Speculation: Babcock Turning Matthews Into A Checker & The Leafs Into Boring Chumps

[stickty111]

the thing is that last year it would have been fine since Nylander was still getting acclimated to the league and it was more of a developmental season as Babcock stated numerous times. This year however he said he tries to win every night. yeah I'm sure he still wants to instill work ethic into our young players and continue to develop them, but you can't say you try to win every night and staple one of our top offensive talents to the 4th line for multiple games at a time

I dont disagree with you. I like his accountability approach but its not consistent for every player(cough cough Polak cough). However it could be Nylander is held to a higher standard and Babcock feels he could be an absolute superstar which is why Babcock focuses on him more, and trying to make him as good as he feels be.
PS: im one of those people who feel Nylander has higher upside then Marner and thats even ignoring Nylander's chance to play C. Its not too discredit Marner at all.

 

[stickty111]

OK Now I got it, if the team sucks its the players, and if they do good its the coach, got ya!

No if the team has great talent, but arent playing well, thats on the coach.
If the team doesnt have much talent, but are still playing well, thats not on the coach.

 

[ToMaLe]

No if the team has great talent, but arent playing well, thats on the coach.
If the team doesnt have much talent, but are still playing well, thats not on the coach.

So we have great talent and are not playing well, so according to you its Babcock.

 

[stickty111]

So we have great talent and are not playing well, so according to you its Babcock.

Yes which is why I said Babcock deserves criticism for the way the team is playing lately.
Are you not reading?

 

[ToMaLe]

Yes which is why I said Babcock deserves criticism for the way the team is playing lately.
Are you not reading?

Then why are you argueing with me lol

 

[stickty111]

Then why are you argueing with me lol

Im not arguing. Im saying you cant blame Babcock for that 30th place performance.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So we have great talent and are not playing well, so according to you its Babcock.

the weird thing is that Babcock actually seemed to get more out of the less talented roster that we had last year. The question surrounding him was if he could only succeed with a ridiculously talented roster, but so far he's shown to achieve better results (IMO) with lesser players at his disposal

 

[stickty111]

the weird thing is that Babcock actually seemed to get more out of the less talented roster that we had last year. The question surrounding him was if he could only succeed with a ridiculously talented roster, but so far he's shown to achieve better results (IMO) with lesser players at his disposal

Thats the strange part, but too be fair he got a lot out of a talented team last season.

 

[ToMaLe]

Im not arguing. Im saying you cant blame Babcock for that 30th place performance.

That is arguing lol, because I can blame Babcock for the 30th place finish. If you dont have a stacked team, Apparently this is were you finish, 30th.

 

[diceman934]

I also never complained when Nylander was demoted to the 4th line. He started playing terrible. It's in the post history, I was one of the first people on his case.

Nylander was executing every pass, every play with freakish efficiency. That's not the case now. Jake Gardiner went +30 or better and was our best defender and took over 1st pairing duty. The titles were based on the situation at the time. Both players are good players.

Even if I count icing and penalties I need to do it over many games. I do however know that Polak ices the puck more than anyone on this team just by observation and memory. Is there a site that tracks icings?

Kadri has always had my support except for a period of time when his off ice issues came out. You or anyone can research that. I have posts in 2014 calling him our 3rd line C of the future but also saying that has bottom tier 1C potential. That call is essentially correct right now as he is playing the role of shut down C for us now.

Your opinion of Polak is simply being challenged. I don't believe that is the case with him and argued why with stats.

Polak takes penalties because he makes mistakes. I don't know if you played hockey but generally people out of position are forced to take penalties or ice the puck. It's their lack of ability translating into frustrations and error.

I am of the opinion Carrick is simply better. Simple as that.

What is simple is you ignoring the obvious...I asked you why you were not bitching and moaning about Marner being on the 4th line and said you were in favour of this, but not so when it comes to Nylander now it is Babcock hates him and is ruining him etc it was the same last year.

