Value of: Auction: James van Riemsdyk

[Hunter368]

Makes me wonder if he'd consider a discount to ride the Leafs youth train....

That sounds kinda inappropriate

 

[Randy Randerson]

Makes me wonder if he'd consider a discount to ride the Leafs youth train....

If he's staying, I think there's a good case to make that he'd take a discount to get his big contract secured rather than risk injury/regression this year. A torn ACL or something could cost him $20M. I don't think it would be something way under market, but maybe $5.5-$5.75x7

personally, I'd rather give Kapanen/Leivo/Grundstom/Timashov/Johnsson/Korshkov a roster spot to play for

 

[Liferleafer]

That sounds kinda inappropriate

Mind meet gutter....

 

[phillipmike]

I'm saying that there is no precedence for your expectation, and even if there was, it's still unlikely to happen in this case. The fact that your choosing to question the validity of my request for precedence twice now rather than actually countering anything I'm saying, tells me you don't actually have any counterpoint.

Usually an expectation comes with some sort reasoning behind it. Expecting JVR to bring back a precedent setting return just seems like wishful thinking to me.

Well it seems like a moot point as you say where is the precedence then continue to say well even if you find one i still wont agree with your feelings on the matter.

I do agree with you that trying to find a comparable deal where two different GMs made a trade under two different circumstances has little bearing on what anyone think might/should happen - so i didnt bother to look. Very rarely (and i mean extremely rarely) do substantial hockey deals happen where impact players are involved (NHL players for NHL players; i can only thinking of Panarin-Saad and before that Jones-RJ) so i wouldnt rely or try to find a comparable.

Most trades are teams looking to unload a player for younger assets (picks and prospects) or vice versa. I believe if Anaheim wanted futures for Vatanen they would have made a deal by now (look what Hamonic went for). I think Anaheim is looking for a hockey trade; NHL scoring as the principle for a defensemen (doesnt have to be Vatanen but due to his contract and injury i think Anaheim wants to keep the younger defense so Vats is a strong candidate). Now that the draft is over and Anaheim's biggest moves were losing Theodore, Despres and Stoner coupled with long term injuries to Hampus, Vats and Kesler. They only added Miller and re-signed Eaves and Fowler (was back for next season anyways) - so we are looking at losing potentially 5 plus regulars on opening night and only have Miller and Eaves to show for it). The Ducks still need to make improvements to their roster and a player like JVR would do that. Eaves is a great top 9 winger but i am skeptical as before last season the last time he played 70+ games was almost 10 years ago in 2008-09 and he missed the last 10 games of the Ducks season with a high ankle sprain. We will see if he can stay healthy and become more than the 30-35 point player he was before being put on a line with Benn and Seguin. He proved to be an excellent fit playing with Getzlaf and Rakell. A JVR-Getzlaf-Eaves line would look nice and if no other moves are on the horizon then that might open Rakell up to play centre for Kesler.

Keep in mind the reason why i suggested JVR for Vatanen (never once did i say it would be straight up though conversely i didnt outline that there would be more to the deal so i take blame for that but i didnt think i would be getting grilled - i do think if a deal is to be made it would be JVR+ for Vatanen to compensate for the difference in term) is for a list of reasons;

-Toronto has an abundance of scoring; namely wingers and needs defense
-Anaheim has an abundance of defense; needs scoring - wing is easier to get
There is a fit for a trade

-Toronto was 5th in goals for and 22nd in goals against
-Anaheim was 17th in goals for and 3rd in goals against
There is a fit for a trade

-Toronto has been heavily rumored to move a winger to make room for other players and JVR is the 1st name to come up
-Anaheim has been heavily rumored to move a defensemen to make room for younger players and Vatanen's name is the 1st to come up
Both players might be available on the market

-Murray has made 17 trades with the Leafs since he took over in 2008; most he has made with any team (Made a total of 103 trades - 17% of his trades are with the Leafs)
-Lou has made 15 trades since becoming the Leafs GM and 3 have been with Murray's Ducks (20% of his trades) All in the last calendar year.
These two GMs and teams work well together in trade

Both are teams looking to contend so logic might tell me that both will look for NHL returns where the principle components will be NHL players to help the team win now. I dont know a lot of teams with a defense surplus (maybe Carolina) or many with wing surplus the Leafs have so i feel like it might be a good fit.

