitis
#39-50 Stavjana
#39-50 Kajkl
#39-50 Hamrlik
#39-50 Waltin
#39-50 Ulf Samuelsson
#39-50 Lumme
#39-50 Salo

 

[VMBM]

And that photo (post #63) is of Pekka Marjamäki (Peter Berry-Hill), in case anyone is wondering and/or interested. Requiescat in pace. Probably the top Finnish dman before the arrival of Pekka Rautakallio (Peter Iron-Rock, deserves a mention too!), Reijo Ruotsalainen and the like. Marjamäki has one accolade that quite many other European dmen that have been mentioned here don't have; he was named the Best Defenseman at the World Championship (1975) and was also selected to the All-Star team, along with Vasiliev.

 

[Namba 17]

Pekka Marjamäki; he was named the Best Defenseman at the World Championship (1975) and was also selected to the All-Star team, along with Vasiliev.

The most jaw-dropping fact about him to me is that he was REAL amateur

 

[VMBM]

Yes well, most of the 1970s Finnish players had jobs; Marja was a fireman. But he did get paid something for playing too (nearly all of his career for Tappara in Finland)... Or what do you mean by 'real' amateur?

 

[crobro]

No Uwe Krupp ?

 

[Namba 17]

Yes well, most of the 1970s Finnish players had jobs; Marja was a fireman. But he did get paid something for playing too (nearly all of his career for Tappara in Finland)... Or what do you mean by 'real' amateur?

Yes, I mean, that he was a fireman

 

[MisterNoItAll]

Lidstrom, than Chara. Chara gets underrated a lot around here. Norris winner, second European in history to captain a team to the Cup.

 

[Namba 17]

No Uwe Krupp ?

It's a matter of taste. You may have him over Salo or Lumme in this list. Or as #39-51.

 

[psycat]

Lidström

Fetisov
Karlsson

Chara
Salming

 

[Namba 17]

Marjamäki has one accolade that quite many other European dmen that have been mentioned here don't have; he was named the Best Defenseman at the World Championship (1975) and was also selected to the All-Star team, along with Vasiliev.

I thought about including him into the list, but decided, that he should be outside of the top-50. Where would you have him? Top-50? Instead of whom?

 

[VMBM]

I'd have to think about it more carefully (no time right now). I'm not even quite settled on how to rank Finnish defensemen (vs each other); Numminen is arguably the obvious #1, but after that it's difficult. I think I'd have e.g. Pekka Rautakallio and Reijo Ruotsalainen slightly above Marjamäki.