Speculation: Babcock Turning Matthews Into A Checker & The Leafs Into Boring Chumps

david999

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
1,197
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Maybe Babcock is finally realizing you can't win overplaying certain players (Komarov ) while underutilizing gifted talented players (Marner), and slowing down a thoroughbred offence. People have been saying for the last 2 months that the team looks slow, and now finally Kapanen will get a chance to help the speed game.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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Toronto
When was the last time the Leafs made a great passing play to shred apart a defense or executed a clinical odd-man rush? The last even vaguely nice goal I can think of is Rielly setting up Brown to score against Jarry. The low percentage stretch passages aren't generating a damn thing.

Instead of odd-man rushes, we have Marner/Nylander streaking down the wing, then pulling up and circling back to the blue line because there are 3-4 opposing players back and nobody to pass to. Half of the Leafs' shifts seem to be getting trapped in their own zone for 30 seconds, finally breaking out and then dumping it in to go for a change. The powerplay involves Rielly/Gardiner at the point sliding it to Marner/Nylander, who take weak shots into defenders' shins or miss the net entirely. Kadri gets the puck down low and everyone's standing still waiting for a miracle to happen. It's all predictable and intensely boring.

Last night. Maybe two nights ago. I'm not 100% certain.
 

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
12,240
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Kanada
I liked the theory I read from Nith (I believe). Paraphrasing terribly, the team was allowed a lot of offensive freedom with high-even hockey early on to develop their scoring. Then at some point, he completely changed the style to tight, defensive play to teach this group how to play that style. Now as we hit the stretch run, he's finally combining the two with an optimal lineup. He can loosen the reins to pump up the offense, while knowing they can switch to a defensive focus when needed.

Or maybe this is all giving him too much credit and these kids have just played well enough to rid him of some stubborn tendencies. Either way, the team is fun again.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,316
33,143
St. Paul, MN
I liked the theory I read from Nith (I believe). Paraphrasing terribly, the team was allowed a lot of offensive freedom with high-even hockey early on to develop their scoring. Then at some point, he completely changed the style to tight, defensive play to teach this group how to play that style. Now as we hit the stretch run, he's finally combining the two with an optimal lineup. He can loosen the reins to pump up the offense, while knowing they can switch to a defensive focus when needed.

Or maybe this is all giving him too much credit and these kids have just played well enough to rid him of some stubborn tendencies. Either way, the team is fun again.

Both eye test and stats lines up on whcih playing style for the Leafs.

I read the situation as he had his experimentation period, a bonus of the Leafs near lock for a playoff spot and learned the approiate lessons. Babcock is certainly a very stubborn guy, but he wants to win above all else. And it was pretty clear to even the average fan that some things the team has been trying over the past couple weeks just wasn’t working.
 
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david999

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Jan 21, 2011
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Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.

Here's your gratuity.
 

Incetardis

Registered User
Sep 17, 2013
1,487
80
Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.

I have to smile a bit when I read things like this. This ongoing narrative that Babs doesn't know what he's doing and that the team wins in spite of him is really amusing. Is it really that difficult to believe that the majority of his coaching choices are made deliberately and with significant forethought? He's nearly universally regarded as one of the best in his profession. If the people in the know hold him in such high regard why can't the average fan believe that he might know what he's doing? Sure some of his lineup choices are questionable and frustrating to fans (myself included) but he seems like the type, and I would say this of the whole management group, that sees the bigger picture. Slow playing young talents and getting them to play a responsible and ultimately winning style of hockey seems to be his primary goal since taking over and the results are really starting to show. Tinkering with the lineup and working out kinks in the system in January while the team is comfortably in a playoff spot just makes good sense and dare I say good coaching ;)
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.
But the lines he constructed during that period weren't any different from the lines he used all last year, and to start this year (minus the new additions), and we had some success (though we also had some weaknesses, and teams were starting to adapt to our style of play). This is the biggest mid-season line adjustment we've seen from him since this core first got together last year, so that can't be the reason why we were playing that specific style during that stretch. I believe it's less because Babcock likes a more defensive style of hockey (he's actually explicitly stated the opposite - "I’m a big believer that you don’t want to play defence. Having the puck is way more fun, playing in the offensive zone is way more fun. So let’s build a structure and habits so that we can do that. If you don’t work, if you don’t execute quick in the [defensive] zone, if you don’t slow people down through the neutral zone, you can’t be on offence. I call our end the work zone, neutral ice, the speed zone, and their end the fun zone. Let’s figure out a way to get in it." - Mike Babcock: 23 men, 23 ways to coach - Macleans.ca) and more because we needed to try and find other ways to break into the offensive zone once teams realized they could neuter us with The Trap, and needed to get better at holding teams off in the neutral zone.
What people are suggesting Babcock wanted goes against what he's always spoken about, and what he'd shown us he wanted throughout the entirety of his tenure here thus far. We were all about skill and speed and killing teams with offense all the way up until it became apparent that that couldn't be the only way to win. This winning streak has been built on a combination of unleashing that speed and skill and applying the lessons we've been working on. There's still been some dump-and-chase elements incorporated in our game when necessary, and we stymied the attacks of both New York teams on back-to-back nights, making them look like they couldn't get a single thing going offensively.
And while Babcock does love to win every game, this is what he said prior to his first season as the Leafs coach - "This is going to be a long process; it's going to take time. This is going to be a massive, massive challenge. ... I love to win. I have a burning desire to win. But I also want to win in the end. I don't just want to get in the playoffs; I want to win. I want to be here with these guys and build a team off the ice and on the ice that the fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs can be proud of." - Babcock intends to change culture of Maple Leafs
So again, I don't think he felt that he needed to implement a specific style that he stubbornly believed was the right way to win, tried it for 2-3 months, realized it was no good and scrapped it after finally listening to the reason of the masses. I think he understands that teams need to be able to do lots of things well in order to create and sustain excellence. Speed and skill alone was never gonna cut it moving forward.
 