So no i havent looked for a precedence (as i dont think it really helps) but there is a deal that trades from both team's strengths to address a weakness and a deep history between both teams and GMs.

I wont go too much more into why the Leafs would be interested in a JVR+ for Vatanen deal because it is obvious and might have became more obvious hearing the leaked Hamonic-JVR rumors. Though i will say Babcock and Lou were both at the Ducks-Preds game scouting and everything i said before has me thinking they were scouting their most frequent trade partners in the Ducks. Maybe the hold up is Vatanen's injury recover or a JVR extension (as it was rumored to be in the Hamonic deal). OR maybe there is no deal at all - who knows but i think everything stacks up and deal is there that can make sense for both especially now with the Marleau signing (a LW who the Ducks were after).

JVR would address a huge need for Anaheim at LW. Correct me if i am wrong but their LW depth consisted of Cogliano, Ritchie, and other guys playing their off wings. Not to mention Kesler is hurt and may not start the season with the Ducks. Add in Lindholm and Vatanen as well. JVR is ready to play and can play the entire season. We dont know how long Vatanen could be out for but he might not be back until late October or maybe November and still dont know how he responds so it would be JVR+ for an uncertain 0.75 of a season of Vatanen and a healthy Vatanen for 2 seasons.

JVR had 29 goals and 62 points playing under 16 minutes a night. He would have been 2nd in scoring on the Ducks behind only Getzlaf (2nd in goals behind Rakell) and would have been 6th in ice time among all Ducks forwards. Give him top 3 ice time with Getzlaf and he would flourish and moves everyone else down a slot which might help Ritchie's long term development by keeping him a role where it isnt asking too much of him (3rd line) to help him become that top line LW.

Let's not act like extending JVR isnt an option for the Ducks either. He fits a need and they will have the money with Vatanen going the other way and guys like Bieksa, Cogs, Vermette all coming off the books. Also Despres' cap hit becomes a credit for 2 seasons. Ducks have traded for players in recent years with 2 years or less of control and extended them right away or a few months later - Kesler, Bieksa and now Eaves comes to mind. So this isnt out of the ordinary plus i would assume JVR wouldnt mind living in California playing with Getzlaf on a cup contender for the next 5+ years and i am sure Anaheim would be after him if he were a FA like they were after Marleau.

The fit is there if you want to see it.

I am not a Ducks expert by any means so please correct me if i am wrong on anything i wrote. Its a simple dealing a strength to address a weakness for both teams. But yes i do agree with you that the Leafs would have to likely offer more in addition to JVR to compensate for two years extra Vatanen is under contract for.

 

[Hunter368]

Mind meet gutter....

Guilty as charged.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Well it seems like a moot point as you say where is the precedence then continue to say well even if you find one i still wont agree with your feelings on the matter.

I do agree with you that trying to find a comparable deal where two different GMs made a trade under two different circumstances has little bearing on what anyone think might/should happen - so i didnt bother to look. Very rarely (and i mean extremely rarely) do substantial hockey deals happen where impact players are involved (NHL players for NHL players; i can only thinking of Panarin-Saad and before that Jones-RJ) so i wouldnt rely or try to find a comparable.

Most trades are teams looking to unload a player for younger assets (picks and prospects) or vice versa. I believe if Anaheim wanted futures for Vatanen they would have made a deal by now (look what Hamonic went for). I think Anaheim is looking for a hockey trade; NHL scoring as the principle for a defensemen (doesnt have to be Vatanen but due to his contract and injury i think Anaheim wants to keep the younger defense so Vats is a strong candidate). Now that the draft is over and Anaheim's biggest moves were losing Theodore, Despres and Stoner coupled with long term injuries to Hampus, Vats and Kesler. They only added Miller and re-signed Eaves and Fowler (was back for next season anyways) - so we are looking at losing potentially 5 plus regulars on opening night and only have Miller and Eaves to show for it). The Ducks still need to make improvements to their roster and a player like JVR would do that. Eaves is a great top 9 winger but i am skeptical as before last season the last time he played 70+ games was almost 10 years ago in 2008-09 and he missed the last 10 games of the Ducks season with a high ankle sprain. We will see if he can stay healthy and become more than the 30-35 point player he was before being put on a line with Benn and Seguin. He proved to be an excellent fit playing with Getzlaf and Rakell. A JVR-Getzlaf-Eaves line would look nice and if no other moves are on the horizon then that might open Rakell up to play centre for Kesler.

