Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I agree with Pokecheque. Newport doesn’t bother me in the least.

One thing I wonder about the whole O’R thing: the original disagreement happened at a time when bridge contracts were still a thing (with little purpose, really). I wonder if O’R was one of the players who was out to help blow that up. I’m probably overthinking it.



Hmm. I’ve never really thought about how much per season a NTC is worth in salary reduction. Is there a ‘standard’ amount or percentage?

I dont think there is a standard, but I'd say it can definitely play a factor. Especially for a guy like Barrie who's had his named floating in trade rumors for what, 3 years now? Have to imagine if he could get a good NTC or even a NMC for 4-5 years of a new contract he signs that he'd be willing to take at least somewhat of a discount for that added stability in his deal.

 

[OwenNolan]

If I had to choose between Zadorov or O'Reilly today I'm taking Zadorov hands down.

Zadorov is turning into an enforcer and a legit #1 pairing Dman. O'Reilly on the other hand is a me first player. Teams don't generally win with guys like him in their core.

Add in the fact that we got Compher out of the deal and it was a no brainer.

 

[MarkT]

If I had to choose between Zadorov or O'Reilly today I'm taking Zadorov hands down.

Zadorov is turning into an enforcer and a legit #1 pairing Dman. O'Reilly on the other hand is a me first player. Teams don't generally win with guys like him in their core.

Add in the fact that we got Compher out of the deal and it was a no brainer.

I'm glad you made this comment as I was about to say something very similar. I would only add A.J. Greer, Cam Morrison and Denis Smirnov as they are all a result of that 2nd round pick we got in the deal. Regardless of if O'Reilly is overpaid (I think he's marginally overpaid), he's still not worth as much as all those players combined. Not by a long shot.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

If I had to choose between Zadorov or O'Reilly today I'm taking Zadorov hands down.

Zadorov is turning into an enforcer and a legit #1 pairing Dman. O'Reilly on the other hand is a me first player. Teams don't generally win with guys like him in their core.

Add in the fact that we got Compher out of the deal and it was a no brainer.

Zadorov is missing so many things to be a #1 defensemen. Never will be. There’s just zero offense.

Calling O’Reilly a me-first player is clearly board room talk, because on the ice there isn’t a more team-first player. His teammates and coaches know this, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Compher looks to be a bottom 6, run of the mill player.

We got a nice defenseman, some loser already gone to Russia, and two forwards that look to be bottom 6 players with major holes(Compher/Greer). Due to the O’Reilly hate on this board, everybody thinks it was a huge win. Not really.

 

[agentblack]

Im hoping Z takes a significant step fwd in the offense dept, kinda looks like he is.

But he needs pp time , not sure he's gonna get that

 

[henchman21]

Zadorov is missing so many things to be a #1 defensemen. Never will be. There’s just zero offense.

Calling O’Reilly a me-first player is clearly board room talk, because on the ice there isn’t a more team-first player. His teammates and coaches know this, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Compher looks to be a bottom 6, run of the mill player.

We got a nice defenseman, some loser already gone to Russia, and two forwards that look to be bottom 6 players with major holes(Compher/Greer). Due to the O’Reilly hate on this board, everybody thinks it was a huge win. Not really.

I overall tend to agree with this... now ROR's price tag I think sways things towards the Avs. $7.5m on average (especially with that structure) is just too much to be paying for ROR. Not that ROR isn't good, but even today, 7.5m is #1C money and back then, it was high end #1C money. When you are paying a #2C that level (not paying 2 centers that price, but a #2C that price), you can't fully complete a roster and that salary has to be shed somehow someway.

If Z can find offense to the tune of ~30-35 points a season and becomes a solid #2D, then the Avs clearly won the trade as #2D > #2C. If Z only ends up a shutdown, middle pairing guy that is reliable for 20-22 minutes... the trade is a pure wash. If Z doesn't end up that level of player, the Sabres won.

 

[RockLobster]

AB-

My understanding is that O'Reilly didn't want a bridge deal, but I'm not sure he was someone being used by Newport to "blow up the idea" of bridge deals. I believe he wanted a 5 year deal at ~5M AAV. And the Avs (more specifically Eric Lacroix) laughed/scoffed at that, and then basically shit on him as a player in negotiations (again, that's my understanding), and the proceeded to offer him the Duchene bridge deal (2 years 3.5M) or a 5 year deal at 3.4M AAV (5 years 17M).

