ATD2018 - Draft Thread 2

[BenchBrawl]

Lach centered Rocket Richard!!! Wasn't Richard a puck hog would didn't like to give the puck back? At least Lafleur equally looks to pass as to shoot.

I see Maurice Richard as a striker.Once it was in his head to try to score a goal, nothing would stop him.But other than that, I don't think Richard was like Jagr cerebrally controlling the puck in the zone all the time.Then again, I could be wrong.

I see Lafleur as between Jagr and Richard in that regard.

 

[BenchBrawl]

As for Lafleur, I think he was all instincts, all flair.He could probably adapt well to any sort of offensive tactics, the crucial thing I would focus with him is that the center is defensively responsible, moreso than whether he is a playmaker or goalscorer or whatever.

Lafleur is basically an example of the difference between smart and cerebral.He wasn't cerebral, but he was smart opportunistically and instinctually.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

If you're gonna compare Bentley's 1,3,4 Hart finishes to Gilmour's 2,4,5 (as well as 1st team all star selections), then you have to asterix Gilmour's 2 was behind an insane year by Mario Lemieux and his 5th in Hart was behind Gretzky and Lemeiux (no chance at even 2nd team all star).

Gilmour (and some other HHOF greats at center) were unfortunate enough to have played in the era of the greatest centers.

I dunno why one would compare to VERY different style players.

Lalonde said in the 1950's that he didn't see himself in Hull, Richard or Lindsay but in the playmaking of Kennedy.

How about comparing Bentley to Kennedy? THAT would be apt.

I already went over the AST and Hart finishes. 1993 was an insane year for Lemieux from a PPG perspective, but it was hardly insane if you only look at what he accomplished that year. Lemieux's margin of victory over 2nd place was less than Crosby's 2014 win, and I doubt anyone's going to asterisk Crosby's 2014.

As for the 1987 5th place Hart finish, Gretzky was insane and I already agreed with that. Lemieux was hardly insane in 1987. He was your typical top-10 scorer that year. Look past the name. The only exception in 1987 was Gretzky.

And I don't understand this at all:

I dunno why one would compare to VERY different style players.

And then tell me to compare Kennedy and Bentley...

 

[BenchBrawl]

I already went over the AST and Hart finishes. 1993 was an insane year for Lemieux from a PPG perspective, but it was hardly insane if you only look at what he accomplished that year. Lemieux's margin of victory over 2nd place was less than Crosby's 2014 win, and I doubt anyone's going to asterisk Crosby's 2014.

As for the 1987 5th place Hart finish, Gretzky was insane and I already agreed with that. Lemieux was hardly insane in 1987. He was your typical top-10 scorer that year. Look past the name. The only exception in 1987 was Gretzky.

And I don't understand this at all:



And then tell me to compare Kennedy and Bentley...

What lol.Even with the shortened season, Lemieux was extremely strong competition for the Hart and AST, especially if you throw in the sentimental and feel-good story giving him tremendous mediatic momentum, or just the absurd degree in which he dominated games.

1993 Lemieux is the last time we saw a Top 4 player at the peak of his power.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

What lol.Even with the shortened season, Lemieux was extremely strong competition for the Hart and AST, especially if you throw in the sentimental and feel-good story giving him tremendous mediatic momentum.

No more than Crosby in 2014. As I said, Lemieux's margin of victory over 2nd place was even less than Crosby's in 2014. No one is going to treat Crosby's 2014 as an exception, so I don't see why Lemieux's 1993 would get special treatment. Special in the PPG department, yes, but from a raw points perspective, no.

 

[BenchBrawl]

No more than Crosby in 2014. As I said, Lemieux's margin of victory over 2nd place was even less than Crosby's in 2014. No one is going to treat Crosby's 2014 as an exception, so I don't see why Lemieux's 1993 would get special treatment. Special in the PPG department, yes, but from a raw points perspective, no.

Margin of victory for the Hart? According to hockey reference, Lemieux got 49 1st place out of 50.Are you talking about VsX? Because from VanI's post this discussion seems to be about Hart finishes.