Keep in mind the reason why i suggested JVR for Vatanen (never once did i say it would be straight up though conversely i didnt outline that there would be more to the deal so i take blame for that but i didnt think i would be getting grilled - i do think if a deal is to be made it would be JVR+ for Vatanen to compensate for the difference in term) is for a list of reasons;

-Toronto has an abundance of scoring; namely wingers and needs defense
-Anaheim has an abundance of defense; needs scoring - wing is easier to get
There is a fit for a trade

-Toronto was 5th in goals for and 22nd in goals against
-Anaheim was 17th in goals for and 3rd in goals against
There is a fit for a trade

-Toronto has been heavily rumored to move a winger to make room for other players and JVR is the 1st name to come up
-Anaheim has been heavily rumored to move a defensemen to make room for younger players and Vatanen's name is the 1st to come up
Both players might be available on the market

-Murray has made 17 trades with the Leafs since he took over in 2008; most he has made with any team (Made a total of 103 trades - 17% of his trades are with the Leafs)
-Lou has made 15 trades since becoming the Leafs GM and 3 have been with Murray's Ducks (20% of his trades) All in the last calendar year.
These two GMs and teams work well together in trade

Both are teams looking to contend so logic might tell me that both will look for NHL returns where the principle components will be NHL players to help the team win now. I dont know a lot of teams with a defense surplus (maybe Carolina) or many with wing surplus the Leafs have so i feel like it might be a good fit.

So no i havent looked for a precedence (as i dont think it really helps) but there is a deal that trades from both team's strengths to address a weakness and a deep history between both teams and GMs.

I wont go too much more into why the Leafs would be interested in a JVR+ for Vatanen deal because it is obvious and might have became more obvious hearing the leaked Hamonic-JVR rumors. Though i will say Babcock and Lou were both at the Ducks-Preds game scouting and everything i said before has me thinking they were scouting their most frequent trade partners in the Ducks. Maybe the hold up is Vatanen's injury recover or a JVR extension (as it was rumored to be in the Hamonic deal). OR maybe there is no deal at all - who knows but i think everything stacks up and deal is there that can make sense for both especially now with the Marleau signing (a LW who the Ducks were after).

JVR would address a huge need for Anaheim at LW. Correct me if i am wrong but their LW depth consisted of Cogliano, Ritchie, and other guys playing their off wings. Not to mention Kesler is hurt and may not start the season with the Ducks. Add in Lindholm and Vatanen as well. JVR is ready to play and can play the entire season. We dont know how long Vatanen could be out for but he might not be back until late October or maybe November and still dont know how he responds so it would be JVR+ for an uncertain 0.75 of a season of Vatanen and a healthy Vatanen for 2 seasons.

JVR had 29 goals and 62 points playing under 16 minutes a night. He would have been 2nd in scoring on the Ducks behind only Getzlaf (2nd in goals behind Rakell) and would have been 6th in ice time among all Ducks forwards. Give him top 3 ice time with Getzlaf and he would flourish and moves everyone else down a slot which might help Ritchie's long term development by keeping him a role where it isnt asking too much of him (3rd line) to help him become that top line LW.

Let's not act like extending JVR isnt an option for the Ducks either. He fits a need and they will have the money with Vatanen going the other way and guys like Bieksa, Cogs, Vermette all coming off the books. Also Despres' cap hit becomes a credit for 2 seasons. Ducks have traded for players in recent years with 2 years or less of control and extended them right away or a few months later - Kesler, Bieksa and now Eaves comes to mind. So this isnt out of the ordinary plus i would assume JVR wouldnt mind living in California playing with Getzlaf on a cup contender for the next 5+ years and i am sure Anaheim would be after him if he were a FA like they were after Marleau.

The fit is there if you want to see it.

