Speculation: Babcock Turning Matthews Into A Checker & The Leafs Into Boring Chumps

[Gary Nylund]

Don't you kinda feel Babcock is a little over the top unfair with Willie? I get holding players accountable but his effort has been miles ahead of Bozak, yet Bozie still gets regular shifts and is left untouched on his line.

If I'm in Willies shoes, I'm not getting motivation from Babcock tactics, I'm feeling defeated by Babcock. Some creative players need to play free and easy, they need to know if they take a chance, their coach won't light them up if it turns out to be a mistake.

It might have something to do with the fact that good coaches know that every player needs to be treated differently. It may sound counter-intuitive to holding players accountable (and it probably is) but nevertheless, it's a fact that different players respond to different coaching methods. And Bozak is gone next season so there's no more "developing" him whereas we should expect Nylander to be here for a long time so he's worth the investment so to speak.

 

[diceman934]

Held accountable, but not within reason. It's overboard and the standard is obviously change for Nylander to the point where there are Meme and a running joke by people that notice the obvious issue. Playing apologist does not change optics.

There was no attack on Marner, just a comparison. I have praised Marner much in many threads of late.

That was not an attack on anyone specific, just colour to make a point.

Polak ices the puck and takes penalties constantly. He gets caught with his pants down all the time (thats why he takes penalties or ices the puck). If that is good you have low standards for D. Carrick is the superior player.

Polak should have been the 7th D from the start, I thought he was the insurance policy and was fine with that.

I don't see Carrick as a long term Leaf either but I could say the same about Gardiner. Right now we need Carrick, team went 13-3-1 with him and even if that is not all on him, the team looks better statistically with him in the lineup. Eye test or ADV. stats.

When Marner played 12 Games on the 4th was that unreasonable...

The difference for you is that Nylander is your favourite player. I say that he is not being treated any different then Marner was. You complained that he played wing with Kadri as that was a promotion as Kadri line creates offence but you seen that as a slight against Nylander.

Carrick is an extra on the Leafs now as Borgman is much better as the puck moving D man on the 3rd pair. Carrick is more skilled than Polak but more high risk and not at all good for a rookie D man as a partner.

I challenge you to start counting the icings and you will see that he does not simply ice the puck. He has been good for our 3rd pair as he has stabilized his partners game.

 

[thewave]

It might have something to do with the fact that good coaches know that every player needs to be treated differently. It may sound counter-intuitive to holding players accountable (and it probably is) but nevertheless, it's a fact that different players respond to different coaching methods. And Bozak is gone next season so there's no more "developing" him whereas we should expect Nylander to be here for a long time so he's worth the investment so to speak.

This is a valid argument but so far the results are not translating at all. I see a player that was generally consistent getting worse and looking less and less effective or at best having spotty showings.

 

[thewave]

When Marner played 12 Games on the 4th was that unreasonable...

The difference for you is that Nylander is your favourite player. I say that he is not being treated any different then Marner was. You complained that he played wing with Kadri as that was a promotion as Kadri line creates offence but you seen that as a slight against Nylander.

Carrick is an extra on the Leafs now as Borgman is much better as the puck moving D man on the 3rd pair. Carrick is more skilled than Polak but more high risk and not at all good for a rookie D man as a partner.

I challenge you to start counting the icings and you will see that he does not simply ice the puck. He has been good for our 3rd pair as he has stabilized his partners game.

I have never said Nylander was my favorite player ever. I said Kadri is followed by Matthews and that is and has been under my avatar for some time now.

I never said that it was unreasonable. Marner played 12 games on the 4th line turning over the puck consistently. His performances were terrible until he started executing he tidied up his game. He still turns over the puck right now more than Nylander and that is just fact.

Borgman is a good player, I called him on Leafs in training. The only thing that Carrick can not do better than Polak is be 230lbs. That's it and the risk thing is not existent, the risk comes with Polak taking penalties and icing all the time. That's real risk not Carrick with the 13-3-1 record that accompanies his stat line.