Yes, in VsX Lemieux' total is not an outlier.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Margin of victory for the Hart? According to hockey reference, Lemieux got 49 1st place out of 50.Are you talking about VsX? Because from VanI's post this discussion seems to be about Hart finishes.

I was talking about points, which is pretty much the only reason to vote for Lemieux for the Hart. Lemieux was definitely the best player in 1993, and he should've gotten all the Hart votes. But, what I'm talking about is that 1993 is hardly a legendary year like 1953 Howe, 1928 Morenz, 1982 or 1986 Gretzky. I'm trying to say that 1993 Lemieux was not a super god or something, due to his missing a bunch of games. He was beatable, but someone needed to really step it up, just against Gretzky in the 90s, or 2014 Crosby.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I was talking about points, which is pretty much the only reason to vote for Lemieux for the Hart. Lemieux was definitely the best player in 1993, and he should've gotten all the Hart votes. But, what I'm talking about is that 1993 is hardly a legendary year like 1953 Howe, 1928 Morenz, 1982 or 1986 Gretzky. I'm trying to say that 1993 Lemieux was not a super god or something, due to his missing a bunch of games. He was beatable, but someone needed to really step it up, just against Gretzky in the 90s, or 2014 Crosby.

Sure, due to his injury he was beatable in points.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Sure, due to his injury he was beatable in points.

Yes, and therefore in Hart voting.

I'm looking at it like this. If you take Gilmour's 1993 season and compare it to a strong Hart season, would he win? Of course, we first need to define what a strong Hart season is. For me, a strong Hart season is along the lines of Crosby in 2014, Malkin in 2012, xxx in 2016 etc. Would Gilmour win against these years? If the answer isn't a 100% yes, then his Hart vote should not be bumped up.

Of course, this is with the caveat that one views Lemieux's 1993 season as simply a strong season, which I do.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yes, and therefore in Hart voting.

I'm looking at it like this. If you take Gilmour's 1993 season and compare it to a strong Hart season, would he win? Of course, we first need to define what a strong Hart season is. For me, a strong Hart season is along the lines of Crosby in 2014, Malkin in 2012, xxxxxxx etc. Would Gilmour win against these years? If the answer isn't a 100% yes, then his Hart vote should not be bumped up.

Of course, this is with the caveat that one views Lemieux's 1993 season as simply a strong season, which I do.

Not sure I agree with that inference.Even if a random star scored 163 points, I doubt he would win the Hart against Lemieux' big come back and absurd domination.Even if a star beat him good, say 175 pts or whatever, it's still not clear.He was that spectacular.

Do you remember watching him in 1993? Nothing like it since.

As for Gilmour; I don't know.Case by case.The thing about Gilmour's 1993 is that it includes a massive playoff run too.This is part of the legend, and it's hard to separate RS and PO in that legend.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Not sure I agree with that inference.Even if a random star scored 163 points, I doubt he would win the Hart against Lemieux' big come back and absurd domination.

Do you remember watching him in 1993? Nothing like it since.

Can't say I was a fan back then. From what you say, it seems like Lemieux's season was backed by a strong media narrative focusing on his off-ice struggles. Regardless of that, I do agree that Lemieux was the best player that year and should have gotten all the Hart votes. I get what you're saying. In combination with his on-ice performance, the name on the back of the jersey and the off-ice story, Lemieux's bid for the Hart was pretty much assured. I'm not going to disagree with that, but if we just look at on-ice performance, than it was simply a strong season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sprague, please be a little more careful about dropping the names of undrafted players

 

[BenchBrawl]

Can't say I was a fan back then. From what you say, it seems like Lemieux's season was backed by a strong media narrative focusing on his off-ice struggles. Regardless of that, I do agree that Lemieux was the best player that year and should have gotten all the Hart votes. I get what you're saying. In combination with his on-ice performance, the name on the back of the jersey and the off-ice story, Lemieux's bid for the Hart was pretty much assured. I'm not going to disagree with that, but if we just look at on-ice performance, than it was simply a strong season.

