Speculation: availability of Dylan Larkin

[TS Quint]

No.
If this was a deal for 2 yrs of McDavid and I thought we had enough to possibly get over the top with that, barring injury, then I would do that or even add a bit.

Larkin is not a generational player.
He is an exceptionally solid 1C w/elite potential, not yet elite.

What you demanded was too much massive overpay in currency not available.

Shesty demonstrated last yr he was elite G before the car crash, and is now returning to form after a different strain of some kind. elite G at his $ is a not available.

Kakko likewise has huge potential.

I suggest my package above.
Again, for hypothetical discussion only, not expecting Larkin to be available.

No one is asking for Kakko and your perceived value because of where he was picked in the draft.

 

[bernmeister]

No one is asking for Kakko and your perceived value because of where he was picked in the draft.

You are obv wrong b'c at post 3, someone dis specifically ask for Kakko.

Laf or Kakko plus Shesterkin.

 

[19 for president]

Larkin isn't getting dealt unless its a massive overpay and/or he is in the last year of his contract and told the Wings he won't sign another deal. Wings have ZERO center depth, he is a Michigan native, and is the current captain. Stevie doesn't make him captain if he isn't fully committed to him.

The only chance he gets dealt is if a better center becomes available and he is part of the package. Like we are talking probably a top 10 or top 5 that is in a similar age group or younger. Larkin is the only marketable guy the Wings have (maybe Bert). As someone noted above, trading Larkin would kill any goodwill Wings fans had towards a rebuild, so Stevie would have to be improving the team in order to sell it. Picks and prospects for Larkin (even if its a good deal value wise) isn't going to cut it.

 

[BStinson]

Generally:
Larkin has signif value.
That does not mean, theoretically, an offer can't be put on the table which is too much to decline.

Specifically:
there is a dearth of quality Cs league wide right now.

Either you go long term contract w/the guy [assuming he is amenable]
OR
you add to your haul by selling high on an asset in short supply.

A middle ground would be
a comparatively lesser but still quality C (Strome) ++
for
Larkin

Strome is not Larkin but is a top 10 C who is legit top 6, either line.

Strome doesn’t start the conversation for Larkin.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Strome doesn’t start the conversation for Larkin.

Unless that ++ inlcudes something much better than Strome, I agree.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Larkin and the Wings have a conflict. For next couple of years, Detroit is turning single assets into multiple assets when it is most advantageous to the franchise. Larkin is a hometown kid who wants long-term security (because he is not getting playoffs).

It is not a forgone conclusion that Larkin will re-sign, because Larkin is going to want a NMC, and Detroit will want the flexibility to trade him when he is 26-28 to get top dollar for their asset. Detroit can accept his NMC and greatly limit their options (bad idea in a rebuild) or offer him a higher contract without the NMC, which is real $$$ out the door for a non-playoff team in a post-pandemic league and also makes him less attractive to trade (which is the reason why they would resist the NMC in the first place).

Maybe Detroit and Larkin go the NMC clause on the new contract. Maybe it is just like some posters are saying.

But maybe they don't. Detroit isn't so short-sighted that they can see that they have the most flexibility right now with respect to Larkin and turning him into a multiple assets to accelerate their rebuild.

 

[BStinson]

Larkin and the Wings have a conflict. For next couple of years, Detroit is turning single assets into multiple assets when it is most advantageous to the franchise. Larkin is a hometown kid who wants long-term security (because he is not getting playoffs).

It is not a forgone conclusion that Larkin will re-sign, because Larkin is going to want a NMC, and Detroit will want the flexibility to trade him when he is 26-28 to get top dollar for their asset. Detroit can accept his NMC and greatly limit their options (bad idea in a rebuild) or offer him a higher contract without the NMC, which is real $$$ out the door for a non-playoff team in a post-pandemic league and also makes him less attractive to trade (which is the reason why they would resist the NMC in the first place).

Maybe Detroit and Larkin go the NMC clause on the new contract. Maybe it is just like some posters are saying.

But maybe they don't. Detroit isn't so short-sighted that they can see that they have the most flexibility right now with respect to Larkin and turning him into a multiple assets to accelerate their rebuild.

