Babcock thread: Decision Expected 5/20/15 (SEE MOD WARNING IN OP AND POST 568)

[Unfriendly Ghost]

It has absolutely nothing to do with Ilitch. He spends stupid money on the Tigers, no one in that organization offers up insipid comments about playing or coaching for the Tigers for less money.

This is completely coming from Ken Holland and I'm well past whining about how he runs the organization. The bottom is about to fall out and soon enough we will be able to acquire elite talent near the top of the draft. Will the Dolla Bill Wirtz mentality leave as soon as Holland retires?

We can only hope.

Perhaps. The only comments I've heard were to the tune that Ilitch was getting tired of the situation, and not Holland. That's why I interpret it that way.

 

[Henkka]

What is Babcock's current salary?

2 million per year?

 

[Vladdy84]

Get rid of the trash and hire Blash.

My dream is coming true!

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

I would assume there would be significant signing bonuses if it's that much

Fair enough. I don't know how that works in this case as I was under the impression players get huge signing bonuses to circumvent the cap, which doesn't apply here. I was just trying to point out, given what we know about the monetary figures of the deal, we can figure out the term which is probably 8 years or less, which isn't drastically higher than some initially predicted. So maybe that 50 mil figure is legit.

I wrote it.

Ah, ok. I mean, it's a fair point and may very well be true, but I'm just not sure I agree. Holland has offered market rate to quite a few UFAs recently, and in some instances more than what those players eventually accepted. That's with the restrictions of the salary cap to think about. I don't see it being a rational reason in this case, and if that is indeed what is going on than yeah, it's a big problem.

 

[InjuredChoker]

What is Babcock's current salary?

2 million per year?

that's the number i've seen thrown around.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[ashenhigh]

Perhaps. The only comments I've heard were to the tune that Ilitch was getting tired of the situation, and not Holland. That's why I interpret it that way.

Source?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Source?

Owner Mike Ilitch has a reputation for being loyal and treating players and management well, but some in the organization believe the process is getting on his nerves and aren't sure if he will budge on his offer.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/is_mike_babcock_willing_to_tak.html

 

[Pavels Dog]

Looking forward to this whole saga ending. I hope he stays, but his departure would also spell an interesting new era beginning for our team.

If he really goes to Buffalo though... oh boy. That would be interesting to watch. I don't care how much money he gets and how good a coach he is, I think turning that ship around is at least a 3 to 4 year project. They have a lot of promise, but they need goaltending and many players are probably a few years away from being differencemakers in the league.

Oh well, whatever happens I look forward to the reactions of various fans around the league.

This is spot on. If you're a Glendening, Andersson, Dekeyser or Helm (safe, low risk players) Babcock will play your legs off. If you're a Hudler, Smith or Tatar (high risk, high potential players) your leash is about as short as my arm.

Part of the reason I would love for Babcock to move on and Blashill come up is to see what type of player Smith could be with a coach that encourages him to reach his potential rather than ride his ass into mediocrity.

This is such a myth. Tatar has had a ton of really, really bad giveaways and attempts to deke past players as the last man on the powerplay, and not once has Babcock reduced his icetime for it. Same goes for Jurco who had bad turnovers and rough defensive plays last year, but never got benched and remained a fixture on the Sheahan-Tatar line.

Hudler had a relatively hard time getting icetime, but he still spent basically his entire last season with us on a line with Z and Filppula. Smith is not given any favors but he was on the 1st pairing last playoffs and rarely rides the pine, his play just hasn't been screaming "needs more icetime" either.

Some of you are acting like Smith/Babcock is a Subban/Therrien situation. It's not.

 

[sepster]

Get rid of the trash and hire Blash.

My dream is coming true!

I love this. Fingers crossed, Vladdy. Fingers crossed.

 

[Run the Jewels]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/is_mike_babcock_willing_to_tak.html

Oh yeah, the always quotable "some in the organization". Didn't hear a peep about paying Prince Fielder $214 million over 9 years and then trading him two years after that deal was signed. Or paying Miguel Cabrera nearly $300 million. I don't follow the Tigers closely but I would be seriously surprised if these types of sour grapes quotes were made when the Tigers were negotiating with Fielder, Cabrera or Verlander. I'm sure it was more like "please take our money!"

