The Kingslayer
Registered User
7.5 for 7 yrs and a NTC for a guy who cant defend much at all isnt ideal. We seriously need to pray to odin that Makar becames that dude where having a guy like Barrie is a luxury.
Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII
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The Kingslayer
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Thats like saying looks arent Susan Boyles strong suit. Just call her ugly and get over it. Barrie isnt good in his own end thats just a fact but he makes up for it on the other side of the puck.
McMetal
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Z was far, far from a #2D last year... way to inconsistent on both ends of the ice.
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I just think it gets over exaggerated. I’ve never thought he was great in his own end, but I think he’s just mediocre.
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Puck retrieval, for one. Nobody on our team can retrieve a puck in our zone and get it out with a crisp pass or skating out on their own like he can. Girard slows down to brace for the forechecker. EJ and Nemeth just wrap it around the boards. Zads can make a nice first pass but not on Barrie’s level. Barberio does backhand flips.
People seriously underestimate the value of rapid puck retrieval and breakouts in today’s game. I can go on, but this is the most elite part of his defensive game. Can’t be ignored.
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McMetal
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I mean, defense is what happens when you don't have the puck. Positioning, reads, stick work, physicality. It's impossible to play defense with the puck on your stick, and unless you are elite enough to dictate the play when you're on the ice, you will sometimes be forced to play without the puck, and Barrie is not good at that part of the game. Breakout passing is valuable, but it isn't defense.
Avs_19
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That's one of the tough parts about making a trade now. Makar has ridiculous potential so you can make assumptions but no one really knows how he'll adapt to the NHL. Him going back to college means we likely won't know next offseason either.
For sure. Barrie's great at retrieving the puck and moving it. That's something that gets overlooked but it's an important part of defensive hockey. That's why it was disappointing to see him shy away from contact and just let the Preds take the puck on many occasions in the playoffs. He was able to play in every game so maybe he was being smart on some of those plays but Girard took the hits to make plays.
Foppa2118
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I think it would be better defined as a success based on the situation. Not that it was a win based on the value of ROR + McGinn vs all the assets received.
Compher may end up more a middle six complimentary player, Z may never rise above a #3, and Meloche, Morrison, and Smirnov may never make the NHL. Zadorov and Compher are still really good additions to the depth of team though, and were much needed at the time.
The future of the Avs blueline without a big physical two way defenseman like Z who can chip in 20+ points, would be way different. They simply don't have a physical presence that can solidify a 2nd pairing like that in the pipeline, and teams almost never give them up unless an ROR level player goes the other way.
In hindsight, the better move probably should have been to move Duchene and make ROR the permanent #2C. It wasn't completely clear that Duchene would never find his way as a true #1C at the time, and the Avs didn't see how they could build the team they wanted at the time by adding ROR's asking price to Duchene, Landy, and Nate and EJ's future raises, along with all the holes on the blueline.
That said, with the team in a different position now, and Duchene gone, I'd take back ROR in a heartbeat depending on the asking price. Even though I think he's still slightly overpaid at $7.5M.
Lots of things? 75% of the time he handles himself very well defensively outside of the fact he isn't physical in the slot because of his size.
Yes he's prone to some lapses and bad plays but so is 99% of other Dmen in the league. His lapses happen more often then other guys keeping him from being an elite Dman. but nobody around her thinks he's elite. He's a high end #3 who can play above his role for short periods and do well in the role. He's not great defensively but he's not bad either and most the time he plays at a level above what replacement level would be.
Foppa2118
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He wasn't quite at a #2 level, but he wasn't that far off either. He was inconsistent, but he's right there with most #3's looking to find that #2 level to their game. Especially for a then 22 year old.
He just needs to take one more step in his development and find a little more consistency. It may never happen, but it's not some lofty goal far off in the distance either.
A multi round playoff run would really boost his rep as well, like it does for most physical defenseman in defensive roles.
McMetal
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We're just seeing a very very, very different player on the ice. He's great with the puck on his stick, but it's getting the puck away from the other team that he struggles with.
22FUTON9
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Contrary to what I've been saying earlier I'm really starting to think keeping barrie for the remaining years and hope Girard, makar (or timmins but I don't know if he's that kind of player) develop into that stud offensive defenseman might be the best thing to do. Let him walk or trade him at the deadline if we're not contenders by that time. I doubt Girard and Makar will develop the offensive game barrie has right now but at the same time I think they'll be much better defensively, which kind of makes up for their offense.
I think another thing we're forgetting is that he'll be 29 by the end of his contract. He's a guy that relies on his skating a lot and I'm not too comfortable giving him the term he's going to want as well.
