ATD2018 - Draft Thread 2

[ResilientBeast]

Where is @TorontoTrades

He was here and then left again

 

[VanIslander]

It's nice to see Sakic & Yzerman go close together, as the debate as to which is better has long legs.

The following sets also used to be hotly contested, and it was an open question as to whom was better.

When I was young, these three were seen as comparable:

13. Claude the Fraud - Winnipeg Jets - Larry Robinson, D
76. Namba 17 - Portage Lakes Hockey Club - Guy Lapointe, D
84. Claude the Fraud - Winnipeg Jets - Serge Savard, D

The value seems to come with the later picked ones when which is better is debatable.

15. kruezer - Seattle Metropolitans - Dominik Hasek, G
24. ImporterExporter - Pittsburgh Bankers - Patrick Roy, G

This one stumps me. Was it the 2006 run in Edmonton that changed things? The better Duck blueliner was always questioned:

42. tinyzombies - N.D.G. Maroons - Chris Pronger, D
90. tinyzombies - N.D.G. Maroons - Scott Niedermayer, D

I enjoyed the HfBoards debates about these two:

43. ResilientBeast - Edmonton Oilers - Fred "Cyclone" Taylor, C
60. Iceman - Stockholm Rockets - Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde, C

When the best was Tretiak vs. Dryden in my youth, these three were the best of all time, each with a lot of supporters (Hall less so, just among the media and Blackhawk fans I recall, at least until this century and HfBoards):

45. 29GoalHoglund - Brampton Beavers - Jacques Plante, G
58. Darth Yoda - Pominville Estacades - Glenn Hall, G
73. VanIslander - Worcester Railers - Terry Sawchuk, G

 

[tinyzombies]

The Quebec Chronicle is a great find as a ressource on the Bulldog.Wish I had that in 2016.I will get to it regardless.BTW overpass, I'll send you the pictures tomorrow at the latest.

I knew Dink Carroll around 1988. He was probably 78 himself. I was a sports reporter at the college paper in Montreal and he came to cover the national bball tourney at our school. Our sports director was nice enough to introduce me. Big guy, tough talker. Hung out with him all weekend and gave him the scouting reports I had gathered of all the teams.

 

[TorontoTrades]

Sorry guys just getting home from work. Pick in shortly.

 

[TorontoTrades]

Port Stanley Sailors select Luc Robitaille, LW

8x All Star
Stanley Cup Champion
8 seasons with 44 or more goals
12th all time in goals

 

[BenchBrawl]

I knew Dink Carroll around 1988. He was probably 78 himself. I was a sports reporter at the college paper in Montreal and he came to cover the national bball tourney at our school. Our sports director was nice enough to introduce me. Big guy, tough talker. Hung out with him all weekend and gave him the scouting reports I had gathered of all the teams.

That's awesome.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Port Stanley Sailors select Luc Robitaille, LW

8x All Star
Stanley Cup Champion
8 seasons with 44 or more goals
12th all time in goals

Will you play Robitaille with Datsyuk and Jagr?

 

[TorontoTrades]

Will you play Robitaille with Datsyuk and Jagr?

no my plan is to have him be on the 2nd line, I have someone else in mind for the top line LW.

 

[BenchBrawl]

no my plan is to have him be on the 2nd line, I have someone else in mind for the top line LW.

Ah ok, cool.Looking forward to seeing it.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Just for fun. Max Bentley vs Doug Gilmour (looking at it strictly in a vacuum, so no team building perspective or whatever)

Offense

Bentley: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Gilmour: 4, 5, 7

Bentley has a 7 year VsX of 90.4 compared to Gilmour's 82.0. Ten year VsX has Bentley with a score of 80.0 compared to Gilmour's 77.1. That's a difference of 9.74% and 3.69% respectively. Gilmour makes up quite a bit of ground in the 10 year version, but it's still not enough to beat Bentley.

In addition, you could argue Bentley's VsX score underrates him. He missed two prime years to the war. 1944 and 1945 look to be great opportunities for Bentley to put up massive scores because a) he gets two extra years playing for the Hawks who were all offense, and b) two more years with his bro. As it stands right now, two of his 7 year VsX scores are weaker offensive years with Toronto.

Meanwhile, Gilmour's VsX score looks to be an accurate representation of his offensive capabilities. He missed a few games here and there, but nothing to the extent like Lindros and Geoffrion that it would massively underrate his VsX score.

Bentley is clearly the better offensive player as shown by VsX and the difference could be even larger if WW2 hadn't happened.