Babcock was given until the 22nd and it sure sounds like he'll let Holland know either today or tomorrow. All that's left is the whining from "some in the organization".

 

[SimplySolace]

Oh yeah, the always quotable "some in the organization". Didn't hear a peep about paying Prince Fielder $214 million over 9 years and then trading him two years after that deal was signed. Or paying Miguel Cabrera nearly $300 million. I don't follow the Tigers closely but I would be seriously surprised if these types of sour grapes quotes were made when the Tigers were negotiating with Fielder, Cabrera or Verlander. I'm sure it was more like "please take our money!"

Babcock was given until the 22nd and it sure sounds like he'll let Holland know either today or tomorrow. All that's left is the whining from "some in the organization".

Speaking of baseball (which I know little about), wasn't the Scherzer situation similar to this? Player/coach turns down original offer to see what's out there and Illitch not budging when they circle back?

 

[sepster]

This is such a myth. Tatar has had a ton of really, really bad giveaways and attempts to deke past players as the last man on the powerplay, and not once has Babcock reduced his icetime for it. Same goes for Jurco who had bad turnovers and rough defensive plays last year, but never got benched and remained a fixture on the Sheahan-Tatar line.

Hudler had a relatively hard time getting icetime, but he still spent basically his entire last season with us on a line with Z and Filppula. Smith is not given any favors but he was on the 1st pairing last playoffs and rarely rides the pine, his play just hasn't been screaming "needs more icetime" either.

Some of you are acting like Smith/Babcock is a Subban/Therrien situation. It's not.

Not a myth. Keeping Tatar, Jurco and Smith in the lineup doesn't mean much when over the past 3 years the Wings have had to play every healthy body just to ice a complete lineup. Keeping them on the ice is an entirely different situation than allowing them to play in a position that complements their strengths. Babcock wants every player in his lineup to play like a 4th line grinder first, than chip in some offense if they can. That works for the Glendenings and Anderssons of the team, but it significantly hampers the Smiths and Hudlers.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not a myth. Keeping Tatar, Jurco and Smith in the lineup doesn't mean much when over the past 3 years the Wings have had to play every healthy body just to ice a complete lineup. Keeping them on the ice is an entirely different situation than allowing them to play in a position that complements their strengths. Babcock wants every player in his lineup to play like a 4th line grinder first, than chip in some offense if they can. That works for the Glendenings and Anderssons of the team, but it significantly hampers the Smiths and Hudlers.

The only thing that hampers Smith is himself. That guy has whiffed on more offensive chances than any other guy on our roster. It doesn't make sense to play him in offensive roles when he never makes anything out of it. Anytime he gets open 1-on-1 with the goaltender he sends the puck two miles wide or into the chest. A new coach COULD give Smith a fresh start and improve his play, but it's unlikely it makes a big difference.
And I don't know what the problem was with Hudler playing 1st line minutes an entire season. Can't look at how good he is now and compare it to 5 or more years ago when he was very inconsistent and had long, long stretches of completely disappearing.

Tatar and Jurco have both been in the lineup over guys like Andersson, Cleary, Weiss or many options in Grand Rapids, Tatar was with Datsyuk all season and Jurco has gotten many chances in the top 9. What are these strengths that aren't being complemented? Smith would get an offensive role if he showed even half the offensive ability of someone like Zidlicky. He doesn't.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oh yeah, the always quotable "some in the organization". Didn't hear a peep about paying Prince Fielder $214 million over 9 years and then trading him two years after that deal was signed. Or paying Miguel Cabrera nearly $300 million. I don't follow the Tigers closely but I would be seriously surprised if these types of sour grapes quotes were made when the Tigers were negotiating with Fielder, Cabrera or Verlander. I'm sure it was more like "please take our money!"

Babcock was given until the 22nd and it sure sounds like he'll let Holland know either today or tomorrow. All that's left is the whining from "some in the organization".

Ignores this being out there.

Jeff Moss @JeffMossDSR · 2h 2 hours ago
Hearing from multiple sources that nobody in the Wings organization wants Mike Babcock back EXCEPT Ken Holland.

Doesn't fit the Holland narrative you're peddling though.

Under Dombrowski they refused to pay Scherzer, Granderson and some others. What that says is Mike Ilitch has looked at this and sees no reason to green-light a substantial bidding war for Holland.