I think you are wrong and anyone can count the icings and stupid penalties.

Maul over this one... Polak has basically as many PIM in 13 games as Kadri in over 30 games. Kadri is an agitator. Basically Roman Polak outpaces Matt Martin in PIM/g over a season.

 

[Not My Tempo]

I don’t think anyone can actually convince me that we’re a better hockey team with Polak out on the ice, but whatever, in all honesty I’ve accepted that he’s a part of this team. Can we all agree he takes far too many penalties though? He takes roughly 1 minor penalty every two games he plays. Our PK% is 82%. That means at that rate, roughly every 5 and a half games he plays, he’s going to be directly responsible for a goal against, just because of penalties. I don’t know how you can fix it, but its definitely a problem

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is a valid argument but so far the results are not translating at all. I see a player that was generally consistent getting worse and looking less and less effective or at best having spotty showings.

So far - those are the key words there. Nylander is a work in progress, so is the team as a whole. We'll see how it all pans out but I'm not too worried about Nylander myself.

 

[Mr Hockey]

was that necessary, a little immature no?

sorry man, it was my spellcheck... try not to be overly sensitive, its a good thing

 

[thewave]

So far - those are the key words there. Nylander is a work in progress, so is the team as a whole. We'll see how it all pans out but I'm not too worried about Nylander myself.

When Kadri was getting the tough love, the effort was there. There were positives underlying his declining stats (1st year under Babcock). Nylander on the other hand is showing signs of regression and frustration. If that is going to continue Nylander will not work out. How many games is enough? I would say if Nylander is not a dominant force by January, we have an issue and if he does not bounce back to even last years level of consistency by the end of year. I doubt he will be on this team.

Keep in mind, this management wants to win, they aren't going to screw around and you can see it. If not they would have traded JVR to start the season or probably by now.

 

[david999]

I personally prefer Polak over Carrick on the 3rd pair with Borgman. I am hoping that Kapanen gets into the lineup soon as well for more speed. Sit Moore, move Bozak down to 4th line, put Nylander at center between Kapanen and Marner.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I personally prefer Polak over Carrick on the 3rd pair with Borgman. I am hoping that Kapanen gets into the lineup soon as well for more speed. Sit Moore, move Bozak down to 4th line, put Nylander at center between Kapanen and Marner.

I like the cut of your jib

 

[Daisy Jane]

Don't you kinda feel Babcock is a little over the top unfair with Willie? I get holding players accountable but his effort has been miles ahead of Bozak, yet Bozie still gets regular shifts and is left untouched on his line.

If I'm in Willies shoes, I'm not getting motivation from Babcock tactics, I'm feeling defeated by Babcock. Some creative players need to play free and easy, they need to know if they take a chance, their coach won't light them up if it turns out to be a mistake.

Well. you are assuming that Babcock (or the assistant coaches) communicate with Nylander on a daily basis. Nylander's effort doesn't need to be "miles ahead of Bozak" his effort level needs to be consistent to where Babs needs it to be to make him dependable. but he's not consistent. and he's not 100 percent dependable. Yet. once he shows that it's over.

You can't really be "if you were in Nylander's shoes." because you don't know how Nylander takes coaching and criticisms. YOU'D feel that way - but i would bet that since you are that way Babcock wouldn't treat you the same way he's treating Nylander.

We wanted an organization that make players earn everything, and we have it and yet it's stilla lot of "well, omg, what if people tease him." so who gives a crap, as long as he develops into the player he's needed. (and the reason why he's not harder on the veterans again is that if you want them to be traded you can't be THAT hard on them. they are who they are. if they had say 4 years left here i bet you they'd be treated a lot differently than impending UFAs who probably won't be here come July 1st).