Larkin turns 25 in July and is signed for two more years after this season. He can’t negotiate a NTC or NMC on an existing contract and should on his next one. I think it’s implied/stated per his pressers that Yzerman will do everything in his power to retain Larkin and considering the bulk of his family is here and we can offer a fair contract it shouldn’t be an issue. There is nothing wrong with giving him a NMC as he’s a great role model for our youth and we can’t just have a team of ELCs.

 

[alasania94]

How are people isolating Larkin's stats knowing what detroit's roster has been over the last 2-3 years lol.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Larkin isn't getting dealt unless its a massive overpay and/or he is in the last year of his contract and told the Wings he won't sign another deal. Wings have ZERO center depth, he is a Michigan native, and is the current captain. Stevie doesn't make him captain if he isn't fully committed to him.

The only chance he gets dealt is if a better center becomes available and he is part of the package. Like we are talking probably a top 10 or top 5 that is in a similar age group or younger. Larkin is the only marketable guy the Wings have (maybe Bert). As someone noted above, trading Larkin would kill any goodwill Wings fans had towards a rebuild, so Stevie would have to be improving the team in order to sell it. Picks and prospects for Larkin (even if its a good deal value wise) isn't going to cut it.

I will say if Larkin came to them and asked out, they might grant him his request...

I don't think that is right now, but Larkin is frankly too competitive to stay forever if we don't start getting better. He looks so dejected these days. I really am a massive fan, I hope he is around to greet and be impactful on the next really good Wings teams. I hope he is the captain, but if we keep losing like this, I think Larkin asks to be moved at some point. As much as he is a Michigan man, he loves hockey too much and frankly excels better when challenged we have seen that in USA jerseys to just play his entire career outside of the post-season save his rookie season... It is why I worry on the people that say there is no timeline, we need Larkin to believe in this group in a couple years time in my opinion or he might just leave us.

I still don't think that is something Steve gets permission from the Ilitch family on until his UFA walk year... We are hopefully a little better at that point or the plan looks better. I think that is why Yzerman still names him as a core piece, we will have to see what the next 12 months bring though it is really hard to see him playing elsewhere yet, the return would need to be massive for the Wings not to take a beating locally.

 

[bernmeister]

Strome doesn’t start the conversation for Larkin.

Unless that ++ inlcudes something much better than Strome, I agree.

Agreed.
Hence the ++

the idea is Strome mitigates most of the production loss at C.

There has to be a sign add by NYR, but it must be in currency that works for Rangers.

 

[BStinson]

Agreed.
Hence the ++

the idea is Strome mitigates most of the production loss at C.

There has to be a sign add by NYR, but it must be in currency that works for Rangers.

If you believed this, then you wouldn’t trade for Larkin nor would the difference be “++”. Strome’s stats are inflated with Breadman, Detroit doesn’t have anyone remotely close to that. The add would also have to work for Detroit and I’d wager you’d have a bunch of untouchables that Detroit would be after.

 

[bernmeister]

...

If you believed this, then you wouldn’t trade for Larkin nor would the difference be “++”.
Inaccurate assumption.
We'd like to upgrade Strome into Larkin, but general production is not the reason. It makes sense b'c Larkin has serious afterburners, and I am intrigued at what a Kreider-Larkin-Zib line would look like. Also, from an asset mgmt standpoint, it is going younger on Zib, who I do not want to extend for beyond three years more past final year on his deal next season. So understand pls, it is not just raw production. From a stats line, Strome is something like top 10 Cs at this pt. It is the potential to create extra synergy marrying super speed in Kreider, Larkin and to lesser extent Zib.


Strome’s stats are inflated with Breadman,
Sorry, no that is a talking point that has been debunked by the evidence. Last year, you could make that argument, not this season, when Panarin had to take a LOA and Strome still played well w/top 6 personnel. Sure, ANYBODY looks better w/breadman, but your charge is false.


Detroit doesn’t have anyone remotely close to that. The add would also have to work for Detroit and I’d wager you’d have a bunch of untouchables that Detroit would be after.
It would have to work both ways.

I offered Trouba at close to a throw in, and was rebuffed. Now all Red Wing fans are entitled to their preference of who they want, that's fine. But whether or not you could use him, and acquire at basically a cost of cap hit for only 2-3 seasons on his contract, is another matter. That is, it is fundamentally disingenuous to say that Wings could not use him.

