Best non-NA defensemen of all time?

[MaxV]

See, I think the opposite. I think he's overrated from a few perspectives...not the least of which is the relatively weak d-man era he played in...and I'm saying this on the scale of greatness, not versus his contemporary peers...he really doesn't do a ton for me...ok, yeah, shutdown D, sure, big guy, capable of a hit, had a big shot...but on the "HOF scale" of things, really weak skater, really weak puck mover, not a carrier...I mean, he did come around from being a pretty poor player in his first few seasons, which is great by him...he is a threat to kill from the point...he willed a fringe NHL goalie to a Stanley Cup in 2011...he was a really terrific player, for sure...but from a pure talent perspective, he loses the tiebreaker for me on these all-time lists, so when I get the chance to slide him down, I do...but respectfully...

You are going to run out of HOF caliber players pretty quickly if you view Chara as not worthy.

 

[Namba 17]

I always find Chara to be really underrated. I think he could be argued

Go ahead

 

[Michael Farkas]

You are going to run out of HOF caliber players pretty quickly if you view Chara as not worthy.

I don't think I even implied that he wasn't HOF caliber...I tried to make it as clear as possible that I was comparing his talent level vs. d-men on this lofty of an all-time list...that's really all...I know he's a HOFer...

 

[overpass]

Lidstrom #1, Fetisov #2. I have Chara as a solid #3. Individual awards aside, he had an outstanding track record of success for over a decade.

Leader in plus-minus since 2001-02 at +285, with only one teammate in the top 10 (Hossa). Third in playoff plus-minus over the same time (+34). Best defenceman of teams that had the best defensive record in the NHL 4 times, second best 3 times, and top 5 3 other times.*

Pick at his talent if you must. I will say Chara denied more ice defensively than any other defenceman I’ve seen. With his size, stick, positioning, movement, and physical play, he shrunk the ice available to the opposition and changed all the angles. Whether you call that talent or not, it wins games.

*It was an almost uninterrupted run of team success for Chara from 2001-02 to 2013-14, minus the Dave Lewis Exception in 2006-07. But Nicklas Lidstrom has his own Dave Lewis Exception in 2003-04. It happens to the best of them.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Salming was more skilled then Chara and also very sound in his own zone. Top5 in Norris voting for his first 7 years are insane in that era. I would probably rank like this.

Lidstrom
Fetisov
Salming
Karlsson
Chara

I think Karlsson will climb quite easily in the next few years.

 

[crobro]

Sjoberg

 

[Thenameless]

I have Chara rated highly as well. Not much on offense, except for that point shot on the power play. But that defense he provides - man! I'm not surprised that his plus-minus numbers are so good. People that say plus-minus is not that important are downplaying a pretty important stat. When guys like Orr, Robinson, and Chara have good career plus-minus numbers, that tells you something. It can't all be attributed to line-mates. Remember too that in achieving these good career plus-minus numbers, these premier defensemen are usually playing against the other team's best scorers.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not so big on Chara. Still a great player, but a low end hall of famer in my eyes. Not very useful for transition and not as effective defensively as his reputation suggested. In particular I always found him overrated by the media, both in their productions and in voting. I am very curious to see if he gets rated above Pronger by fans in the future. Pronger was clearly the better player, but award and all star voting probably puts Chara ahead if taken at face value. I would already have Karlsson ahead of Chara.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm not so big on Chara. Still a great player, but a low end hall of famer in my eyes. Not very useful for transition and not as effective defensively as his reputation suggested. In particular I always found him overrated by the media, both in their productions and in voting. I am very curious to see if he gets rated above Pronger by fans in the future. Pronger was clearly the better player, but award and all star voting probably puts Chara ahead if taken at face value. I would already have Karlsson ahead of Chara.

i think the hart and the playoffs discrepancy will always be trump cards for pronger. but yes, on paper it looks closer than it is.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Sjoberg

Not sure how many of our forum membership saw Lars Erik Sjoberg play; but damn - he was a hella good player!!

 

[Howie Hodge]

The biggest problem here is not having a measuring stick for some of the guys that are worth mentioning here.

Lutchenko and Ragulin were big, physical skilled Russian defenseman, but never played in The NHL, only in Russia and internationally.

Vasiliev never did either.

Fetisov and Kasatonov did play in The NHL but were past their primes.

This is a bit like rating some of The Negro Baseball League players. We know the best were great; but how great we'll sadly never know......

 

[24 others]

So:
#1 Lidstrom
#2 Fetisov
#3-6 Karlsson (alphabetical order)
#3-6 Pospisil
#3-6 Salming
#3-6 Vasiliev
#7 Kasatonov
#8 Suchy
#9 Bubla
#10 Sologubov
#11 Chara
#12 Ragulin
#13 Zubov
#14-15 Lutchenko
#14-15 Mahach
#16 Pervukhin
#17 Tikal
#18 Konstantinov
#19 Davydov
#20 Svedberg

I didn't intend to, but it is exactly 20 names

How about Teppo Numminen? 1372 GP, 637 points, cornerstone of the Winnipeg-Phoenix franchise for more than a decade, has his name in the rafters. Strong international record, although it was in a period when Finland didn't really win anything.