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don’t think anyone can actually convince me that we’re a better hockey team with Polak out on the ice, but whatever, in all honesty I’ve accepted that he’s a part of this team. Can we all agree he takes far too many penalties though? He takes roughly 1 minor penalty every two games he plays. Our PK% is 82%. That means at that rate, roughly every 5 and a half games he plays, he’s going to be directly responsible for a goal against, just because of penalties. I don’t know how you can fix it, but its definitively a problem

Like diceman said - Polak is insurance. We have no depth on D, he's a veteran, he played well in the playoffs last season (after not playing so well going in), he's coming off an injury and he brings toughness that we're sorely lacking. I'm sure he was signed with the idea that if we're lucky, maybe he'll do something for us in the playoffs, what he does in December doesn't really matter. And if it ends up that he's useless in the spring than we haven't lost much by taking the gamble. Bottom line, everyone should just stop worrying about Polak. He's a low-risk gamble and we won't know if it pays off or not for some time yet so just leave him be.

As far as penalties go, I haven't been paying attention to that TBH so I'll stay out of that discussion.

 

[diceman934]

It might have something to do with the fact that good coaches know that every player needs to be treated differently. It may sound counter-intuitive to holding players accountable (and it probably is) but nevertheless, it's a fact that different players respond to different coaching methods. And Bozak is gone next season so there's no more "developing" him whereas we should expect Nylander to be here for a long time so he's worth the investment so to speak.

Bozak is playing like Babcock expects him to play...he is playing like the best Bozak he can be.

Nylander is not playing the best Nylander can be hence holding him accountable to playing the best he can be.

If anyone thinks that Nylander is playing his best hockey right now and giving his best effort then there will be no changing those people’s minds. He simply is not performing up to his capabilities and that is what Babcock wants and so should we.

 

[Menzinger]

"there's super secret stats that nobody knows about that prove that everything Babcock is doing is right but we can never know what they are"
Why? Why is it so hard to admit that there is enough easily accessible information to paint an accurate picture on how we're playing and why it's wrong?

That’s the thing I’ve always found amusing is just because there are internal stats, it doesn’t suddenly mean that teams also stop paying attention to public ones (I mean Babcock literally had Corsi numbers and zone entries/exits written on white boards in the Leafs dressingroom.It also doesn’t mean they’re any better - Carlyle used to allude to stats he used to track and they clearly didn’t help him. There’s no way to vet these internal ones.

I also understand folks wanting to “Defer to authority” when it comes to trusting Babcock 100%, it’s a natural reaction. Is also a lazy way to make a point in an argument. Human beings are all prone to bias, tunnel vision from time to time - NHL coaches included.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When Kadri was getting the tough love, the effort was there. There were positives underlying his declining stats (1st year under Babcock). Nylander on the other hand is showing signs of regression and frustration. If that is going to continue Nylander will not work out. How many games is enough? I would say if Nylander is not a dominant force by January, we have an issue and if he does not bounce back to even last years level of consistency by the end of year. I doubt he will be on this team.

Keep in mind, this management wants to win, they aren't going to screw around and you can see it. If not they would have traded JVR to start the season or probably by now.

If Nylander is frustrated, I'm pretty sure the answer isn't to say oh you poor thing, let's see what we can do to make life easier for you. There are over 50 games left in the season, plenty of time for him to "bounce back".

Cliff notes - don't panic, let Babcock do his job.

Well. you are assuming that Babcock (or the assistant coaches) communicate with Nylander on a daily basis. Nylander's effort doesn't need to be "miles ahead of Bozak" his effort level needs to be consistent to where Babs needs it to be to make him dependable. but he's not consistent. and he's not 100 percent dependable. Yet. once he shows that it's over.

You can't really be "if you were in Nylander's shoes." because you don't know how Nylander takes coaching and criticisms. YOU'D feel that way - but i would bet that since you are that way Babcock wouldn't treat you the same way he's treating Nylander.

