Barracuda News and Discussion Part 4

[Juxtaposer]

It would appear to me that our prospects are not so bare anymore.

I mean, we still have by far the worse prospect pool in the NHL. Every team has a Balcers, Chekovich, and Halbgewachs, in addition to other better prospects.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I mean, we still have by far the worse prospect pool in the NHL. Every team has a Balcers, Chekovich, and Halbgewachs, in addition to other better prospects.

I somewhat agree. It depends on what you consider prospects, of course.

I do think the Sharks are competitive when it comes to “B” level prospects like Balcers, Gambrell, Bergman...most teams have 2-3 of those players, not the 6+ the Sharks have.

It is the “A” level prospects the Sharks are missing out on...Meier and Labanc would have been at that level. Norris and Roy might be. But many other teams have at least one of those guys if not 2-3 of those players.

 

[UncMike]

Huh, I'm surprised that Fitzgerald has been passed up by guys on ATOs. I thought maybe they'd send him to Allen if he was struggling like Schoenborn and Brodzinski.

Fitzgerald has been out injured .....not sure the nature of the injury

 

[Gecklund]

I mean, we still have by far the worse prospect pool in the NHL. Every team has a Balcers, Chekovich, and Halbgewachs, in addition to other better prospects.

I'd take our prospect pool over MTL, LAK, CHI, WSH, PIT but yeah we are pretty near the bottom but outside of Poehling/Juulsen, Villardi, Jokiharju, Samsonov, and Sprong none of those teams have anything better than us. But if you take our Norris we still have some good prospects.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I'd take our prospect pool over MTL, LAK, CHI, WSH, PIT but yeah we are pretty near the bottom but outside of Poehling/Juulsen, Villardi, Jokiharju, Samsonov, and Sprong none of those teams have anything better than us. But if you take our Norris we still have some good prospects.

I would rather have one A prospect than five B prospects.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I would rather have one A prospect than five B prospects.

I probably would too, but the fate of prospects isn’t guaranteed. That highly-touted “A” prospect could crash. That ho-hum “B” prospect can develop into a top-6 player. Look at how players like Nieto and Coyle are showing they might have a higher ceiling.

Put another way, individually, I don’t think any prospect in the system is likely to become a top-6 forward. However, I think it very likely that a top-6 forward comes out of the prospect pool.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I probably would too, but the fate of prospects isn’t guaranteed. That highly-touted “A” prospect could crash. That ho-hum “B” prospect can develop into a top-6 player. Look at how players like Nieto and Coyle are showing they might have a higher ceiling.

Put another way, individually, I don’t think any prospect in the system is likely to become a top-6 forward. However, I think it very likely that a top-6 forward comes out of the prospect pool.

I don’t disagree with your logic. But Nieto was never an A prospect and Coyle did score 56 points a year ago.

The thing about potential first liners is that if they don’t turn into first liners, they often turn into second liners. I’ll take a potential first liner over two probable second liners. Having one blue chip prospect (for example, Vilardi), makes your prospect pool exponentially better than the Sharks.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I don’t disagree with your logic. But Nieto was never an A prospect and Coyle did score 56 points a year ago.

The thing about potential first liners is that if they don’t turn into first liners, they often turn into second liners. I’ll take a potential first liner over two probable second liners. Having one blue chip prospect (for example, Vilardi), makes your prospect pool exponentially better than the Sharks.

What I meant was that Nieto and Coyle were both thought of as “B” prospects, and Coyle is a legit top-6 winger and Nieto had a strong season for Colorado.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What I meant was that Nieto and Coyle were both thought of as “B” prospects, and Coyle is a legit top-6 winger and Nieto had a strong season for Colorado.

IMO Coyle was an A prospect when he was traded. And Nieto needs more than one solid season to establish himself as a real top-9 forward. But neither are really “high ceilling” types. I mean, they’re 26 years old.

 

[Gecklund]

I don’t disagree with your logic. But Nieto was never an A prospect and Coyle did score 56 points a year ago.

The thing about potential first liners is that if they don’t turn into first liners, they often turn into second liners. I’ll take a potential first liner over two probable second liners. Having one blue chip prospect (for example, Vilardi), makes your prospect pool exponentially better than the Sharks.

Would you take 10 B prospects over 1 A? Outside of Villardi the Kings pool is awful

 

[Juxtaposer]

Would you take 10 B prospects over 1 A? Outside of Villardi the Kings pool is awful

Does Jaret Anderson-Dolan suddenly not exist? He’d be arguably our best prospect.

We don’t have ten B prospects. We have maybe six. Gambrell, Balcers, Ferraro, Chekovich, Chemlevski, Norris. I would take Vilardi and Anderson-Dolan alone over all six of those guys.

 

[Gecklund]

Doesn’t Jaret Anderson-Dolan suddenly not exist? He’d be arguably our best prospect.