If we just look at the point totals, it was simply a strong season.On-ice performance hasn't been equaled since, but I guess you meant on paper.Still, his level was so high.A man among boys.That leaves a mark on voters' mind.He was hungry like he had never been when he came back, just a shame they blew it in the PO.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Sprague, please be a little more careful about dropping the names of undrafted players

Edited it from his quote in my post.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

If we just look at the point totals, it was simply a strong season.On-ice performance hasn't been equaled since, but I guess you meant on paper.Still, his level was so high.A man among boys.That leaves a mark on voters' mind.He was hungry like he had never been when he came back, just a shame they blew it in the PO.

Yeah, PPG wise it was an absurd season, and if he had played a full season, it would be up there with 1982 and '86 Gretzky, '53 Howe, '70 Orr etc. But, in the end, the stats sheet showed 168 points and a margin of victory of 12.7%, which while great, is hardly transcendental.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yeah, PPG wise it was an absurd season, and if he had played a full season, it would be up there with 1982 and '86 Gretzky, '53 Howe, '70 Orr etc. But, in the end, the stats sheet showed 168 points and a margin of victory of 12.7%, which while great, is hardly transcendental.

No, but you're looking at it too coldly.When it was happening in real time that Lemieux came back and dominated to that extent both visually and on the score sheet, it has an impact on the fans and voters and medias, which is transcendental.

But of course, him actually winning the title boosts the story quite a bit.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No, but you're looking at it too coldly.When it was happening in real time that Lemieux came back and dominated to that extent both visually and on the score sheet, it has an impact on the fans and voters and medias, which is transcendental.

But of course, him actually winning the title boosts the story quite a bit.

Kind of like Lemieux finishing 2nd in Hart voting in 2000-01, eh?

1992-93 Gilmour would have won the Hart in most other seasons. Hell, the writers felt so bad for not being able to give him the Hart, that that effectively changed the definition of the Selke (which previously tended to go to checking line players), so they could give him something.

Edit: I just thought of a counterargument to myself - Gilmour was only 7th in scoring in 1992-93, so it's possible that if Lemieux didn't blow everyone away, a lot of writers would have given their 1st place vote to whoever ended up winning the Art Ross

 

[BenchBrawl]

Kind of like Lemieux finishing 2nd in Hart voting in 2000-01, eh?

1992-93 Gilmour would have won the Hart in most other seasons. Hell, the writers felt so bad for not being able to give him the Hart, that that effectively changed the definition of the Selke (which previously tended to go to checking line players), so they could give him something.

Right lol Forgot about this.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Even in 95-96, Lemieux wasn't the same player he once was, despite his 161 pts and him outscoring Jagr.I felt Jagr was a more dominant player (visually) by then, but not as good at scoring points (especially on the PP).It was the year Lemieux transitioned as a chess player.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Formatting correction to make in OP: It is "Sweeney" Schriner, not "Sweeny".And "Robitaille, not "Robataille".For future CTRL-F purposes.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I'm going to add another one to my pile of captains, hard workers, and solid two-way players.
He's only my 6th round pick, but he's still The Franchise.

Ron Francis!

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm going to add another one to my pile of captains, hard workers, and solid two-way players.
He's only my 6th round pick, but he's still The Franchise.

Ron Francis!

Phillips-Francis is a good two-way duo for a 2nd line.Your Top-6 is starting to look great.

 

[jarek]

Doughty was a great pick. I too had been following him, along with Keith and a few other relevant actives since the start of the draft.

Would have been awfully hard to pass on him had he fallen to me..

 

[kruezer]

been debating this too long and I need to focus on work!

Seattle takes D Lionel Conacher

 

[Dreakmur]

Doughty was a great pick. I too had been following him, along with Keith and a few other relevant actives since the start of the draft.

Would have been awfully hard to pass on him had he fallen to me..

Doughty was top defenseman on my list since Kasatonov was picked.