We wanted an organization that make players earn everything, and we have it and yet it's stilla lot of "well, omg, what if people tease him." so who gives a crap, as long as he develops into the player he's needed. (and the reason why he's not harder on the veterans again is that if you want them to be traded you can't be THAT hard on them. they are who they are. if they had say 4 years left here i bet you they'd be treated a lot differently than impending UFAs who probably won't be here come July 1st).

I love this post. I bolded that parts that I love the most.

 

[IPS]

That’s the thing I’ve always found amusing is just because there are internal stats, it doesn’t suddenly mean that teams also stop paying attention to public ones (I mean Babcock literally had Corsi numbers and zone entries/exits written on white boards in the Leafs dressingroom.It also doesn’t mean they’re any better - Carlyle used to allude to stats he used to track and they clearly didn’t help him. There’s no way to vet these internal ones.

I also understand folks wanting to “Defer to authority” when it comes to trusting Babcock 100%, it’s a natural reaction. Is also a lazy way to make a point in an argument. Human beings are all prone to bias, tunnel vision from time to time - NHL coaches included.

It's why I love to bring up the Darryl Sutter example and why none of them want to address it. He was truly an HFBoards darling as far as coaches go. When it came cap crunch time and the Kings lost depth this prized hockey mind and best NHL coach did not make the adjustments needed to get the Kings back in the picture. Good thing LA fired their hockey genius coach (whom HFBoards obviously had no business telling how to coach better) cause they're looking a lot better now.

 

[Menzinger]

Can some explain to me exactly why Nylander is on the 4th line?Is it the whole , he is not scoring so lets give him some easier match ups so he can get out of his funk?

Right or wrong it comes down to”tough love” philosophy that Babcock applies to certain players. All we can do is sit back and see if his methods work

 

[Menzinger]

It's why I love to bring up the Darryl Sutter example and why none of them want to address it. He was truly an HFBoards darling as far as coaches go. When it came cap crunch time and the Kings lost depth this prized hockey mind and best NHL coach did not make the adjustments needed to get the Kings back in the picture. Good thing LA fired their hockey genius coach (whom HFBoards obviously had no business telling how to coach better) cause they're looking a lot better now.

Agreed.

There’s also pretty interesting correlation between coaches who get the most praise and teams who have very hot goaltending. It’s a pretty good mask for flaws.

I’ll say again I like Babcock a lot and am glad he’s the Leafs coach but he does open himself up for criticism from time to time.

 

[diceman934]

I have never said Nylander was my favorite player ever. I said Kadri is followed by Matthews and that is and has been under my avatar for some time now.

I never said that it was unreasonable. Marner played 12 games on the 4th line turning over the puck consistently. His performances were terrible until he started executing he tidied up his game. He still turns over the puck right now more than Nylander and that is just fact.

Borgman is a good player, I called him on Leafs in training. The only thing that Carrick can not do better than Polak is be 230lbs. That's it and the risk thing is not existent, the risk comes with Polak taking penalties and icing all the time. That's real risk not Carrick with the 13-3-1 record that accompanies his stat line.

I think you are wrong and anyone can count the icings and stupid penalties.

Maul over this one... Polak has basically as many PIM in 13 games as Kadri in over 30 games. Kadri is an agitator. Basically Roman Polak outpaces Matt Martin in PIM/g over a season.

You never complained once when Marner was on the 4th line in fact you seemed happy about it. Now that is your favourite player it is unfair and mistreatment and picking on poor Willy.

What was the name of the thread you started with Nylander as well as Gardiner.

Saying Kadri is your favourite is a joke and anyone who has been on these boards for a long time knows it.

I explained why Polak is playing over Carrick as the puck mover position is filled on that pairing and Borgman needed a more stable D man as a partner and he has thrived with Polak as his partner.

I asked you to count icings and then perhaps you could see for yourself that Polak does not simply ice the puck when he gets it like you claim. So either provide stats that supports your claim or move on. You claim that it is easy to do so why not do so. But remember you have to chart all d man icings so as to have a real data to compare.