But my understanding of the negotiation timeline is that it was after EL basically tore into O'Reilly as a player that he left everything on the business side to his agents and he stayed out of it. And think about this--if the Avs had taken that 5x5, or even negotiated off of it (maybe a little longer at a slightly higher/lower AAV) or simply taken the years but tried to move down on the AAV slightly, I firmly believe there's a good chance he would've signed, the bad blood that EL largely helped created could've been avoided, and there's a good chance he'd be our 2C right now. Perhaps @RoyIsALegend may feel like he is able to provide slightly more insight, if he so chooses, but in the mean time based on what I've gathered over the years about this, I'm pretty firm in my belief that what I've heard is closer to the truth (of course, I also understand that most people on this board know I'm a humongous homer for Ryan O'Reilly and therefore am biased, but what can you do *shrug*)

 

[MarkT]

Zadorov is missing so many things to be a #1 defensemen. Never will be. There’s just zero offense.

Calling O’Reilly a me-first player is clearly board room talk, because on the ice there isn’t a more team-first player. His teammates and coaches know this, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Compher looks to be a bottom 6, run of the mill player.

We got a nice defenseman, some loser already gone to Russia, and two forwards that look to be bottom 6 players with major holes(Compher/Greer). Due to the O’Reilly hate on this board, everybody thinks it was a huge win. Not really.

Never? He's a 23 year old defenseman who has already shown stretches of being a top pair quality defenseman. I wasn't aware scoring ability with a requirement of defense. I also recall seeing him show flashes of offensive ability numerous times, but he never gets powerplay time and is often paired with more offensive minded defensemen. I think the Avs want him to take on a more defensive, shut-down role, so of course his offensive numbers aren't going to be great.

As for Compher, again, you're talking about a 23 year old, and even if he's a bottom 6 guy, that's useful. Greer is even younger at 21, so it's not surprising his game has holes. And I suppose you're just discounting Cam Morrison and Denis Smirnov as automatic busts or something?

I know I for one don't hate O'Reilly. He's one of my all-time favourite Avs - I just think the players we got for him are more valuable than he is.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Zadorov is missing so many things to be a #1 defensemen. Never will be. There’s just zero offense.

Calling O’Reilly a me-first player is clearly board room talk, because on the ice there isn’t a more team-first player. His teammates and coaches know this, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Compher looks to be a bottom 6, run of the mill player.

We got a nice defenseman, some loser already gone to Russia, and two forwards that look to be bottom 6 players with major holes(Compher/Greer). Due to the O’Reilly hate on this board, everybody thinks it was a huge win. Not really.

Well that's just not true. At all.


He had 20 points in 77 games last season getting zero PP time. That's actually decent production for a Dman not getting the chances on the PP that the big league producers get.

And then he went and carried our corpse of a Defense on his back while injured to the point of needing surgery in the playoffs.



I dunno if he has #1D upside but to say there's Zero offensive upside is just not accurate. At all.

 

[henchman21]

Never? He's a 23 year old defenseman who has already shown stretches of being a top pair quality defenseman. I wasn't aware scoring ability with a requirement of defense. I also recall seeing him show flashes of offensive ability numerous times, but he never gets powerplay time and is often paired with more offensive minded defensemen. I think the Avs want him to take on a more defensive, shut-down role, so of course his offensive numbers aren't going to be great.

As for Compher, again, you're talking about a 23 year old, and even if he's a bottom 6 guy, that's useful. Greer is even younger at 21, so it's not surprising his game has holes. And I suppose you're just discounting Cam Morrison and Denis Smirnov as automatic busts or something?

I know I for one don't hate O'Reilly. He's one of my all-time favourite Avs - I just think the players we got for him are more valuable than he is.

Let's put this in a non-Avs light... which is better to have Braden Point and Killorn vs having Carlo, Bjork, Senyshyn, and 2 B/C level prospects? To me, I'd clearly take the quality vs quantity thing. Sure the latter group could end up being better as a whole... but there is a solid chance that the best player ends up only being a middle pairing defender. Which the best player on the other side is a high end #2C. Still a #2C, but a high end one.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Problem for Zadorov isn’t him, it’s that he’s not going to get the opportunity.

With Barrie, Girard and Makar and Timmins on the way, it’s unlikely that Zads is going to get prime offensive opportunity.

If the guy is giving you 20-30 ES points per season, then clearly there’s offense there. You’re looking at a 30-40 point player if he got PP time under those circumstances.

 

[OwenNolan]

If Zadorov is playing top pairing shut down minutes vs the opposition top lines, leading the league in hits and becoming an enforcer to protect our stars who cares how many points he has?

I'm loving the defenseman Zadorov is turning in to.

 

[Mighty Makar]

If we could have signed O’Money for $6M or less on a long term deal, that would have been f***en great. He does everything quite well.

 

[BKarchitect]

While I think we got a little ahead of ourselves with Compher potentially progressing into a legit top 6 player last year, I do think it’s a bit premature to peg his entire future as a bottom 6 player. He lacks the natural finish to be a scoring line mainstay IMO but his speed and instincts are great and he occasionally flashes enough creative skill to make you think he’s a guy who can slide all over the middle six and special teams units and just be a versatile contributor.

