Babcock thread: Decision Expected 5/20/15 (SEE MOD WARNING IN OP AND POST 568)

[Heaton]

There's a bit of pride in this franchise, and no, they shouldn't get into a bidding war. This isn't the same situation you had when all they needed was a tweak or two to the roster and a top coach like when Babs joined in 2005.

It's unfortunate Holland has let the franchise fall into a vortex of confusion and uncertainty. This team has no identity, no timeline, and no true direction. It's a be-surprised-we-made-the-playoffs each year from here on out.

 

[Heaton]

He was still Wings property. He basically had to put in those years with the Wings in order to ever become an UFA and/or have a shot at any other NHL team.

The point is that Shanahan made no bones about the fact that he left due to the treatment he got from Babs.

And? Shanahan didn't fit in, the fans wanted him gone. Now Babcock is the bad guy?

 

[Bench]

Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, a revolving door of coaches is worse than having a stubborn but competent coach. And I'd be worried about the Wings coaching future if they weren't so damn good at grooming assistants into NHL caliber coaching material. Babcock was certainly part of that, so credit to him there.

Blashill looks ready to take the reigns and I'd have the utmost confidence in his ability to continue icing a team that can make the playoffs and challenge the better teams.

And if that doesn't work out, there's quite a few former Wings coaches floating around the league that might want a crack at leading the big club one day.

 

[Run the Jewels]

One of the worst kept secrets in the past decade.

No, they were very far ahead of everyone else. Henson has connections to at least one of the University of Michigan regents. At best everyone else was on radio silence but Henson held fast to his narrative from very early on. He may have gotten some details wrong and that could be due to not being local and having a wider range of sources but they were far out ahead of nearly everyone else.

The bottom line is that Henson is Moss' primary source for most Detroit sports tips.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yes, but we had our very vocal, foot in mouth Devellano publicly saying this cannot go on for very long because it affects a lot of other people.

To me, that says he (and perhaps others) were not pleased that Babs rebuffed them last summer and is now entertaining other offers to see if anything is more intriguing.

I don't think the Wings are accustomed to being kept waiting, even if Holland is letting Babs do exactly that.



There's a bit of pride in this franchise, and no, they shouldn't get into a bidding war. This isn't the same situation you had when all they needed was a tweak or two to the roster and a top coach like when Babs joined in 2005.

Agree, just pointing out it would seem Holland has been the most patient and accommodating to Babcock in this process.

I said last summer we should not engage in this. I have been disappointed where it went. I understood why they would do it, but I have been ready to move on for a couple years. Glad it ended on a higher note (if it has) where Babcock was a little better the last two years.

Still it is a privilege to coach this team and be a part of this organization. I am sure those feelings cropped up again during this process. When it was clear he wanted to look I don't think they thought much of it. But once they started watching it happen I bet it drove several of them a little crazy. Not over fear of rejection but flat out annoyance.

People now will say sour grapes, but most seem to indicate they weren't all that flexible on moving their negotiation points. I think perhaps several in the Wings organization were interested in moving on and this process hammered home the point. Holland was left as one of his few big defenders, trying to still deliver Babcock in the fold when he probably shouldn't have. Something he is universally criticized for when it is a player that yes brought us glory but hasn't lived up to what he should deliver for the last several years, Babs is no different only this time he actually angered the owner and some in management.

Turn the page, the Wings will be fine. I hope Babcock doesn't ruin Eichel's chances at becoming the best American player ever. Sadly I can already see the Canadian spin on why he is that great and it makes me want to well...

 

[Heaton]

No, they were very far ahead of everyone else. Henson has connections to at least one of the University of Michigan regents. At best everyone else was on radio silence but Henson held fast to his narrative from very early on. He may have gotten some details wrong and that could be due to not being local and having a wider range of sources but they were far out ahead of nearly everyone else.

The bottom line is that Henson is Moss' primary source for most Detroit sports tips.

Meh, it's s very sensationalist message they're putting out there.

 

[Bench]

Turn the page, the Wings will be fine. I hope Babcock doesn't ruin Eichel's chances at becoming the best American player ever. Sadly I can already see the Canadian spin on why he is that great and it makes me want to well...

Meanwhile, the legend of Patrick Kane will continue to grow.