You calling out Babcock when it affects your favourite player is what I have been pointing out.

Then you attempt to justify your position by saying look at Bozak...Bozak has seen his ice time reduced 5 on 5 and is a player who is playing his best. It may not be up to your standards but he is playing hard.

Then Polak who for people who pay attention has played well since given a second chance this season. As I have stated many times I am not a fan of Polak but I do recognize a player who is keeping it simple and helping his D partners game. Borgman has been fantastic since being paired with Polak and we are seeing a good young D man develop as a result.

I think that holding players accountable is the best approach to building a winning team.

Your “I do not know if you played hockey “ comment is a joke. I see no need to post a resume on here but will say look at my profile for the answer.

 

[stickty111]

That is arguing lol, because I can blame Babcock for the 30th place finish. If you dont have a stacked team, Apparently this is were you finish, 30th.

So your going to make an irrational comment?
Babcock is the only reason we made the playoffs last season. Hows that?

 

[ToMaLe]

So your going to make an irrational comment?
Babcock is the only reason we made the playoffs last season. Hows that?

Well you finally came out and said what you think. But I respectfully disagree, I think the players helped some.

 

[diceman934]

That is arguing lol, because I can blame Babcock for the 30th place finish. If you dont have a stacked team, Apparently this is were you finish, 30th.

That 30th place finish may have been his best coaching job of all time.

I commend him for that fantastic finish. Him along with Lou put us in a position to ice a horrible team and he coached them in a way to ensure we lost going down the stretch.

Playing Sparks in goal was genius as he was a bad AHL goalie at.the time.

 

[X66]

That 30th place finish may have been his best coaching job of all time.

I commend him for that fantastic finish. Him along with Lou put us in a position to ice a horrible team and he coached them in a way to ensure we lost going down the stretch.

Playing Sparks in goal was genius as he was a bad AHL goalie at.the time.

Sending Brown back the minors after 6 points in 7 games was also a great move for the tank.

 

[ToMaLe]

That 30th place finish may have been his best coaching job of all time.

I commend him for that fantastic finish. Him along with Lou put us in a position to ice a horrible team and he coached them in a way to ensure we lost going down the stretch.

Playing Sparks in goal was genius as he was a bad AHL goalie at.the time.

I actually agree with you, and Ive said this before in posts. We would not have Matthews right now.

 

[stickty111]

Well you finally came out and said what you think. But I respectfully disagree, I think the players helped some.

What is wrong with you? I dont believe that for an instant. I only said it because you made an irrational statement as well.
None of mine or your statements are true, but if you want to believe he is the reason we finished 30th, I respectfully disagree, I think the lack of players helped some.

 

[ToMaLe]

What is wrong with you? I dont believe that for an instant. I only said it because you made an irrational statement as well.
None of mine or your statements are true, but if you want to believe he is the reason we finished 30th, I respectfully disagree, I think the lack of players helped some.

lmao I know you were not serious. And I guess we agree to disagree. And like I said in the above post, Babcock coaching the Leafs to 30th was a good thing not bad.

 

[Daisy Jane]

the thing is that last year it would have been fine since Nylander was still getting acclimated to the league and it was more of a developmental season as Babcock stated numerous times. This year however he said he tries to win every night. yeah I'm sure he still wants to instill work ethic into our young players and continue to develop them, but you can't say you try to win every night and staple one of our top offensive talents to the 4th line for multiple games at a time

which is why i think the Leafs are really trying to straddle the line between development etc.
it does (and can be seen as) two face when babcock says something and does something else. i will give everyone that. but i think it's more of, putting it out there from now that this team knows what it is like to constantly have the weight of pressure. Like basically from Feb. on last year they had it (like the excitement etc) and this year the expectation is always there.

but at the same time I feel he (or at least Shanahan let's just bypass Lou), is really pressing upon babcock to continue to Develop. hence the contradictions.