Cabrera and Verlander were special... I guess Mr. I doesn't feel sentimental about Babcock delivering up to expectations with what has been provided, not enough to get engaged in an outrageous bidding war. Best of luck Marty Lapointe, great contract Hudler is the treatment Babs is seemingly getting.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Be careful what you wish for.

I wish for Babs to go to Buffalo and coach the Sabres and live a happy life.

I wish for Blash to coach the Detroit Red wings and live a happy life.


Now how are you going to mess it up, wizard

 

[Electric Eric]

I wish for Babs to go to Buffalo and coach the Sabres and live a happy life.

I wish for Blash to coach the Detroit Red wings and live a happy life.


Now how are you going to mess it up, wizard

Blackhawks win the Cup.

 

[8snake]

Jeff Moss throws nothing but garbage against the wall and every once and a while something will stick. When did he become a trusted "insider"?

 

[Heaton]

Jeff Moss throws nothing but garbage against the wall and every once and a while something will stick. When did he become a trusted "insider"?

Yeah, who the **** is Jeff Moss?

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

This is such a myth. Tatar has had a ton of really, really bad giveaways and attempts to deke past players as the last man on the powerplay, and not once has Babcock reduced his icetime for it. Same goes for Jurco who had bad turnovers and rough defensive plays last year, but never got benched and remained a fixture on the Sheahan-Tatar line.

Hudler had a relatively hard time getting icetime, but he still spent basically his entire last season with us on a line with Z and Filppula. Smith is not given any favors but he was on the 1st pairing last playoffs and rarely rides the pine, his play just hasn't been screaming "needs more icetime" either.

Some of you are acting like Smith/Babcock is a Subban/Therrien situation. It's not.

No one is comparing Smith to Subban, nor would anyone compare Montreal's media to ours or Smith & Babcock's personalities to Subban & Therrien's, all of which are significant factors in that situation. Smith has been misused though. He's been put in roles he's not suited for, paired with partners that bring out his worst qualities and not given a chance to do the things he excels at.

Then there's Jurco. At one point late last year I remember Jurco trying to dangle around a few people and getting burned. He hasn't tried anything like it since. The problem is, his game has always been skill based, which is why we took him when we did. Yet Babcock insists on putting him on the fourth line with Stone Hands Luke and a guy who you may as well call a 3rd defenseman, and we wonder why Jurco's offense has regressed?

As for Hudler, well there are years worth of archived threads that discussed how Babcock didn't use Hudler properly. There were also arguments that suggested his system limited Filppula's offense. Given what both of them have done since moving on, it seems maybe those arguments weren't too far off. But their usage isn't even the real issue here, the real issue is that neither wanted to play under Babcock anymore. I mean, does it take losing a Datsyuk quality player before we've finally had enough of him driving talent out of town? And may I add, based on a few rumors, we're pretty close to that.

And finally Tatar. This is one instance where I can't argue. I can point to him being one of, if not the most dynamic offensive players we've had since the cap was instituted and say maybe that buys him a little leniency. I can point to him being a great personality in the locker room and say maybe that buys him a little more. Who knows, as that is just speculation, but he is most certainly the exception, not the rule. And lets not forget, he was benched early last season and there have been articles suggesting that he and Babs haven't exactly had the perfect relationship.

I've always said this thing is about personalities. Certain people don't jive well with certain personalities, and if you can't handle Babcock's domineering approach and don't play his game, there will be issues. You say it's a myth that Z, Dats, Filppula, Hudler, Commodore, Shanny (and possibly Stevie Y, thought I heard that somewhere but maybe wrong) have had issues with Babcock. I strongly disagree.

 

[Heaton]

Then there's Jurco. At one point late last year I remember Jurco trying to dangle around a few people and getting burned. He hasn't tried anything like it since. The problem is, his game has always been skill based, which is why we took him when we did. Yet Babcock insists on putting him on the fourth line with Stone Hands Luke and a guy who you may as well call a 3rd defenseman, and we wonder why Jurco's offense has regressed?

Jurco played in the top 9 and top 6 for the first 50 games this season, he had 3 goals to show for it. He also played on the 2nd PP for the majority of the season. Jurco regressed because he wasn't very good.