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Slyfox

Registered User
Dec 12, 2016
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Toronto
Well they were playing slow and were dumping and chasing. Now not so much. This thread is a good reminder of what happened.
 

Superstar

"Be water, my friend."
Jun 25, 2008
12,550
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Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.

What kind of nonsense is this?! Is the goalie not part of the team?! The team came out flying this season, but other teams adapted and started trapping us in the neutral zone...and remember, Andersen wasn't so hot in October either...Babcock made adjustments and tweaks, and continues to do so...with patience...for this young team, he is teaching them continuously but he's also experimenting to see what works...if you don't do those things with a young and developing team in the early years (which we're in right now), when are you going to do them? Folks get frustrated because they want instant gratification when it is all part of the growing process...Babcock made that clear since the beginning when he was hired...and The Process is part of the master plan...we are very fortunate to have such a strong front office staff in Shanny, Lou and company, and such a good coach in Babcock...and if you don't think they work together, plan together, and talk frequently about the "master plan" and not sway from it, then you're pretty delusional because that's how championship teams are built...and they want to win!
 
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ITM

Out on the front line, don't worry I'll be fine...
Jan 26, 2012
4,620
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Anybody that believes the changes in the lineup that occurred prior to the Chicago game was all part of some master plan Babcock
had, are giving him way too much credit. The team for half the season played a slow dump and chase game because of the way Babcock constructed his lines with the personnel he wanted playing. The only reason the Leafs were close in many of those games was because of the goaltending. Despite what was obvious to many fans and hockey observers, Babcock wanted to continue playing his old school hockey system with a team that could not be as successful as one that plays with speed and skill. Babcock keeps telling the fans and media that he wants to win every game, and I believe he believes the slower, dump and chase game was the way to go. However, it is being born out that maybe some of the fans and media (former coaches and players) know a little something as well.

I think attributing the cause for the recent turnaround (short as it's been) presumes a couple of untenable premises: One, that the Leafs were anywhere near as bad as some (here) have repeatedly tried to insist they were and secondly, that peer pressure was the difference in causing Babcock to alter his approach.

Even if we recall last's years Leafs where there were stretches of free-wheeling hockey, the team wasn't playing in spite of Babcock's alleged dump and chase model, they were playing (for the most part) to the strengths of Babcock's model. Same coach, same team, same results with respect to stretches of play.

It's the height of delusion to believe fans and media have somehow sobered a doddering Babcock back to clarity. You have to make the case for last (good luck) year also being the result of similar pressure. Now I haven't looked back to see if there were similar threads, but on the spot, memory serves that while the young guns were setting records, no one was pointing out their value as armchair GMs/coaches and how that reality was worth pointing out just how instrumental the fans and <gasp!> the media were in affecting the game in and game out results, incidentally led by our coach.

I don't think the notion that Babcock (and the rest of the TML staff) have a plan greater than what is revealed to fans and media is all that out of the ordinary to speculate on. I've repeated numerous times the necessity to maximize assets in a limited period of time before other assets could be implemented and I think that has proven right so far, as the All-Star break passed and as the Trade Deadline approaches. That doesn't make my observation particularly praise-worthy when the process has been repeated by other championship organizations for decades. But for whatever reason - perhaps the newness of having competent management? - our fanbase is as schizophrenic as any fanbase can be when it comes to hindsight.

And is it surprising that the hockey we've seen recently resembles the hockey that entertained us last year had the same coach both years? It shouldn't be. But selective hindsight being what it is - selective - I'm sure more will begin to wipe the fog of the present euphoria and take that next painful step to remember that Mike Babcock is a much better coach and much better hockey mind than he's being given credit for...right now.
 

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