I am not a Ducks expert by any means so please correct me if i am wrong on anything i wrote. Its a simple dealing a strength to address a weakness for both teams. But yes i do agree with you that the Leafs would have to likely offer more in addition to JVR to compensate for two years extra Vatanen is under contract for.

Whatever money you think is there moving forward is already earmarked for raises to key players such as Fowler, Manson, Silfverberg and Gibson over the next couple seasons. There just isn't room to offer JVR a big extension and have $30M+ wrapped up in four veteran forwards when we need to sign those other players.

That's why we keep telling you that JVR is a rental as far as the Ducks are concerned, and it's quite unrealistic of you to expect JVR to be the first rental winger ever to return a top 4 D with term.

Murray makes it clear year after year that he doesn't believe in giving up key assets for short term gain, he's the last GM you should expect to give up a precedent setting return to rent JVR for a year, and that's as long a as the Ducks can conceivably afford him for.

 

[Pelle31]

James VanRiemsdyk, Andrew Nielson, 2nd
for
Noah Hanifin

Ron Francis would be shot if he made that trade. You don't trade a potential number one defenseman for a player who's going to be UFA at year-end. Toronto is better off waiting until the trade deadline to see if there is a dumb GM who is willing to overpay to get JVR.

 

[McLeafy]

Fabbro, 2019 2nd and Aberg

JVR and Fehr (if extension is in place for JVR).

This is the type of deal we should be looking at.

 

[All_blueandwhite]

JVR is better than Eberle. He's also a power-forward, which is highly valued in this league.

Ehhhh lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

As a Leafs fan, JVR is one of the softest players I've ever seen. Doesn't mean he's not a very useful player, but you take the good with the bad with him.

 

[phillipmike]

Whatever money you think is there moving forward is already earmarked for raises to key players such as Fowler, Manson, Silfverberg and Gibson over the next couple seasons. There just isn't room to offer JVR a big extension and have $30M+ wrapped up in four veteran forwards when we need to sign those other players.

Fair point to make but with the cap rising it is definitely possible especially considering JVR would probably be the Ducks best point producing winger and easily a top 5 maybe 3 forward on their team.

That's why we keep telling you that JVR is a rental as far as the Ducks are concerned, and it's quite unrealistic of you to expect JVR to be the first rental winger ever to return a top 4 D with term.

Again leaving out that i repeatedly say i expect more coming back in the deal for Anaheim to compensate the loss of term. Also leaving out that hockey trades are very rare so there probably have been 5-10 of these trades made in the last 10 years so it would be near impossible to find a comparable. Its like me asking for when was the last time a captain was traded for a captain - prior to the St. Louis for Callahan deal it has been awhile or never happened. Or a current captain traded to a teams #1 rival - prior to the Phaneuf deal it probably hasnt happened.

There as been a lot of things that hasnt happened over the years that didnt have a strong precedence nonetheless still happened.

Leafs fans have been talking about Stamkos coming home, signing Babcock, drafting McDavid, drafting Matthews, drafting Liljegren, signing Thornton and Marleau, trading for Vatanen, Brodin, Hamonic, and others. Some of these things happen some of the dont - its just talk in a trade forum. And i dont think i am offering anything ridiculous as you can see from my long post - i did give it a lot of thought.

Murray makes it clear year after year that he doesn't believe in giving up key assets for short term gain, he's the last GM you should expect to give up a precedent setting return to rent JVR for a year, and that's as long a as the Ducks can conceivably afford him for.

Eaves just literally went for a 1st who was a rental. Sure he signed him but at the time of the deal Eaves had a contract with a few months to go and Murray gave up a conditional 2nd round pick that turned into a 1st.

Once again you refer to just JVR for Vats. You leave out the concept that i know more would have to go to Anaheim.

Even a Ducks fan said they would consider JVR+ for Vatanen in the " Proposal: Vatanen For Kadri" thread. Also claiming that they could fit an extension in. Its not a delusional thought by any means.

 

[Liferleafer]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?blogger_id=1

A little Eklund beauty about Benning wanting JVR+pick+Dman for Tanev.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Fabbro, 2019 2nd and Aberg

JVR and Fehr (if extension is in place for JVR).

The offer in terms of value is better probably than anything that's been posted.

My own preference though is to get a more established player in return.