Btw I'm not saying we can't win with Barrie or anything but he's bad defensively. I don't think there's anyway around that. I still get the argument of wanting to pay him because of his elite offense but saying he deserves the money because he's great offensively and also not as bad defensively is wrong imo.
I think another thing we're forgetting is that he'll be 29 by the end of his contract. He's a guy that relies on his skating a lot and I'm not too comfortable giving him the term he's going to want as well.
Btw I'm not saying we can't win with Barrie or anything but he's bad defensively. I don't think there's anyway around that. I still get the argument of wanting to pay him because of his elite offense but saying he deserves the money because he's great offensively and also not as bad defensively is wrong imo.
Foppa2118
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I think that 75% is being pretty generous. I'd say it's more like 25% of the time he handles himself well defensively.
He has the occasional good play defensively that I think people like to point to as evidence that he's not that bad, but these are few and far between and they don't make up for all the other plays.
When he ends up in 1 on 1 coverage, which is a big part of playing defense, the majority of the time he just shadows his assignment around the ice. Basically just trying not to get danced around, but letting them skate with the puck and pass to whoever they want.
When he's in more of a zone coverage, he doesn't break up a lot of passes with his stick, and he's got a bad habit of puck watching and letting his assignment get wide open for passes. This happens somewhat often actually. He's not great at defending players in front of the net, but that's to be expected given his physical limitations. If he gets pressured deep in his zone, he also has a bad habit of rushing passes off the mark that end up in turnovers.
This kind of defensive coverage leads to sustained pressure, momentum swings against the Avs, building the confidence of the opposition, and the tiring out of Avalanche players. Not to mention high quality scoring chances, and the occasional goal against.
There are lots of situations that he is below average at in the defensive zone, but what helps negate some of the impact is that he and the coaches have found ways to get him out of the D zone with the puck. When he's on his game, he's very good at skating the puck out of the zone if he has a little time and space to start with.
He also benefits from having so few D zone starts as well. Out of the 240 defenseman that had 20 or more games in the NHL last season, there were only 8 that had a lower percentage of D zone starts.
Sergachev - 29.8
DeAngelo - 33.5
Franson - 34.2
Shattenkirk - 34.6
Krug - 34.8
Kronwall - 34.9
Hannifin - 36.9
Heed - 37.0
Butcher - 37.6
Barrie - 37.6
NHL Advanced Stats / Analytics | Hockey-Reference.com
With all of that said, he's an elite 5 on 5 PMD, that really found his PP game as well last season. This makes up a lot for his defensive shortcomings, but those shortcomings also negate some of his offense.
He's a high risk player that's one of the best in one area of the game, and not so good in the other. That's why he's so polarizing, because not everybody prefers a defenseman like that.
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McMetal
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Exactly. If you love his offense enough to be willing to pay him 7.5m+ (I think 7.5 is the lowest possible end of what he will ask for), then that is a valid point of view, just say "I don't care that he's bad defensively" instead of trying to make him into something he's not.
agentblack
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I would gladly take Barrie at 7x7.5M
He is worth it. The dude drives offense.
Most offensively elite defenseman in the league are below average in their own zone. You still need those guys to win.
If Makar can fill his role that's fine, but I think we are underestimating how difficult it is to find a defenseman who can put up 57 points in 68 games like Barrie did this year. We get rid of him and we are immediately looking to fill the hole with a similar defenseman. He is home grown. If it takes 7.5M to sign him in 2 years just do it. Although he likely signs for more than 7.5/yr.
He is worth it. The dude drives offense.
Most offensively elite defenseman in the league are below average in their own zone. You still need those guys to win.
If Makar can fill his role that's fine, but I think we are underestimating how difficult it is to find a defenseman who can put up 57 points in 68 games like Barrie did this year. We get rid of him and we are immediately looking to fill the hole with a similar defenseman. He is home grown. If it takes 7.5M to sign him in 2 years just do it. Although he likely signs for more than 7.5/yr.
Foppa2118
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I'm not too concerned with his skating going away, but the fact that he'll be 29 at the start of his next contract is rarely mentioned. They'd be paying top dollar for an offensive defenseman, whose numbers likely will decline in his 30's. That's why price could be such a big hurdle during his negotiations.
lonelybadger
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Foppa2118
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McMetal
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There is now a decent chance that Tavares gets a deal done with Lou.
I really believed we had a shot with him that would have made us a heavyweight contender for years. If Lou can convince him that he can fix that team, I think he stays. Money is no object, they'll pay whatever he asks. It's just a question of whether he believes he would waste the rest of his prime years by signing. Under Snow, the answer was assuredly yes. Now, maybe not so much.
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