 

[stickty111]

​

lmao I know you were not serious. And I guess we agree to disagree. And like I said in the above post, Babcock coaching the Leafs to 30th was a good thing not bad.

Fine maybe I misunderstood. If you want to argue that we finished last because of the tanking choices Babcock made then yes I agree, but if you want argue we finished last because Babcock was a terrible coach that year then I disagree

 

[diceman934]

Sending Brown back the minors after 6 points in 7 games was also a great move for the tank.

Yes and playing Holland and Froese a lot when both were clearly AHL players.

 

[IPS]

Coaches are fired all the time and certainly not infallible. When the results aren't there then they get dismissed based on performance.

That coach however is fired by a qualified GM and replaced with another qualified coach who will deploy a different system and get better success. The fans themselves didn't have anything to do with that, they only complained about all the losing.

Babcock took a 3oth place Leafs team and coached them into the playoffs, and this year he has the Leafs in the top 5 of the NHL standings and top 5 in goals scored.

Where is the "real flaws" that you speak of?.

Too me it seems Babcock is getting success not failure from the team, and if you listened and believed message board posters, than the only thing holding the Leafs back from a Stanley Cup is line combos and once Babs starts listening to these message board suggestions and using their input everything will be great.

The results were 100% there for Sutter - he won 2 cups in 3 years coaching LA. He did not get fired based on performance, he got fired based on his inability to adjust. Saying he got fired on performance is plain dishonest, he got incredible results in his years prior to being fired.

I have no idea what you are trying to convey in your 2nd paragraph. The qualification of a GM has absolutely zero to do with how valid it is for a fan to criticize a coach's decision - which is why this argument was started to begin with. Obviously the fans had nothing to do with a coach being replaced.

And your third paragraph is just a blatant strawman. Nowhere did any of us say that line combos are the only thing holding us back from a Stanely Cup. This is a complete fabrication and it hyperbolizes what my stance actually is.

 

[Mess]

The results were 100% there for Sutter - he won 2 cups in 3 years coaching LA. He did not get fired based on performance, he got fired based on his inability to adjust. Saying he got fired on performance is plain dishonest, he got incredible results in his years prior to being fired.

After winning his 2nd Cup, Sutter missed the playoffs in 2 of his next 3 years and 1 first round exit to show for his body of work. So he deserved to be replaced on performance..

Babcock has gone from 30th to playoffs to currently top 5 in the league standings as of today.

So I repeat what exactly is he doing wrong or what are these "real flaws" of his you keep talking about? All I see is an upward trajectory of success.

 

[Mr Hockey]

They are better as they address sample size issues, subjectivity is much less of a concern, and it is result-driven so nothing in the data itself will be missing, just in the extrapolation.

It's impossible to have any kind of evaluation system that isn't flawed.

Curious, can you give your opinion of what adv stat you consider reliable?

side note: I have to download Firefox, Chrome is terrible with this site, I cant even edit a post, preview it.

 

[therealkoho]

Truth doesn't have to be pretty man. Nothing against you or anything, but pretty much everyone knows Nylander is getting the gears from Babcock for no real good or obvious reason. The only exception could be that Nylander has off ice or a personal problem with Babcock and it's carrying over. We obviously won't know any of that because of how the team is tight lipped but compared to Marner, Nylander is absolutely treated differently under similar circumstances.

he is most assuredly not "getting the gears" from the coach, so just please leave off with the speculative stuff

there was a play the other night, where Nylander made a half-assed effort on a loose puck, Babcock did not sit him after that surprisingly enough, but I can tell you, Kadri was in his ear as soon as they got back to the bench and it didn't look like a pleasant "great play" between line-mates

 

[Nithoniniel]

Curious, can you give your opinion of what adv stat you consider reliable?

side note: I have to download Firefox, Chrome is terrible with this site, I cant even edit a post, preview it.

Depends on what you mean reliable.

I use Chrome, haven't had any issues at all.