 

[Heaton]

Turn the page, the Wings will be fine. I hope Babcock doesn't ruin Eichel's chances at becoming the best American player ever. Sadly I can already see the Canadian spin on why he is that great and it makes me want to well...

If you're going to be great, you're going to be great regardless. It's amazing to me that people think Babcock dums down players just because he (and the rest of the good coaches in the league) stress defense. Eichel can't be a two-way player? Some of the best players in the league are 200 feet players. That's how you win.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If you're going to be great, you're going to be great regardless. It's amazing to me that people think Babcock dums down players just because he (and the rest of the good coaches in the league) stress defense. Eichel can't be a two-way player? Some of the best players in the league are 200 feet players. That's how you win.

Regardless, I am pretty sure we know the spin that will come down on why that is if it takes place now.... Can see the coaches corner segments playing out right now in my head.

 

[Fugu]

And? Shanahan didn't fit in, the fans wanted him gone. Now Babcock is the bad guy?

I don't remember that being the case. He had 40 G that year, or something close.

Babs first year was kind of rough, Heater. Even Yzerman was thinking of retiring by November, but then Lang got injured, so he stuck around.

 

[Bench]

If you're going to be great, you're going to be great regardless. It's amazing to me that people think Babcock dums down players just because he (and the rest of the good coaches in the league) stress defense. Eichel can't be a two-way player? Some of the best players in the league are 200 feet players. That's how you win.

True, but coaching emphasis can certainly put a damper on your offensive output. Mike Modano was better off for having Hitchcock turn him into a 200 foot player, but it's also criminal he only eclipsed 40 goals one time (his first year in Dallas).

The playoff success helps take the sting away from that, but do you know how many times his "good for an American" stats get brought up? I see where TZE is coming from here, because we've seen it unfold before.

 

[Fugu]

Yeah, a revolving door of coaches is worse than having a stubborn but competent coach. And I'd be worried about the Wings coaching future if they weren't so damn good at grooming assistants into NHL caliber coaching material. Babcock was certainly part of that, so credit to him there.

Blashill looks ready to take the reigns and I'd have the utmost confidence in his ability to continue icing a team that can make the playoffs and challenge the better teams.

And if that doesn't work out, there's quite a few former Wings coaches floating around the league that might want a crack at leading the big club one day.

Long and short of it is that everyone is replaceable.



Except Lidstrom.

 

[Heaton]

I don't remember that being the case. He had 40 G that year, or something close.

Babs first year was kind of rough, Heater. Even Yzerman was thinking of retiring by November, but then Lang got injured, so he stuck around.

Well yeah - they were leaving the country club atmosphere and getting back to work. Shanahan always had effort issues, that's why he had issues with Bowman. The Wings did win 52 (?) games that year.

True, but coaching emphasis can certainly put a damper on your offensive output. Mike Modano was better off for having Hitchcock turn him into a 200 foot player, but it's also criminal he only eclipsed 40 goals one time (his first year in Dallas).

The playoff success helps take the sting away from that, but do you know how many times his "good for an American" stats get brought up? I see where TZE is coming from here, because we've seen it unfold before.

Yeah, but Wings players have had great seasons under Babcock. Datsyuk had back to back 97pt seasons. Zetterberg had 40 goals, Hossa had 40 goals. He wasn't playing a Nashville/Minnesota system. When Babcock had skill, the skill was shown. Once Lidstrom retired and Rafalski retired, we were left without puck movers. We had to change the system to stay competitive. Ian White and Kyle Quincey aren't picking up the slack.

The last 6 years have been incredibly different from what we're used to. But we've had zero upgrades from Holland, a year and a half from the kids and a regressing Datsyuk, Z, and Kronwall. Not sure what people expected - Babcock did what he could to make this team as competitive as possible. Some people think it should've been better, I feel that's wishful thinking.

 

[Bench]

Long and short of it is that everyone is replaceable.



Except Lidstrom.

Pretty much. Damn do I miss Lidstrom. Probably my favorite player to watch ever.

Babcock had a nice run but nothing is forever. And when getting to the 2nd round is your big accomplishment since 2009, maybe forever isn't the best idea. Without a big coaching buffer like Babcock running the lines, I also think this exposes Holland to more criticism.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The point is that Shanahan made no bones about the fact that he left due to the treatment he got from Babs.

And Shanny would cut off his left arm to get Babs to Toronto.