Our bluest blue chips are unavailable for any deal, period.
We do not have a surplus to spare.
However, what we can offer is not chopped liver, either.

Larkin is approaching mid 20s and has 2 yrs under contract before ufa
Buch is expiring exiting rfa but a final yr of control before ufa
Strome is signed thru next season, then ufa.
They are mid 20s approaching late 20s.
That's 2 yrs of production for 2 yrs of production.
Throw in 2021 1st to cover dif
Add as sweetener Rykov, a draft exempt LD we have no room for.

And I throw in as a freebie Trouba; all you have to do is take his contract.

And if you don't like that fine.
Trouba played well this yr w/K'AM. We want to move him in 2 yrs to make room for Schneider, but we can keep him til then; his NMC is not ironclad after that.
We can get 1st + for each of both Strome + Buch

And our guy has discovered a track record of hitting on these picks, even in later rounds.
So if we do a deal fine
If we don't fine.

 

[Tetsuo]

If you believed this, then you wouldn’t trade for Larkin nor would the difference be “++”.
Inaccurate assumption.
We'd like to upgrade Strome into Larkin, but general production is not the reason. It makes sense b'c Larkin has serious afterburners, and I am intrigued at what a Kreider-Larkin-Zib line would look like. Also, from an asset mgmt standpoint, it is going younger on Zib, who I do not want to extend for beyond three years more past final year on his deal next season. So understand pls, it is not just raw production. From a stats line, Strome is something like top 10 Cs at this pt. It is the potential to create extra synergy marrying super speed in Kreider, Larkin and to lesser extent Zib.


Strome’s stats are inflated with Breadman,
Sorry, no that is a talking point that has been debunked by the evidence. Last year, you could make that argument, not this season, when Panarin had to take a LOA and Strome still played well w/top 6 personnel. Sure, ANYBODY looks better w/breadman, but your charge is false.


Detroit doesn’t have anyone remotely close to that. The add would also have to work for Detroit and I’d wager you’d have a bunch of untouchables that Detroit would be after.
It would have to work both ways.

I offered Trouba at close to a throw in, and was rebuffed. Now all Red Wing fans are entitled to their preference of who they want, that's fine. But whether or not you could use him, and acquire at basically a cost of cap hit for only 2-3 seasons on his contract, is another matter. That is, it is fundamentally disingenuous to say that Wings could not use him.

Our bluest blue chips are unavailable for any deal, period.
We do not have a surplus to spare.
However, what we can offer is not chopped liver, either.

Larkin is approaching mid 20s and has 2 yrs under contract before ufa
Buch is expiring exiting rfa but a final yr of control before ufa
Strome is signed thru next season, then ufa.
They are mid 20s approaching late 20s.
That's 2 yrs of production for 2 yrs of production.
Throw in 2021 1st to cover dif
Add as sweetener Rykov, a draft exempt LD we have no room for.

And I throw in as a freebie Trouba; all you have to do is take his contract.

And if you don't like that fine.
Trouba played well this yr w/K'AM. We want to move him in 2 yrs to make room for Schneider, but we can keep him til then; his NMC is not ironclad after that.
We can get 1st + for each of both Strome + Buch

And our guy has discovered a track record of hitting on these picks, even in later rounds.
So if we do a deal fine
If we don't fine.

So we're getting an older player with less term whose most common linemate is one of the best players in the world in return for our Captain who is one of the hardest working players in the league... we'll get right on that boss. I'll admit Strome has been better this year, but we have no reason to think he'll be able to handle Larkin's role on the ice, given how barren we are of top 6 talent. Let alone off of it. No matter which mid-20s player you name, a 1st will absolutely not cover the gap, we would need a blue chip asset coming back the other way, especially if you want us to take on Trouba's terrible deal.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Ya know, I'll give Bern credit, at least when he makes ridiculous proposals and people shred them, he doesn't hide behind the report button like another guy in this thread...

But yeah... Strome isn't even getting the phone answered for Larkin. NYR and DET are poor trading partners. Both are loaded on the wing and RHD and both lack center depth.