We don’t have ten B prospects. We have maybe six. Gambrell, Balcers, Ferraro, Chekovich, Chemlevski, Norris. I would take Vilardi and Anderson-Dolan alone over all six of those guys.

I wouldn't but to each their own. Gregor is arguably a B prospect, same with Roy, Rod, Bergman. Also I understand this is about prospects but even when you look at NHL roster we are good. We had Ryan, Meier, and Labanc graduate and Heed if you considered him a prospect. Also we have Donskoi, Tierney, Hertl on the roster.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I wouldn't but to each their own. Gregor is arguably a B prospect, same with Roy, Rod, Bergman. Also I understand this is about prospects but even when you look at NHL roster we are good. We had Ryan, Meier, and Labanc graduate and Heed if you considered him a prospect. Also we have Donskoi, Tierney, Hertl on the roster.

Roy’s career is done. Rod isn’t going to stick in NA. Bergman hasn’t developed in the last two years. Gregor’s WHL PPG went down this year from last year.

On any other team, those would be considered C prospects. You only consider them B prospects because we don’t have an elite prospect to compare them to. We tend to overrate our prospects around here. Remember when Marek Viedensky, Freddie Hamilton, and Michal Sgarbossa were considered B prospects?

Players who have graduated from being considered prospects are irrelevant here when we’re talking about prospects. Heed is 27 years old. This whole discussion literally came about because someone claimed our prospect pool didn’t look so bad.

Between Balcers, Gambrell, Chemlevski, Norris, and Chekovich, I would be THRILLED to have just two of them become legitimate top-6 forwards. That’s not the sign of a decent prospect pool. We have zero players who have a reasonable chance at being a top-line forward or top pair defenseman. Obviously someone can take an unexpected step forward, but when was the last time that happened? Genuine question. Who was the last Sharks forward to become a top line forward or top pairing defenseman that wasn’t expected to?

 

[Gecklund]

Roy’s career is done. Rod isn’t going to stick in NA. Bergman hasn’t developed in the last two years. Gregor’s WHL PPG went down this year from last year.

On any other team, those would be considered C prospects. You only consider them B prospects because we don’t have an elite prospect to compare them to. We tend to overrate our prospects around here. Remember when Marek Viedensky, Freddie Hamilton, and Michal Sgarbossa were considered B prospects?

Players who have graduated from being considered prospects are irrelevant here when we’re talking about prospects. Heed is 27 years old. This whole discussion literally came about because someone claimed our prospect pool didn’t look so bad.

Between Balcers, Gambrell, Chemlevski, Norris, and Chekovich, I would be THRILLED to have just two of them become legitimate top-6 forwards. That’s not the sign of a decent prospect pool. We have zero players who have a reasonable chance at being a top-line forward or top pair defenseman. Obviously someone can take an unexpected step forward, but when was the last time that happened? Genuine question. Who was the last Sharks forward to become a top line forward or top pairing defenseman that wasn’t expected to?

Meier, Hertl

 

[Juxtaposer]

Meier, Hertl

Neither of those has become anything better than I expected them to be, and never mind that Meier isn’t a first line forward yet and Hertl is borderline at that. They were both early to mid 1st round picks as well. Try again.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Neither of those has become anything better than I expected them to be, and never mind that Meier isn’t a first line forward yet and Hertl is borderline at that. They were both early to mid 1st round picks as well. Try again.

The last one is probably Vlasic.

 

[spintops]

Neither of those has become anything better than I expected them to be, and never mind that Meier isn’t a first line forward yet and Hertl is borderline at that. They were both early to mid 1st round picks as well. Try again.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Roy’s career is done. Rod isn’t going to stick in NA. Bergman hasn’t developed in the last two years. Gregor’s WHL PPG went down this year from last year.

I'm not sure it is fair to say Roy is done.

What about Bibeau?

Don't think this is fair. Hertl has maybe somewhat surpassed Jux's predictions, but Meier is matching them, perhaps just on an accelerated timeline.

 

[spintops]

I'm not sure it is fair to say Roy is done.

What about Bibeau?



Don't think this is fair. Hertl has maybe somewhat surpassed Jux's predictions, but Meier is matching them, perhaps just on an accelerated timeline.

IDK, I remember people hating the pick (and I sincerely apologize if Jux wasn't one of those people), to a thread getting created that Hertl is our best non-Thornton player. Same story with Timo, omg worst pick we've ever made. I think we are a bit unfair to some of our prospects because they aren't flashy.

Everyone loved Goldobin and he was such an elite prospect, but we are down on guys like Timo when they are in the AHL, etc (me too)

 

[Sens]

Roy’s career is done. Rod isn’t going to stick in NA. Bergman hasn’t developed in the last two years. Gregor’s WHL PPG went down this year from last year.

On any other team, those would be considered C prospects. You only consider them B prospects because we don’t have an elite prospect to compare them to. We tend to overrate our prospects around here. Remember when Marek Viedensky, Freddie Hamilton, and Michal Sgarbossa were considered B prospects?