Are you saying all of Polak penalties are stupid? Sure seems like you are.

I am not a Polak fan but as a Leaf fan I can see why he is playing ahead of Carrick.

 

[saffronleaf]

When Kadri was getting the tough love, the effort was there. There were positives underlying his declining stats (1st year under Babcock). Nylander on the other hand is showing signs of regression and frustration. If that is going to continue Nylander will not work out. How many games is enough? I would say if Nylander is not a dominant force by January, we have an issue and if he does not bounce back to even last years level of consistency by the end of year. I doubt he will be on this team.

Keep in mind, this management wants to win, they aren't going to screw around and you can see it. If not they would have traded JVR to start the season or probably by now.

I mean if we're just looking at recent results, then what about Marner and Matthews?

Marner scores a goal once every solar eclipse. He is very soft and weak, probably the softest and weakest player in the league. He spends more time sprawled out on the ice than he does skating. His shot is easily the worst shot of all-time in the NHL.

Matthews has been day-to-day for god knows how long and has looked awful since the initial injury.

Are these players we want to lock-up long-term and tie up cap space?

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's why I love to bring up the Darryl Sutter example and why none of them want to address it. He was truly an HFBoards darling as far as coaches go. When it came cap crunch time and the Kings lost depth this prized hockey mind and best NHL coach did not make the adjustments needed to get the Kings back in the picture. Good thing LA fired their hockey genius coach (whom HFBoards obviously had no business telling how to coach better) cause they're looking a lot better now.

It's true that a coaches pedigree doesn't mean people should have absolute faith in him. I hope you're not suggesting that Babcock should be fired though, it's way too early to be even thinking such thoughts. JMHO.

 

[IPS]

Agreed.

There’s also pretty interesting correlation between coaches who get the most praise and teams who have very hot goaltending. It’s a pretty good mask for flaws.

I’ll say again I like Babcock a lot and am glad he’s the Leafs coach but he does open himself up for criticism from time to time.

Goaltending has been masking our flaws for awhile now and it's blatantly obvious.

One of my favorite things about Babcock is his player development capabilities (Kadri, Gardiner, Rielly mainly, I mean Gardiner's been pretty trash this year but he was great last year).

One of the things I dislike about him most is this breakout system he's trying to impose. This is truly the "square peg and round hole" phenomenon. With how our defensemen move the puck and how well our forwards skate - there is no way in hell our breakout should be this bad.

What the Babcock worship crew needs to understand is that NHL coaches are 100% prone to stupid mistakes - that was what my Sutter example was meant to convey. And they seriously need to stop using the appeal to authority nonsense, it's getting incredibly tiring.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I mean if we're just looking at recent results, then what about Marner and Matthews?

Marner scores a goal once every solar eclipse. He is very soft and weak, probably the softest and weakest player in the league. He spends more time sprawled out on the ice than he does skating. His shot is easily the worst shot of all-time in the NHL.

Matthews has been day-to-day for god knows how long and has looked awful since the initial injury.

Are these players we want to lock-up long-term and tie up cap space?

Matthews should be on the 4th line with Martin and Moore. Accountability across the board is the only way to build trust!

 

[IPS]

It's true that a coaches pedigree doesn't mean people should have absolute faith in him. I hope you're not suggesting that Babcock should be fired though, it's way too early to be even thinking such thoughts. JMHO.

Absolutely not. What I want is for people to acknowledge his very real flaws so that a reasonable discussion could be had.

 

[Mess]

Absolutely not. What I want is for people to acknowledge his very real flaws so that a reasonable discussion could be had.

Who are the ones determining these so called "real flaws", the Fans?

Are internet posters on a message board, with zero coaching experience really qualified to identify the flaws in a world class coach with a winning resume at all levels?

Fans are certainly allowed to express their own opinions on issues, but not sure that makes them right and Babcock wrong.