You're trying to blame Babcock for every struggling player or every guy that 'got away'. Come on. No good coach is easy to play for. A boss that you like and you hang out with after work and who never critiques your work or pushes you is a bad boss, same goes for coaching. No one is requesting trades out of Detroit, guys like Sammy, Bert, Quincey, Williams etc etc have left and have been more than willing to return to play under Babs. Swedish players gave Babs mad respect when asked about him on swedish TV during Olympics, yes they also hinted they'd love to beat him but that's just natural.

Hudler wasn't this good when he struggled to get icetime, and our team was much better thsn Calgary's. Jurco left his hands in slovakia, Babs didn't force him to stop scoring by putting him out on the PP for most of the season, and Smith just isn't showing the tools to be a guy you play in an all-out offense role. A coaching change COULD be good for the team but don't expect Blashill to ice a 1st line of Jurco-Larkin-Pulkkinen and a Smith-Sproul 1st pairing next season.

 

[Heaton]

And Shanny would cut off his left arm to get Babs to Toronto.

You're trying to blame Babcock for every struggling player or every guy that 'got away'. Come on. No good coach is easy to play for. A boss that you like and you hang out with after work and who never critiques your work or pushes you is a bad boss, same goes for coaching. No one is requesting trades out of Detroit, guys like Sammy, Bert, Quincey, Williams etc etc have left and have been more than willing to return to play under Babs. Swedish players gave Babs mad respect when asked about him on swedish TV during Olympics, yes they also hinted they'd love to beat him but that's just natural.

Hudler wasn't this good when he struggled to get icetime, and out team was much better thsn Calgary's. Jurco left his hands in slovakia, Babs didn't force him to stop scoring by putting him out on the PP for most of the season, and Smith just isn't showing the tools to be a guy you play in an all-out offense role. A coaching change COULD be good for the team but don't expect Blashill to ice a 1st line of Jurco-Larkin-Pulkkinen and a Smith-Sproul 1st pairing next season.

The coach is always the scapegoat when things go sour. Chicago fans are unrelenting on Q and wanted him fired 100x this year. LA fans want Sutter gone. Tampa fans wanted Cooper gone during the series with us when they were down. Every coach in the league gets the same criticisms. Unless Blashill wins the cup next year some people who are fans now will think he's incompetent.

 

[Bench]

Yeah, but Wings players have had great seasons under Babcock. Datsyuk had back to back 97pt seasons. Zetterberg had 40 goals, Hossa had 40 goals. He wasn't playing a Nashville/Minnesota system. When Babcock had skill, the skill was shown. Once Lidstrom retired and Rafalski retired, we were left without puck movers. We had to change the system to stay competitive. Ian White and Kyle Quincey aren't picking up the slack.

The last 6 years have been incredibly different from what we're used to. But we've had zero upgrades from Holland, a year and a half from the kids and a regressing Datsyuk, Z, and Kronwall. Not sure what people expected - Babcock did what he could to make this team as competitive as possible. Some people think it should've been better, I feel that's wishful thinking.

While what you're saying has merit, I also feel like it's a bit of a low bar to say Babcock creates a team that produces offense when he has one of the best teams to hit the NHL since the lockout. The 2008 and 2009 teams were exceptional, flanked at every position with top talents in their prime. It would have been criminal for those teams not to produce.

I know this gets brought up a lot, but these last Olympics really do say a lot about Babcock. He had access to the top offensive talents in the world and he has guys like Rick Nash grinding out low scoring victories. It worked, that USA game was painful to watch, but it says a lot about what Babcock sees as ideal. He had the ideal roster and they were a defensive juggernaut.

I don't feel like another coach over the last few years would do any better for the Wings, though. The rosters have been underwhelming, particularly on the blueline, which is being shown over and over to be the most important position, tied with center.

 

[Heaton]

While what you're saying has merit, I also feel like it's a bit of a low bar to say Babcock creates a team that produces offense when he has one of the best teams to hit the NHL since the lockout. The 2008 and 2009 teams were exceptional, flanked at every position with top talents in their prime. It would have been criminal for those teams not to produce.

I know this gets brought up a lot, but these last Olympics really do say a lot about Babcock. He had access to the top offensive talents in the world and he has guys like Rick Nash grinding out low scoring victories. It worked, that USA game was painful to watch, but it says a lot about what Babcock sees as ideal. He had the ideal roster and they were a defensive juggernaut.