Players who have graduated from being considered prospects are irrelevant here when we’re talking about prospects. Heed is 27 years old. This whole discussion literally came about because someone claimed our prospect pool didn’t look so bad.

Between Balcers, Gambrell, Chemlevski, Norris, and Chekovich, I would be THRILLED to have just two of them become legitimate top-6 forwards. That’s not the sign of a decent prospect pool. We have zero players who have a reasonable chance at being a top-line forward or top pair defenseman. Obviously someone can take an unexpected step forward, but when was the last time that happened? Genuine question. Who was the last Sharks forward to become a top line forward or top pairing defenseman that wasn’t expected to?

I would not worry to much about a legit top line player... Wilson will just trade for one

 

[Jargon]

I would not worry to much about a legit top line player... Wilson will just trade for one

Yeah, I think Wilson does a good job of drafting a bunch of B prospects and then trading a few of them for A players, something he most recently did with Kane.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Yeah, I think Wilson does a good job of drafting a bunch of B prospects and then trading a few of them for A players, something he most recently did with Kane.

This works/has worked so long as a core can be kept in place. The org has done a good job of that to this point. I think something that gets overlooked too is that there is only really 1-2 spots per season for a prospect to come up on the team (this is because the sharks have been successful at retaining their core). So long as that spot can be filled with a useful prospect the team is moving forward. Of course if you can fill that spot with an exceptional player the team is better for it.

But considering the draft position the Sharks typically are at, and that they will move picks to load up at the deadline, the org has done a good job of providing useful enough prospects. While they haven’t had any homeruns in the first round in a while due to their “lower ceiling high floor” strategy: Coyle, Meier, Hertl are all solid top 6 NHL forwards - successful picks by my estimation. All that being said I’ll never understand how they managed to get absolutely nothing from the 3rd round.

 

[Juxtaposer]

IDK, I remember people hating the pick (and I sincerely apologize if Jux wasn't one of those people), to a thread getting created that Hertl is our best non-Thornton player. Same story with Timo, omg worst pick we've ever made. I think we are a bit unfair to some of our prospects because they aren't flashy.

Everyone loved Goldobin and he was such an elite prospect, but we are down on guys like Timo when they are in the AHL, etc (me too)

And I was one of the few that liked the pick. I preferred Teravainen, like everyone else, but I was very optimistic on Hertl immediately following the pick. I woke up at 4am to watch him play in the Czech Extraliiga during the lockout in 2012 and I knew without a doubt that Hertl had first line upside and that there was absolutely no way he wouldn’t at least be a second liner.

With regards to Timo, that’s an incredible amount of revisionist history. I didn’t hate Meier. I hated the pick. I said Meier would be a good complimentary top-6 winger who could drive possession and play on both ends of the ice and that he’d be well suited to compliment a star like Jumbo. That’s what he’s turning into and I love him. But the pick was still brutal. Barzal is a point per game center. Connor scored 30 goals. Rantanen is a point per game winger with all the positive traits of Meier. Boeser is an elite goal scorer worth almost no help. The pick was awful given that all these players were drafted behind Meier, and especially so when all of those but Boeser were consistently ranked ahead of Meier.

Try again, and maybe don’t laugh in my face when my opinions and history with these two players is extremely clear.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

With regards to Timo, that’s an incredible amount of revisionist history. I didn’t hate Meier. I hated the pick. I said Meier would be a good complimentary top-6 winger who could drive possession and play on both ends of the ice and that he’d be well suited to compliment a star like Jumbo. That’s what he’s turning into and I love him. But the pick was still brutal. Barzal is a point per game center. Connor scored 30 goals. Rantanen is a point per game winger with all the positive traits of Meier. Boeser is an elite goal scorer worth almost no help. The pick was awful given that all these players were drafted behind Meier, and especially so when all of those but Boeser were consistently ranked ahead of Meier..

Button had Meier ahead of Barzal. Bobby Mac had Meier higher than Connor. Hockeywriters had Meier ahead of BOTH Barzal and Connor. Even Central Scouting had Meier ahead of both Barzal and Connor.

Wasn't an awful pick. Wasn't a reach.

Barzal went SEVEN picks later and Connor went EIGHT picks later. It's not like teams raced to the podium to take the guys the Sharks passed on. The Meier pick is just fine, especially when you list the 6 players picked right after him:

Rantanen
Crouse
Gurianov
Zboril
DeBrusk
Senyshyn

The only one you would take over Timo is Rantanen, although I would like to see MacKinnon center Timo for a year and see the numbers he could put up.

 

[Gecklund]

Neither of those has become anything better than I expected them to be, and never mind that Meier isn’t a first line forward yet and Hertl is borderline at that. They were both early to mid 1st round picks as well. Try again.

Really? Because I seem to remember a quote from you saying Meier was a second liner at best. Granted this was at the draft but I believe you should take that into consideration.