Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round V (MOD WARNING: BEHAVE!)

[Mahonkinen]

I ask questions in most prospects threads because I don't watch any of them play, I only really watch the top 5-10. I leave it for other posters to fill me in with information.

But going back to his hands, they are both have different elements that make their hands unique. Laine has a super good reach, and really smooth, almost a flawless motion with the puck. His hands are comparable but obviously not as good as Datsyuk. His 1 on 1 skills are superb and I've noticed his hands compensate for his lack of skating which speaks volumes about how good they are.

When I see Matthews' hands, I see some elements of Kane's hands with his quick stick handling, like he's one move ahead of the defender, not as flashy but extremely efficient. His main asset for his hands is quickness and smoothness. The puck looks glued to his stick sometimes. It just works and gets the job done but you appreciate it more as you see him come out corners, battles and scrums with the puck.

I dont disagree with any of what you wrote. Just value Laines hands above Matthews. Theres no magic in that and subjective opinions are hard to proof with facts.

 

[stavs*]

I agree with your assertion. Though I think Kane has visually amazing hands too. It's almost impossible to say with certainty which is better. Both guys having their strengths.

with Kane I think his hands look that much better because he has his incredible speed to go with it. But I do think Kane has a better arsenal of dekes than Matthews. That is why he is the best.

 

[stavs*]

I dont disagree with any of what you wrote. Just value Laines hands above Matthews. Theres no magic in that and subjective opinions are hard to proof with facts.

that's fair i guess. I think both players will be effective in that facet in the NHL. Both seem to excel in it

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

I like Ovi. A lot.

I have a soft spot for Crosby as he seems to be a bit of Rodney Dangerfield type of player were he is constantly criticised for "not showing up" even though he manages to get it done time and time again.

Is there a player who gets more threads about "Is Crosby Finished"?

A perfect example was the 2014 Olympics where Crosby appeared to take on a different role due to Canada icing enough goal scorers.

The thing with Crosby isn't so much his "wider skill sets" its that he completely understands the team game and understands his role will adapt from time to time.

Funny enough just found this article pretty much saying what I posted.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sidney-crosbys-impact-penguins-goes-deeper-points/

 

[stavs*]

He actually translated it pretty perfectly. Only thing missing is the "Bulls hit" word at the start of the scouts' quote.

I know and I believe it, but it doesn't do much for him other than kill credibility when neutral fans read stuff like this. There was even plenty of Finnish fans that agreed that Laine did not play good, even Laine himself said he did not play good. Matthews wasn't exceptional but he did get an assist and also kept up with Barkov for most of the game including taking away a potential goal from him on a strong back check. His defensive game was sound and showed some flashes offensively but was ultimately limited by his scrub line mates. I don't think you'll see many people agree with that opinion, but hey, you can't change people's perception. They see what they want to see.

 

[kelsier]

This scout was as unbiased as the one who said "Eichel can't even carry Matthews' skates to the rink".

Really? So basically, if a scouts says something versus consensus Leafs' perspective and mutual opinion, therefore the only conclusion can be that he is biased. M'kay.

Even the goal of which Matthews assisted looked like an offside from my TV screen and I was like what the heck, why didn't I hear a whistle. Laine thought the same thing, but it was never whistled for whoknows why and stopped playing. Anyway, doesn't even matter as the goalkeeper should have had no trouble catching the resulting shot from the turnover that never was supposed to even happen.

 

[ps241]

You made me dig into the numbers to calculate Relative Corsi Against and Relative Corsi For, for players on Laine's team and you are still wrong (even more that I expected)

-|CF/60|CA/60|CF/60 RelTeam|CA/60 RelTeam
Patrik Laine|40.17|35.19|1.41|-6.29
Team | 38.75 | 41.47 | - | -

CF/60=higher is better. CA/60=lower is better.

So much for the "Laine sucks defensively" narrative. As you can see Laine has amazing shot suppression numbers. There's one other player on his team with > 15 games that allows fewer corsi events against/60 than Laine does. This should show you to not blindly believe or spew a narrative.

All numbers derived from data that's available here http://liiga.fi/tilastot/2015-2016/...player_stats=enhanced&sort=Nimi#stats-wrapper

Interesting post. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.