 

[bernmeister]

So we're getting an older player with less term whose most common linemate is one of the best players in the world in return for our Captain who is one of the hardest working players in the league... we'll get right on that boss. I'll admit Strome has been better this year, but we have no reason to think he'll be able to handle Larkin's role on the ice, given how barren we are of top 6 talent. Let alone off of it. No matter which mid-20s player you name, a 1st will absolutely not cover the gap, we would need a blue chip asset coming back the other way, especially if you want us to take on Trouba's terrible deal.

Ya know, I'll give Bern credit, at least when he makes ridiculous proposals and people shred them, he doesn't hide behind the report button like another guy in this thread...

But yeah... Strome isn't even getting the phone answered for Larkin. NYR and DET are poor trading partners. Both are loaded on the wing and RHD and both lack center depth.

Never said Strome 1:1 or anything close to that, and I clearly showed Trouba as a freebie throw in..

Unfortunately the bold is largely correct.

Also, we do not have excess blue chips to spare.
We have for our internal needs, not a surplus.

Again I don't expect Larkin to be moved, and if he is a favorite son, and wants to stay, he should stay.

That said, if he is moved, the underrating of Strome and complete dismissal of Buchnevich is disappointing.
As attractive as Larkin is,
I would rather get something back like 1st + for Strome and 1st + Drury for Buch

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

2x 2021 1st
Nyquist
Foudy

more or less from CBJ?

more a.k.a we aren’t trading him to you.

 

[BStinson]

If you believed this, then you wouldn’t trade for Larkin nor would the difference be “++”.
Inaccurate assumption.
We'd like to upgrade Strome into Larkin, but general production is not the reason. It makes sense b'c Larkin has serious afterburners, and I am intrigued at what a Kreider-Larkin-Zib line would look like. Also, from an asset mgmt standpoint, it is going younger on Zib, who I do not want to extend for beyond three years more past final year on his deal next season. So understand pls, it is not just raw production. From a stats line, Strome is something like top 10 Cs at this pt. It is the potential to create extra synergy marrying super speed in Kreider, Larkin and to lesser extent Zib.


Strome’s stats are inflated with Breadman,
Sorry, no that is a talking point that has been debunked by the evidence. Last year, you could make that argument, not this season, when Panarin had to take a LOA and Strome still played well w/top 6 personnel. Sure, ANYBODY looks better w/breadman, but your charge is false.


Detroit doesn’t have anyone remotely close to that. The add would also have to work for Detroit and I’d wager you’d have a bunch of untouchables that Detroit would be after.
It would have to work both ways.

I offered Trouba at close to a throw in, and was rebuffed. Now all Red Wing fans are entitled to their preference of who they want, that's fine. But whether or not you could use him, and acquire at basically a cost of cap hit for only 2-3 seasons on his contract, is another matter. That is, it is fundamentally disingenuous to say that Wings could not use him.

Our bluest blue chips are unavailable for any deal, period.
We do not have a surplus to spare.
However, what we can offer is not chopped liver, either.

Larkin is approaching mid 20s and has 2 yrs under contract before ufa
Buch is expiring exiting rfa but a final yr of control before ufa
Strome is signed thru next season, then ufa.
They are mid 20s approaching late 20s.
That's 2 yrs of production for 2 yrs of production.
Throw in 2021 1st to cover dif
Add as sweetener Rykov, a draft exempt LD we have no room for.

And I throw in as a freebie Trouba; all you have to do is take his contract.

And if you don't like that fine.
Trouba played well this yr w/K'AM. We want to move him in 2 yrs to make room for Schneider, but we can keep him til then; his NMC is not ironclad after that.
We can get 1st + for each of both Strome + Buch

And our guy has discovered a track record of hitting on these picks, even in later rounds.
So if we do a deal fine
If we don't fine.

So your saying that Strome isn’t benefiting from playing with a top 5 player in the world? When he’s constantly been a 30-35 pt player in his career? Over the past two years together he’s played 1,433 mins together (58.97% Strome CF) and mins separated 553 mins (34.34% Strome CF). Not to mention that Detroit would be getting older and a one year rental out of him? Doesn’t really fill a Detroit need unless that ++ was something extremely valuable like a blue chip center prospect.