I don't feel like another coach over the last few years would do any better for the Wings, though. The rosters have been underwhelming, particularly on the blueline, which is being shown over and over to be the most important position, tied with center.

I guess my point is, good players are going to be good players. If Eichel has the potential to be the 'best American born player ever', he's going to show it even if defense is stressed. Hudler was good here, even though defense was stressed. Datsyuk and Z obviously. I'm not going to keep listing, but if you're elite, you're elite, end of story.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

Pretty much. Damn do I miss Lidstrom. Probably my favorite player to watch ever.

Babcock had a nice run but nothing is forever. And when getting to the 2nd round is your big accomplishment since 2009, maybe forever isn't the best idea. Without a big coaching buffer like Babcock running the lines, I also think this exposes Holland to more criticism.

Yeah, someone else said that in here somewhere I think, and I agree 100% -- everyone will know who's calling the shots once Babcock is gone.

 

[Bench]

I guess my point is, good players are going to be good players. If Eichel has the potential to be the 'best American born player ever', he's going to show it even if defense is stressed. Hudler was good here, even though defense was stressed. Datsyuk and Z obviously. I'm not going to keep listing, but if you're elite, you're elite, end of story.

I'm not in any particular disagreement, but I think TZE is more eluding to the fact that a defensive system could give the perceived notion that he wouldn't be producing at expectations.

Remember when Ovechkin tried to play defense and was slammed for not scoring? He's been very vocal about the fact when he tries to play 200 feet, as you put it, he gets dogged for not producing. And it's true.

Toews only gets a free pass on his offense because he keeps taking his team deep in the playoffs.

 

[Heaton]

I'm not in any particular disagreement, but I think TZE is more eluding to the fact that a defensive system could give the perceived notion that he wouldn't be producing at expectations.

Remember when Ovechkin tried to play defense and was slammed for not scoring? He's been very vocal about the fact when he tries to play 200 feet, as you put it, he gets dogged for not producing. And it's true.

Toews only gets a free pass on his offense because he keeps taking his team deep in the playoffs.

Yeah, but he still scored 40 goals.

The one thing I do like about Babcock potentially leaving is perhaps the board will start holding some of the players more accountable.

 

[Bench]

Yeah, someone else said that in here somewhere I think, and I agree 100% -- everyone will know who's calling the shots once Babcock is gone.

Babcock is a big personality in the hockey world and has kind of acted like a shield, in many ways. Holland running the team with a rookie coach like Blashill is going to leave him squarely to blame for whatever happens now.

Will this be the page that needed to be turned, or will Holland fall from grace like contemporary Lou Lamoriello?

 

[Bench]

Yeah, but he still scored 40 goals.

The one thing I do like about Babcock potentially leaving is perhaps the board will start holding some of the players more accountable.

Right? Smith is going to get exposed. Finally. I'd rather eat crow with that kid, but I don't see anything there that makes me think he'll start producing offense.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Babcock is a big personality in the hockey world and has kind of acted like a shield, in many ways. Holland running the team with a rookie coach like Blashill is going to leave him squarely to blame for whatever happens now.

Will this be the page that needed to be turned, or will Holland fall from grace like contemporary Lou Lamoriello?

Holland has been gearing up for a fairly aggressive crack at the roster over the next 10 months anyway. We will see what happens there.

In my opinion Babcock's decision doesn't change the overall trajectory of how the team appeared to be operating and what they were pushing towards. I hope Blashill can speed up the youth movement in terms of those younger guys but we will see.

Either way to Heaton's point and several around here you include Bench there is no way the movement of Babcock doesn't radically change things for all in the organization. He is a big figure in the hockey world, there is no way this doesn't impact that dynamic. There is no way we don't see a change in how things operate on the day to day and how the team is evaluated in the media and by the fans, even by the organization itself. I am excited about that in all honesty. I think we need to shake things up, need new voices and the next series of moves that they have building towards have more options now in my opinion.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Yeah, but he still scored 40 goals.

The one thing I do like about Babcock potentially leaving is perhaps the board will start holding some of the players more accountable.

You have to keep in mind that Nick Lidstrom only won 4 of his 7 Norris trophies while Babcock was coach. It's clear that Babcock was holding him back.