I think Neat-o is an example of a great pure bottom six guy to have around. I think Compher definitely has better upside than that.

 

[McMetal]

Compher was also hurt a lot this year. I don't think he's ever going to be consistent enough offensively to be a true second line player, but a versatile two-way middle six C/W is a valuable thing to have.

 

[henchman21]

Compher was also hurt a lot this year. I don't think he's ever going to be consistent enough offensively to be a true second line player, but a versatile two-way middle six C/W is a valuable thing to have.

I agree, but I don't think anybody is saying Compher isn't valuable... just in a pure nuts and bolts of it... a high end #2C + 1 season of 3rd liner > #3D + 3rd liner + B/C prospects. This sways to the Avs clearly if Z ends up as a #2D, but that is really the only way to sway it. Compher won't become a 55 point player, and odds are that none of the prospects will either.

 

[Eltuna]

Compher is probably the player I’m most surprised about when it comes to posters opinions. I don’t see what everybody else does. He showed a ton offensively this year, he has a deceptive shot, great speed, a nose for the net, and okay vision. He had so many breakaways and high dancer scoring chances, he didn’t score on them but he will, it’s not like he has a Kerfoot kind of shot, eventually some of those posts are going to go in. He also has produced well outside of the NHL, he’s been progressing very well. If you took away the names and numbers and asked me who had the higher offensive potential just based on their play this year, I would’ve said Compher over Jost. Of coarse Jost is still so young and by the time he’s Compher age he should be better, but I think Comphers potential gets downplayed here. He could put up 50 points one day for sure.

 

[Balthazar]

Compher is higher end bottom 6er in my book.

 

[BKarchitect]

Compher's got the speed but to me Jost's natural instincts and thinking in the offensive zone are just way above Compher's.

 

[flyfysher]

Let's put this in a non-Avs light... which is better to have Braden Point and Killorn vs having Carlo, Bjork, Senyshyn, and 2 B/C level prospects? To me, I'd clearly take the quality vs quantity thing. Sure the latter group could end up being better as a whole... but there is a solid chance that the best player ends up only being a middle pairing defender. Which the best player on the other side is a high end #2C. Still a #2C, but a high end one.

Let's put this in perspective. RoR has elevated his game and carried his team. RoR led the Sabres to the POs, multiple times since the trade, mind you. Zadorov didn't when he needed to step up. Zadorov never scores and has no offense to his game. As a result, the Avs got Dahlin. RoR's contract is a bargain at 7.5m/year. Zadorov, Compher and Greer's salary are a burden. RoR is clearly superior to Zadorov, et al.

Wait a minute. I'm in the wrong universe. Never mind. Truth is, the Avs have come out even (at the very least) in this trade. I think they won it and believe the future will only reinforce it. They have the D-man and physicality that they sorely needed on defense. This team is far more balanced now. RoR is good but the Avs are a much better team now without him. If I could have RoR back or Zadorov and company at the same cost straight up then it's still an easy call. What's best for the team and its future isn't what RoR brings unless you can get Duchene type trade value for him.

 

[McMetal]

I agree, but I don't think anybody is saying Compher isn't valuable... just in a pure nuts and bolts of it... a high end #2C + 1 season of 3rd liner > #3D + 3rd liner + B/C prospects. This sways to the Avs clearly if Z ends up as a #2D, but that is really the only way to sway it. Compher won't become a 55 point player, and odds are that none of the prospects will either.

I just don't think it's an "if" anymore about Z as a #2D after last season. 20-30 ES points combined with very good defense is pretty much exactly what you would expect from a #2.

 

[The Abusement Park]

If Zadorov starts putting up 30-40 pts a year with no PP time than good lord what a player we’ll have on our hands.

 

[OwenNolan]

Put it this way: would we have made the playoffs with Ryan O'Reilly and without Zadorov??

Highly doubtful

 

[Avs_19]

Barrie's awesome but I don't like where the market is headed for players like him. I think this talk of 7+ years, $7.5M+/yr, and a NTC/NMC is crazy. A few months back I started off by saying I don't want him traded and the Avs should wait another year before making that tough decision but now I wouldn't be opposed to it this offseason. He's coming off of a great season and is on a good contract for the next two years so his value may never be higher. I think this goes without saying but you obviously keep him if there aren't any great offers but that'd be surprising if Sakic made him available.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I wish we had traded Duchene instead of ROR. Thats how I felt at the time aswell. ROR just brings so much more to the game that I personally enjoy. This is why Patrice Bergeron and Datsyuk are some of my favourite players after Foppa retired. Having said that im happy with what we got for ROR. I see Z as a very solid 2nd pairing guy with the potential to be a 1st pairing guy.I saw some amazing things from him in the playoffs which could mean hes on his way to being a number 1 guy but im gonna reserve my excitement on that considering buddy was a healthy scratch a few times last season haha.