What Detroit untouchables are you talking about outside of Larkin? This is about your proposal for Larkin with Strome ++. Trouba is overpaid, I think everyone can agree on that and RHD is a strength (relatively) for Detroit currently with Hronek, Seider, and Stetcher which is why you probably say we don’t need to pay Trouba.

Okay so your offer is Strome + Buch + Rykov + 2021 1st. With the option of adding Trouba at full contract. Seems like a definition of quantity for quality with so many pieces for one. I feel confident that Yzerman is moving our team in the right direction and we’ll be able to sign Larkin to an extension. I like Buch but what’s to stop him from a one year and leave? And why does Detroit trade from an area of weakness to get more wingers when they recently drafted three (Zadina, Raymond, Berggren) plus have vets? A late first adds value but it’s a late first rounder and we’re talking about a young center captain. That’s why you got push back.

 

[bernmeister]

....

So your saying that Strome isn’t benefiting from playing with a top 5 player in the world?
No I said he is playing great both with and without him.

When he’s constantly been a 30-35 pt player in his career?
Players develop. What he was as a rookie or season 2 or so is irrelevant. He clearly has blossomed beginning as of last yr. Fact that this carries over from prior season suggests it will continue going forward.

Note: I am not saying Strome is a McD or Panarin level guy who can singlehandedly carry a team all by himself, regardless of linemates. And to be fair, the number of THOSE players can be ,,, counted on a single hand.

But Strome IS PROVED to be a great facilitator and productive contributor. If you play him w/4th line drek he can only do so much, but can likely do enough if asked to step in to 1C. He is viewed as a solid, good 2C.


Over the past two years together he’s played 1,433 mins together (58.97% Strome CF) and mins separated 553 mins (34.34% Strome CF). Not to mention that Detroit would be getting older and a one year rental out of him?
Like I said.
Larkin = 2 yrs under contract before ufa
Buch gets a yr min before ufa maybe more
Strome is under contract for 1 yr clearly underpaid.
What are you complaining about in that regard.

Doesn’t really fill a Detroit need unless that ++ was something extremely valuable like a blue chip center prospect.
No. We do NOT have extra blue chips to spare in trade.
DET is getting production from 2 Fs = to or exceeding production of the one F they traded, + a 1st, + an elc exempt prospect + a freebie (contract notwithstanding), which DET can handle cap wise, who is a local kid who would be happy to return there.
That is a net + for wings.

What Detroit untouchables are you talking about outside of Larkin?
No idea what you are referring to.

This is about your proposal for Larkin with Strome ++.
Yes

Trouba is overpaid, I think everyone can agree on that
We do with an asterisk. He is not a Seabrook level bad contract, totally unproductive. He is overpaid by a mil, maybe a mil and a half and by the end of that deal it will be less than that.
Plus there are only 3 more seasons after this before the NMC is modified and he can be dealt.
Finally, Trouba sucked when paired with an aging Staal, etc.
Howev, playing mostly w/a good partner, even a rookie one in K'A Miller, he has played WELL. Not usually great, but certainly WELL.
Just so we are clear on value of production commensurate with his salary.

...and RHD is a strength (relatively) for Detroit currently with Hronek, Seider, and Stetcher which is why you probably say we don’t need to pay Trouba.
You still need to add D. Obv, keep Seider, add Trouba and see about either one of Hronek/Stetcher playing LD or being moved for other positions of need.

Okay so your offer is Strome + Buch + Rykov + 2021 1st. With the option of adding Trouba at full contract.
Yes. Quite frankly I am being overly generous to a fault, and that 1st should require return of NYR 2021 2nd, but I will stand by my offer as stated.

Seems like a definition of quantity for quality with so many pieces for one.
This is a mutually complementary scenario. Rangers could use an upgrade if they don't flip excess Fs into picks, and Wings need more quality players. You are not losing out IF you get enough production and good value.
Yes, at some pt you need to add a superstar or two but that is nothing you can do, let alone control at this pt.
Either enjoy Larkin and sign him long term or use him to accelerate the rebuild.
But understand, currency is a 2 way street.
And unless it is a complementary swap, i.e., a LD for a RD or similar, no one trades coke for pepsi. Clubs trade for profit.