As for Hudler, well there are years worth of archived threads that discussed how Babcock didn't use Hudler properly. There were also arguments that suggested his system limited Filppula's offense. Given what both of them have done since moving on, it seems maybe those arguments weren't too far off. But their usage isn't even the real issue here, the real issue is that neither wanted to play under Babcock anymore. I mean, does it take losing a Datsyuk quality player before we've finally had enough of him driving talent out of town? And may I add, based on a few rumors, we're pretty close to that.

Hudler got more money from Calgary. He left Detroit to play in the KHL and then came back, if he hated Babcock so much he never would've came back so quick.

I've always said this thing is about personalities. Certain people don't jive well with certain personalities, and if you can't handle Babcock's domineering approach and don't play his game, there will be issues. You say it's a myth that Z, Dats, Filppula, Hudler, Commodore, Shanny (and possibly Stevie Y, thought I heard that somewhere but maybe wrong) have had issues with Babcock. I strongly disagree.

Shanahan also had issues with Bowman, not sure what your point is.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Jeff Moss throws nothing but garbage against the wall and every once and a while something will stick. When did he become a trusted "insider"?

There's no doubt he has a source: Gregg Henson. The thing is Henson is no longer in Detroit as he broadcasts out of Pittsburgh. I would never use Moss as a source, however he is reasonably plugged in enough to have known Rick Carlisle was on his way out with the Pistons and that Jim Harbaugh would be the new coach at Michigan.

All this tells us is that it's obvious Babs has told the Wings about his decision and now people inside the organization are throwing shade. If Babs signed a new deal they'd be pumping his tires.

 

[Heaton]

There's no doubt he has a source: Gregg Henson. The thing is Henson is no longer in Detroit as he broadcasts out of Pittsburgh. I would never use Moss as a source, however he is reasonably plugged in enough to have known Rick Carlisle was on his way out with the Pistons and that Jim Harbaugh would be the new coach at Michigan.

All this tells us is that it's obvious Babs has told the Wings about his decision and now people inside the organization are throwing shade. If Babs signed a new deal they'd be pumping his tires.

One of the worst kept secrets in the past decade.

 

[Fugu]

Oh yeah, the always quotable "some in the organization". Didn't hear a peep about paying Prince Fielder $214 million over 9 years and then trading him two years after that deal was signed. Or paying Miguel Cabrera nearly $300 million. I don't follow the Tigers closely but I would be seriously surprised if these types of sour grapes quotes were made when the Tigers were negotiating with Fielder, Cabrera or Verlander. I'm sure it was more like "please take our money!"

Babcock was given until the 22nd and it sure sounds like he'll let Holland know either today or tomorrow. All that's left is the whining from "some in the organization".

Yes, but we had our very vocal, foot in mouth Devellano publicly saying this cannot go on for very long because it affects a lot of other people.

To me, that says he (and perhaps others) were not pleased that Babs rebuffed them last summer and is now entertaining other offers to see if anything is more intriguing.

I don't think the Wings are accustomed to being kept waiting, even if Holland is letting Babs do exactly that.

Ignores this being out there.



Doesn't fit the Holland narrative you're peddling though.

Under Dombrowski they refused to pay Scherzer, Granderson and some others. What that says is Mike Ilitch has looked at this and sees no reason to green-light a substantial bidding war for Holland.

Cabrera and Verlander were special... I guess Mr. I doesn't feel sentimental about Babcock delivering up to expectations with what has been provided, not enough to get engaged in an outrageous bidding war. Best of luck Marty Lapointe, great contract Hudler is the treatment Babs is seemingly getting.

There's a bit of pride in this franchise, and no, they shouldn't get into a bidding war. This isn't the same situation you had when all they needed was a tweak or two to the roster and a top coach like when Babs joined in 2005.

 

[Fugu]

Jurco played in the top 9 and top 6 for the first 50 games this season, he had 3 goals to show for it. He also played on the 2nd PP for the majority of the season. Jurco regressed because he wasn't very good.



Hudler got more money from Calgary. He left Detroit to play in the KHL and then came back, if he hated Babcock so much he never would've came back so quick.



Shanahan also had issues with Bowman, not sure what your point is.

He was still Wings property. He basically had to put in those years with the Wings in order to ever become an UFA and/or have a shot at any other NHL team.

The point is that Shanahan made no bones about the fact that he left due to the treatment he got from Babs.