 

[liquiduck]

Fair point to make but with the cap rising it is definitely possible especially considering JVR would probably be the Ducks best point producing winger and easily a top 5 maybe 3 forward on their team.



Again leaving out that i repeatedly say i expect more coming back in the deal for Anaheim to compensate the loss of term. Also leaving out that hockey trades are very rare so there probably have been 5-10 of these trades made in the last 10 years so it would be near impossible to find a comparable. Its like me asking for when was the last time a captain was traded for a captain - prior to the St. Louis for Callahan deal it has been awhile or never happened. Or a current captain traded to a teams #1 rival - prior to the Phaneuf deal it probably hasnt happened.

There as been a lot of things that hasnt happened over the years that didnt have a strong precedence nonetheless still happened.

Leafs fans have been talking about Stamkos coming home, signing Babcock, drafting McDavid, drafting Matthews, drafting Liljegren, signing Thornton and Marleau, trading for Vatanen, Brodin, Hamonic, and others. Some of these things happen some of the dont - its just talk in a trade forum. And i dont think i am offering anything ridiculous as you can see from my long post - i did give it a lot of thought.



Eaves just literally went for a 1st who was a rental. Sure he signed him but at the time of the deal Eaves had a contract with a few months to go and Murray gave up a conditional 2nd round pick that turned into a 1st.

Once again you refer to just JVR for Vats. You leave out the concept that i know more would have to go to Anaheim.

Even a Ducks fan said they would consider JVR+ for Vatanen in the " Proposal: Vatanen For Kadri" thread. Also claiming that they could fit an extension in. Its not a delusional thought by any means.

Not having precedence for something means exactly that, it's unprecedented. It doesent mean impossible.

Yes, BM just paid a 1st for a player that was a rental at the time. That's the first time that's happened in a decade since he's been GM.

Anaheim probably could extend him if both sides were interested, but that's besides the point. Extending JVR would risk not being able to extend better players, like Manson and Silfverberg.

Beyond that JVR isn't the type of player you want to commit a lot of money or term too. He's essentially eberle 2.0.

 

[Sojourn]

Eaves just literally went for a 1st who was a rental. Sure he signed him but at the time of the deal Eaves had a contract with a few months to go and Murray gave up a conditional 2nd round pick that turned into a 1st.

Once again you refer to just JVR for Vats. You leave out the concept that i know more would have to go to Anaheim.

Even a Ducks fan said they would consider JVR+ for Vatanen in the " Proposal: Vatanen For Kadri" thread. Also claiming that they could fit an extension in. Its not a delusional thought by any means.

I'm not trying to nitpick here, but a conditional 2nd round pick that could become a 1st is wildly different than a straight up 1st. They were pretty tough conditions too. Anaheim had to make the Conference Finals, and Eaves had to play in at least 50% of the games.

It's a little dishonest to say that Eaves just went for a 1st. He went for a 2nd, with the possibility it could turn into a low 1st. Murray guaranteed that Anaheim would have their 1st round pick if they didn't go deep into the playoffs.

 

[The Podium]

Fabbro, 2019 2nd and Aberg

JVR and Fehr (if extension is in place for JVR).

With Nashvilles track record I support a trade for Fabbro. Some Leaf fans will ask for a D a bit more established, but IMHO Fabbro fits the age of this team and 3 years down the road when the big 3 are signed at a huge cap hit, having a young D on his ELC really coming into his own can be extremely valuable.

Nashville can even keep Aberg (assuming it isn't a 50 contract limit thing), as hell just get lost in the shuffle here

 

[leeroggy]

Inexpensive Right Handed Defenseman!

Here's the perfect fit . . .

At least 20 years until UFA status

Cost controlled for a long time

Plenty of room for growth

Likes to take the body and unafraid to use the stick

Can get off the shot quickly

and a legitimate RH defender!

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Hickey + CGY 2nd

Who?

 

[Leafs24Seven*]

Lucic does 100 different things that JVR does not.

True, his Sylvester Stallone imitation is 100 times better than JVR's. I guess it pays having his nose broke so many times in fights he has lost, he is very nasally.

Leafs keep JVR to ensure Hyman gets bumped to the 3rd or 4th line

"yo Adriannn!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VyzII09Hos