I feel confident that Yzerman is moving our team in the right direction and we’ll be able to sign Larkin to an extension.
That is one reasonable course of action.

I like Buch but what’s to stop him from a one year and leave?
While covid flat cap will depress prices a bit longer in the short term, soon enough some semblance of normalcy will return.
At that pt he gets paid market.
You and everybody else and every club must ultimately pay for talent and pay at market.
In fact, to be the winning bid beating out competition for services, you have to pay top price.

And why does Detroit trade from an area of weakness to get more wingers when they recently drafted three (Zadina, Raymond, Berggren) plus have vets?
Arguably Buch production now vs Zadina production now is favorably compared.
Raymond and B are not doing prime time yet.
Are your vets comparable to Buch?
No.

A late first adds value but it’s a late first rounder and we’re talking about a young center captain.
Rangers 2021 1st projects to be mid pick at this pt, maybe end of top 10 to mid. It is not late. Rangers unlikely to make playoffs

That’s why you got push back.
No prob w/the pushback as long as constructive, polite convo where we talk to each other and try to specifically address the points mentioned, as I trust I have herein, trying to objectively identify strengths and weaknesses of each other's stated positions.

Feel free to agree, or disagree w/me anytime.
Be guided by the merits.

And when all else fails, for you kids, this is not original, but always apt, good advice for all situations:

"Tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide."

 

[SirloinUB]

Larkin is not available at this time. Friedman pondered the idea of Detroit moving him if they get an offer too good to pass on but nothing in this thread comes close to fitting that mold.

Here is a tip: if you want to shoot the shit (and to be clear, shooting the shit is the extent of Larkin's availability) any trade that would actually get Larkin out of Detroit requires premium assets going to Detroit. Legit blue chip/A level assets, otherwise Detroit won't even consider it.

You can spin a narrative about how good your pieces are, or how mediocre you believe Larkin to be, but If Detroit doesn't see legit roster building assets coming back the conversation is dead on arrival. You can disagree with that value, you can argue that you'd take a different approach if you were in Detroit's shoes but it doesn't change the reality of the current situation.

 

[BStinson]

So your saying that Strome isn’t benefiting from playing with a top 5 player in the world?
No I said he is playing great both with and without him.

When he’s constantly been a 30-35 pt player in his career?
Players develop. What he was as a rookie or season 2 or so is irrelevant. He clearly has blossomed beginning as of last yr. Fact that this carries over from prior season suggests it will continue going forward.

Note: I am not saying Strome is a McD or Panarin level guy who can singlehandedly carry a team all by himself, regardless of linemates. And to be fair, the number of THOSE players can be ,,, counted on a single hand.

But Strome IS PROVED to be a great facilitator and productive contributor. If you play him w/4th line drek he can only do so much, but can likely do enough if asked to step in to 1C. He is viewed as a solid, good 2C.


Over the past two years together he’s played 1,433 mins together (58.97% Strome CF) and mins separated 553 mins (34.34% Strome CF). Not to mention that Detroit would be getting older and a one year rental out of him?
Like I said.
Larkin = 2 yrs under contract before ufa
Buch gets a yr min before ufa maybe more
Strome is under contract for 1 yr clearly underpaid.
What are you complaining about in that regard.

Doesn’t really fill a Detroit need unless that ++ was something extremely valuable like a blue chip center prospect.
No. We do NOT have extra blue chips to spare in trade.
DET is getting production from 2 Fs = to or exceeding production of the one F they traded, + a 1st, + an elc exempt prospect + a freebie (contract notwithstanding), which DET can handle cap wise, who is a local kid who would be happy to return there.
That is a net + for wings.

What Detroit untouchables are you talking about outside of Larkin?
No idea what you are referring to.

This is about your proposal for Larkin with Strome ++.
Yes

Trouba is overpaid, I think everyone can agree on that
We do with an asterisk. He is not a Seabrook level bad contract, totally unproductive. He is overpaid by a mil, maybe a mil and a half and by the end of that deal it will be less than that.
Plus there are only 3 more seasons after this before the NMC is modified and he can be dealt.
Finally, Trouba sucked when paired with an aging Staal, etc.
Howev, playing mostly w/a good partner, even a rookie one in K'A Miller, he has played WELL. Not usually great, but certainly WELL.
Just so we are clear on value of production commensurate with his salary.