 

[janesy12]

Matthews played with Tkachuk who in his draft year is having almost as good a year as Marner in his draft+1 year, he also played with Jack Roslovic a 1st round pick from last year. Kane, Kessel or Eichel played with no one nearly as good or elite as Tkachuk. Just pointing it out since Matthews fans love to talk about Laine's linemates

In all fairness to Tkachuk's great season this year. He's playing with Marner and Dvorak.
If you use Tkachuk as a reason Matthews put up so many points then, you should use Marner/Dvorak as a reason Tkachuk is finding great success this season. Especially since Marner is arguably the best player in the entire CHL.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Laine is just a better player than Matthews. He is a game changing talent. Matthews just makes the safe play all the time and lacks the dynamic ability of Laine. Matthews will end up being a good #1C but Laine is the one that will end up as a superstar.

If Laine is this much of a generational talent I can't figure out why he isn't a shoo in for #1,,,,,

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Really? So basically, if a scouts says something versus consensus Leafs' perspective and mutual opinion, therefore the only conclusion can be that he is biased. M'kay.

Even the goal of which Matthews assisted looked like an offside from my TV screen and I was like what the heck, why didn't I hear a whistle. Laine thought the same thing, but it was never whistled for whoknows why and stopped playing. Anyway, doesn't even matter as the goalkeeper should have had no trouble catching the resulting shot from the turnover that never was supposed to even happen.

This thread has truly jumped the shark... Haha.

 

[NarcoPolo]

If Laine is this much of a generational talent I can't figure out why he isn't a shoo in for #1,,,,,

Because he's not better than Matthews.

He was one dimensional offensive winger with entitlement and consistency issues up until that start of this year. Seems he's cleaned up his act and added a few more dimensions to his game this season but idk if that's something that scouts look at or not.

 

[Pyromaniac]

If Laine is this much of a generational talent I can't figure out why he isn't a shoo in for #1,,,,,

I botched that post. Laine isn't as good as Matthews yet but he will end up being better as he has way more talent.

Matthews is the safer pick though considering position and floor.

 

[NarcoPolo]

I botched that post. Laine isn't as good as Matthews yet but he will end up being better as he has way more talent.

Matthews is the safer pick though considering position and floor.

You also botched this one

 

[Pyromaniac]

You also botched this one

You are entitled to your opinion however wrong you might be.

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

People confused about Matthews' floor, you should just look at how well he plays when he's 18 (aka now) He hasn't maxed his potential but in a way there's more to see from Laine than from Matthews because of how raw Laine is now. You get me?

Laine may be raw now but he has a large margin of evolving to do compared to Matthews.

 

[Shwaguy*]

More uninformed posters who act like Matthews isn't a dynamic offensive talent smh.

He's greater than or equal to Laine as far as offensive upside goes.

40 goals/top 5 in scoring is his offensive upside. Laine ain't Ovi he's not gonna be scoring 50 on the regular, maybe once if he is lucky.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

You are entitled to your opinion however wrong you might be.

Those blue and white goggles must really blur vision.

I guess it's blue and white goggles that have had Matthews rated as the top prospect by 80% of scouts, teams and services for the last couple years?

 

[Shwaguy*]

People confused about Matthews' floor, you should just look at how well he plays when he's 18 (aka now) He hasn't maxed his potential but in a way there's more to see from Laine than from Matthews because of how raw Laine is now. You get me?

Laine may be raw now but he has a large margin of evolving to do compared to Matthews.

This is nonsense no he doesn't/


Just because Matthews is better now does not mean Laine has more room to grow. This idea that just because he has a high floor a player has a low ceiling is ridiculous.

Matthews is better now AND he has higher upside. This is why he is the number 1 pick. Even if Laine were a center, he's still the number 1 pick.


Love the detractors trying to downplay him as a 60 point 2 way center.... He'll be close to that in his rookie season (Eichel 56 points and he's as good or better than Eichel according to most now that he has his draft year under his belt....Outproduced Eichel at the same age).

Try 80 point 2 way center. Top 10 scoring potential with the ability to maybe dip into the top 5 in a couple of years. Laine has similar upside offensively but away from the puck Matthews takes the cake and he can still very much grow in that department as well.