Probably the best Finnish defenseman ever (Finns, please correct me!).

 

[Namba 17]

Sjoberg

Yes, very good point. Probably, deserves to be in top-20. I'll think about it.

 

[Namba 17]

How about Teppo Numminen?

Very good player. I don't see him over anyone of my top-20 though. Probably, I'll try to continue my list and find a place for him then.

 

[Sentinel]

I'd argue Fetisov's peak was higher than Lidstrom's. In the 80s he was routinely compared to Bobby Orr. He was the MVP of the Soviet League twice. Lidstrom easily beats him in longevity, but peak-wise Slava was a beast.

 

[feffan]

Nice too see Sjöberg mentioned a few times. Not surprising on this forum. But what he did coming over at age 30 in 74/75 and accomplished is often forgotten. That´s 13 seasons after he made his debute with Leksand in the swedish then highest leauge, division 1. 10 seasons after he made his national team debute. 6 seasons after he was voted the best player in Sweden. What a NA-career a player like him could have had if he was born just under the circumstances of 5-10 years later. Let alone in todays hockey. That he was captain of a NA pro team in only his second season over seas tells you alot about how respected he was.

He could also have been the pre-Juha Widing/Börje Salming if not for "lumpen" (swedish military service for youngsters...). Des Moroney (hard-knacked canadian that is a classic name in Sweden alone I guess...) got him a contract with Yale University when Sjöberg was 19. That´s 1963, one year before Widing. 10 years before Salming cross the pond.

I'd argue Fetisov's peak was higher than Lidstrom's. In the 80s he was routinely compared to Bobby Orr. He was the MVP of the Soviet League twice. Lidstrom easily beats him in longevity, but peak-wise Slava was a beast.

Agreed. I´m surprised that so many see Lidstrom without a debate ahead of Fetisov. Peak Fetisov was to me the greatest defenceman of the 80´s (probably along with peak Potvin of the early 80´s...). And Potvin v.s. Lidstrom also seems like an peak v.s. long prime argument. With a peak as long as Fetisov (about 10 years, late teens to late 20´s...) I could see me ranking him higher than Lidstrom.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Nice too see Sjöberg mentioned a few times. Not surprising on this forum. But what he did coming over at age 30 in 74/75 and accomplished is often forgotten. That´s 13 seasons after he made his debute with Leksand in the swedish then highest leauge, division 1. 10 seasons after he made his national team debute. 6 seasons after he was voted the best player in Sweden. What a NA-career a player like him could have had if he was born just under the circumstances of 5-10 years later. Let alone in todays hockey. That he was captain of a NA pro team in only his second season over seas tells you alot about how respected he was.

He could also have been the pre-Juha Widing/Börje Salming if not for "lumpen" (swedish military service for youngsters...). Des Moroney (hard-knacked canadian that is a classic name in Sweden alone I guess...) got him a contract with Yale University when Sjöberg was 19. That´s 1963, one year before Widing. 10 years before Salming cross the pond.

wow, i had no idea that sjoberg was five years older than salming and nilsson and hedberg. i always just assumed he retired kind of young.

seems like he probably should have come up for consideration at least in the last round of the HOH top 60 d-men project right? among post-1980 guys that i think i have a good handle on, assuming sjoberg's under-30 career is as legit as i think it is, i feel like he should be at least where doug wilson, zubov, and konstantinov are.

 

[Namba 17]

After much deliberation I decided to have Sjoberg as #21 in my list.
Probably, It would be more correct to have players from 14 to 21 in my list a one group, without ranking, as I did for ##3-6 - it's too hard to rate different eras and different championships.

 

[crobro]

Where does Peter svoboda rank?

 

[Namba 17]

#22 Gonchar

 

[Namba 17]

Where does Peter svoboda rank?

I don't know. Decent defenseman

 

[Batis]

Nice too see Sjöberg mentioned a few times. Not surprising on this forum. But what he did coming over at age 30 in 74/75 and accomplished is often forgotten. That´s 13 seasons after he made his debute with Leksand in the swedish then highest leauge, division 1. 10 seasons after he made his national team debute. 6 seasons after he was voted the best player in Sweden. What a NA-career a player like him could have had if he was born just under the circumstances of 5-10 years later. Let alone in todays hockey. That he was captain of a NA pro team in only his second season over seas tells you alot about how respected he was.

Yes considering his age Sjöbergs career in North America really was very impressive. It also gives us an indication of just how great Lennart "Lill-Strimma" Svedberg must have been considering that Lill-Strimma was far more dominant than Sjöberg during their significant career overlap (both born in 1944).

 

[Namba 17]

#23 Kuzkin
#24 Tregubov
#25 Ivanov
#26 Markov
#27 Numminen
#28 Kaberle
#29 Tsygankov
And then there is the next group of players of approximately the same caliber: Gusev, Lyapkin, Billyaletdinov, Ozolinsh, Timonen, Josi, Svoboda, Chalupa, Dvorak... probably, forgot smbody...

 

[MaxV]

I would definitely have Gonchar higher, Pervukhin lower.

 

[Namba 17]

I would definitely have Gonchar higher, Pervukhin lower.

Where exactly?