...and RHD is a strength (relatively) for Detroit currently with Hronek, Seider, and Stetcher which is why you probably say we don’t need to pay Trouba.
You still need to add D. Obv, keep Seider, add Trouba and see about either one of Hronek/Stetcher playing LD or being moved for other positions of need.

Okay so your offer is Strome + Buch + Rykov + 2021 1st. With the option of adding Trouba at full contract.
Yes. Quite frankly I am being overly generous to a fault, and that 1st should require return of NYR 2021 2nd, but I will stand by my offer as stated.

Seems like a definition of quantity for quality with so many pieces for one.
This is a mutually complementary scenario. Rangers could use an upgrade if they don't flip excess Fs into picks, and Wings need more quality players. You are not losing out IF you get enough production and good value.
Yes, at some pt you need to add a superstar or two but that is nothing you can do, let alone control at this pt.
Either enjoy Larkin and sign him long term or use him to accelerate the rebuild.
But understand, currency is a 2 way street.
And unless it is a complementary swap, i.e., a LD for a RD or similar, no one trades coke for pepsi. Clubs trade for profit.

I feel confident that Yzerman is moving our team in the right direction and we’ll be able to sign Larkin to an extension.
That is one reasonable course of action.

I like Buch but what’s to stop him from a one year and leave?
While covid flat cap will depress prices a bit longer in the short term, soon enough some semblance of normalcy will return.
At that pt he gets paid market.
You and everybody else and every club must ultimately pay for talent and pay at market.
In fact, to be the winning bid beating out competition for services, you have to pay top price.

And why does Detroit trade from an area of weakness to get more wingers when they recently drafted three (Zadina, Raymond, Berggren) plus have vets?
Arguably Buch production now vs Zadina production now is favorably compared.
Raymond and B are not doing prime time yet.
Are your vets comparable to Buch?
No.

A late first adds value but it’s a late first rounder and we’re talking about a young center captain.
Rangers 2021 1st projects to be mid pick at this pt, maybe end of top 10 to mid. It is not late. Rangers unlikely to make playoffs

That’s why you got push back.
No prob w/the pushback as long as constructive, polite convo where we talk to each other and try to specifically address the points mentioned, as I trust I have herein, trying to objectively identify strengths and weaknesses of each other's stated positions.

Feel free to agree, or disagree w/me anytime.
Be guided by the merits.

And when all else fails, for you kids, this is not original, but always apt, good advice for all situations:

"Tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide."

Yes, players develop differently. I provided analytics to support my claim, you speculate based on extremely limited game sample size with an unsustainable shooting % in that period from Strome. We’re also not just talking about 2 seasons for ~30-35 pts but rather every season until he went shotgun to Breadman.

Detroit doesn’t want Trouba for the reasons I mentioned. I also never said he was Seabrook level but just overpaid. It’s also odd that he looked bad paired with Staal but Stetcher made him look serviceable.

Like I said, I want Detroit to sign him long term and be a role model for the kids barring a massive overpayment (this isn’t it).

Some heavily in analytics would argue different on your speculation of Bert or Vrana not being comparable to Buch (especially Vrana with p/60 & EV). No one said Raymond or Berggen were going to be day one starters but there is a possibility with them grabbing a spot sometime next season with Bert, Vrana, Zadina, and Fabbri already playing, which is why it’s trading for an area of strength relative to our other positions.

Rags are currently in the 16th spot in a weak draft projected and like I said it’s value but it’s magic beans. Maybe more would be on board if they didn’t see Strome & Buch but rather the picks they would be flipped for involving separate teams but it’s hard to say without seeing where those picks fall I’d rather keep the known center we have and continue to build around them.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Larkin is not available at this time. Friedman pondered the idea of Detroit moving him if they get an offer too good to pass on but nothing in this thread comes close to fitting that mold.

Here is a tip: if you want to shoot the shit (and to be clear, shooting the shit is the extent of Larkin's availability) any trade that would actually get Larkin out of Detroit requires premium assets going to Detroit. Legit blue chip/A level assets, otherwise Detroit won't even consider it.