 

[Pyromaniac]

I guess it's blue and white goggles that have had Matthews rated as the top prospect by 80% of scouts, teams and services for the last couple years?

Matthews is the safe unremarkable option. I honestly would not even be surprised if Marner ends up being the better player. IMO even Marner has a higher ceiling that Matthews but I don't think this a thread for that comparison.

I simply believe that Laine is a more unique talent who has game breaking ability. Matthews will be a solid player but will not have that 'it' factor.

 

[Shwaguy*]

But yeah Matthews is MORE dynamic than Laine, not less. There is only one thing that Laine has that is more dynamic than Matthews and that is his slapshot/one timer. Everything is else tied or advantage Matthews and Laine's one timer does not outweigh that.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Matthews is the safe unremarkable option. I honestly would not even be surprised if Marner ends up being the better player. IMO even Marner has a higher ceiling that Matthews but I don't think this a thread for that comparison.

I simply believe that Laine is a more unique talent who has game breaking ability. Matthews will be a solid player but will not have that 'it' factor.

Matthews has more gamebreaking ability than Laine. You need to be an elite skater which Matthews is and Laine's skating is subpar.

Not to mention Hockey IQ, boardwork, and net presence where Matthews has Laine beat.

 

[Plural]

More uninformed posters who act like Matthews isn't a dynamic offensive talent smh.

He's greater than or equal to Laine as far as offensive upside goes.

40 goals/top 5 in scoring is his offensive upside. Laine ain't Ovi he's not gonna be scoring 50 on the regular, maybe once if he is lucky.

Yeah, I don't see a huge difference in their offensive upside. Matthews is more well rounded to boot. I think Laine is flashier and has better creativity in the offensive end. Which often leads to more visually impressive results. But that doesn't mean flashier is more effective.

I think both guys have the upside to reach top-10/5 in points. I also think that Matthews has almost no bust potential. His game is ready. Obviously he can, and likely will improve as time goes by. But he could probably be a decent 2nd line center with PP/PK duties in the NHL today. That's pretty much the worst I can see him ending up. I think he's going to be a great 1st line C.

Laine on the other hand is borderline useless if he's not getting top-minutes and high PP time. I'm not saying he's not going to be marvelous player and he can even end up being better than Matthews. But as of now, I think Laine is still developing his game and we don't know where his insane curve is going to take him. Maybe we'll see him end up being 30+30 kind of 1st line winger. Which is not bad at all. Or maybe we see him being an annual top-5 scorer and legitimate Rocket threat.

I definitely can see why some people think Laine is going to be better (or already is) than Matthews. It's just the way sports world works. When Ovechkin was at his peak there was still abundance of people who thought Malkin/Crosby/Dats was better than him. The fact that majority of scouts still think Matthews is BPA is telling. But it's also telling that some of the scouts have changed their opinion and majority of them are saying it's really close. That's how well Laine has done in 2016.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Why do the leafs need another winger?

Marner isn't a centre, and nylander is a hybrid.

Matthews is a true centre.

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

This is nonsense no he doesn't/


Just because Matthews is better now does not mean Laine has more room to grow. This idea that just because he has a high floor a player has a low ceiling is ridiculous.

Matthews is better now AND he has higher upside. This is why he is the number 1 pick. Even if Laine were a center, he's still the number 1 pick.


Love the detractors trying to downplay him as a 60 point 2 way center.... He'll be close to that in his rookie season (Eichel 56 points and he's as good or better than Eichel according to most now that he has his draft year under his belt....Outproduced Eichel at the same age).

Try 80 point 2 way center. Top 10 scoring potential with the ability to maybe dip into the top 5 in a couple of years. Laine has similar upside offensively but away from the puck Matthews takes the cake and he can still very much grow in that department as well.

You didn't get what I was aiming at saying. Laine hasn't shown his best that often so far, and Matthews has shown his best a lot. It's about who has a larger margin to evolve, that's what I meant. Matthews is already close to NHL level, if not an NHL level player, but Laine isn't in some ways. Laine therefore has more room to evolve compared to Matthews.

 

[Mahonkinen]

Why do the leafs need another winger?

Marner isn't a centre, and nylander is a hybrid.

Matthews is a true centre.

This thread is about whos better prospect/has higher ceiling/bettar at the moment. Not what Leafs should draft.