You can spin a narrative about how good your pieces are, or how mediocre you believe Larkin to be, but If Detroit doesn't see legit roster building assets coming back the conversation is dead on arrival. You can disagree with that value, you can argue that you'd take a different approach if you were in Detroit's shoes but it doesn't change the reality of the current situation.

Yep. This is 100% accurate.

We could say something like we won't trade him for anything from Edmonton's roster except Draisaitl or McDavid. It's not because we think he's worth Draisaitl or McDavid, but rather because any package of what Edmonton would want to give up isn't enough. That's something people really have trouble with on this board... if a trade is ever turned down saying "Only by giving that piece will we make the trade" the assumption gets made that "Detroit fans think their guy is worth the sun, moon, and stars" when the truth is we don't have to move a guy like Larkin for fair value. We don't have to move him at all. So, if you want him, it comes with an offer that we would literally be stupid to turn down. Anything in the realm of "fair value"? We don't bother with a trade because we like our guy.

 

[SuperScript29]

I will say if Larkin came to them and asked out, they might grant him his request...

I don't think that is right now, but Larkin is frankly too competitive to stay forever if we don't start getting better. He looks so dejected these days. I really am a massive fan, I hope he is around to greet and be impactful on the next really good Wings teams. I hope he is the captain, but if we keep losing like this, I think Larkin asks to be moved at some point. As much as he is a Michigan man, he loves hockey too much and frankly excels better when challenged we have seen that in USA jerseys to just play his entire career outside of the post-season save his rookie season... It is why I worry on the people that say there is no timeline, we need Larkin to believe in this group in a couple years time in my opinion or he might just leave us.

I still don't think that is something Steve gets permission from the Ilitch family on until his UFA walk year... We are hopefully a little better at that point or the plan looks better. I think that is why Yzerman still names him as a core piece, we will have to see what the next 12 months bring though it is really hard to see him playing elsewhere yet, the return would need to be massive for the Wings not to take a beating locally.

He's only 24 and the team's captain to boot, I think he will give it a good shot before he'll consider other options. We have some very exciting players coming into our system and we have a GM with good track record of brining in good players. If in 3-4 years from now we are still crap, then I can see Larkin moving on as by then he should be in his prime.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Our bluest blue chips are unavailable for any deal, period.

Then don't go after a player like Larkin.

We do not have a surplus to spare.

We don't care. Cost of doing business.

However, what we can offer is not chopped liver, either.

What you CAN offer isn't. What you DO offer is.

And I throw in as a freebie Trouba; all you have to do is take his contract.

First things first, what about the word "freebie" and the insinuated statement "all you have to do is pay his bloated contract cost" makes sense being used in the same sentence in your world?

More importantly, if he has been a good player as you suggest, you wouldn't "throw him in as a freebie" and try to recoup value. And if you are willing to "throw him in as a freebie" then certainly there's a negative value hanging around there somewhere that you are trying to escape.

Because at the end of the day, you are a Rangers fan and your trades always favor the Rangers. You tend put together long, boring posts with a lot of bending over backwards to suggest that your spare parts, negative value contracts, and depth level prospects somehow can combine to match the value of the one key component the Rangers end up on the receiving end of. There is no conceivable way that the Rangers lose a deal when the move out a bland middle 6 player in Strome, get out of the Trouba deal, don't give up any significant prospect, and in return they get one of the better two way top 6 centers in the league that has been stuck on and held back by a bad Detroit roster.

Zero value given up, lots of value coming back. What a genius you are.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Without a massive overpay Larkin isn't going anywhere.

This, It would take absolute overpay to acquire Larkin.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The Wings could absolutely use Jacob Trouba. He's still a good hockey player. He's not worth 8M for the remainder of his contract, though. Especially not in a flat cap situation. If you want to free up 8M in cap long term, it's going to cost you and cost you dearly.

He's not a "freebie toss in". His contract is an albatross around your neck and we're not going to be cool and take it off for no charge. I'd rather sign Alec Martinez for somewhere in the 4 or 5 million for a couple years. Or wait and toss 8-10m at Werenski who seems to want to come to Detroit. It's not that Trouba is even bad... it's that we can use 8M so much more effectively than to take him on.