Defense

Easy win for Gilmour here. Gilmour's bios are filled with quotes and anecdotes about his great defensive play. Gilmour could arguably be top-20 all-time defensively among forwards. Best case scenario with Bentley is that he sometimes tried.

Award recognition

Bentley

• AST voting finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4
• Hart: 1, 3, 4

Gilmour

• AST voting finishes: 3, 3, 5, 7
• Hart: 2, 4, 5

Bentley was viewed more highly amongst his peers according to AST results. Of course, Bentley did not have to face Gretzky or Lemieux. However, out of the three years that Gilmour received AST votes, Lemieux and/or Gretzky weren't exactly unstoppable in two of them. 1987 is the only unfair year, and if you want, you can bump his 5th place finish that year to a 4th. 1993 wasn't anything special since Lemieux was injured and the water spout wasn't very far behind him, and Fedorov doesn't deserve the "special" treatment for 1994.

Moving on to Hart voting, it looks quite close considering competition levels. However, I'm suspecting for 1987 and 1994, Gilmour got the Clarke treatment, meaning he wasn't exactly the best player in the world but the MVP of his team. In comparison, I'm pretty sure Bentley's Hart finishes were more leaned towards best player rather than MVP of team. What am I trying to say? Like the AST suggest, Bentley was higher on the hierarchy among his peers than Gilmour was on his.

And of course, Bentley is missing two key years due to WW2, so the voting record could be even more skewed towards Bentley.

Playoffs

Let's start with the most important factor. Bentley was part of three Cup championships compared to Gilmour's one. What does this tell us? It shows that Bentley was 3x the player Gilmour was.

Anyways, Bentley was the 2nd leading scorer for the late 40s Leafs dynasty, behind only Kennedy. This is despite Bentley being on only 3 of the 4 Cup championships as he was still in Chicago in 1947. Courtesy of TDMM, here are the leading playoff scorers from 1948-1951:

1. Max Bentley (TOR) 37 points in 36 games
2. Ted Kennedy (TOR) 34 points in 36 games
3. Sid Abel (DET) 24 points in 41 games
4. Ted Lindsay (DET) 21 points in 40 games
5. Gordie Howe (DET) 20 points in 28 games
6. Sid Smith (TOR) 20 points in 26 games
7. Maurice Richard (MON) 18 points in 23 games
8. Joe Klukay (TOR) 17 points in 36 games
9. Harry Watson (TOR) 16 points in 30 games
10. George Gee (DET) 14 points in 30 games

From 1948-51, Bentley was 1st with Kennedy 3 points behind, and both significantly ahead of 3rd place Abel, and 4th place Lindsay, who played even more games. Needless to say, Bentley was an instrumental part of Toronto's last 3 Cups. There was a reason Smythe traded a five players for Bentley. What is the conclusion? Bentley was not a playoff choker, and he was pretty good.

Gilmour was also a pretty damn good playoff performer himself. We all know of his 1993 heroics. However, 1993 is not the only thing Gilmour has on his resume. He led the playoffs in scoring in 1986 (his team didn't even reach the Finals), was tied for 5th in 1989 (Cup win), and was 4th in 1994. Unlike Bentley, Gilmour combined his offense with elite defensive play.

Seventieslord had a playoff VsX thread, but the table was wrecked with the update so I'll have to calculate it myself. I'm pretty sure he used the same rules as regular VsX.

Bentley: 50 (1941), 100 (1948), 87.5 (1949), 66.7 (1950), 130 (1951); Average of 86.8
Gilmour: 100 (1986), 50 (1988), 88 (1989), 140 (1993), 90 (1994): Average of 93.7

Gilmour has a 7.57% edge on Bentley offensively, and that is with being a significantly superior defensive player to boot. Despite Bentley having two more Cups, I think Gilmour was clearly the superior playoff performer.

Conclusion

Bentley is the better offensive player and Gilmour is the superior defensive player. However, that's talking regular season only and Gilmour was clearly the better playoff performer, and that's taking into account both offense and defense. In terms of awards recognition, it seems Bentley was viewed more highly among his peers compared to Gilmour.

So, Gilmour is better defensively and in the playoffs, while Bentley is better offensively, and his trophy case looks better. Again, I think it comes down to how much weight you want to place on PO vs RS, and defense vs offense.

All, I'm going to say is that I retract my earlier statement of Gilmour being a tier below Bentley.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Never got a PM, but we're up.

Swamp Devils pick arguably the best even-strength defenseman of his generation:

Drew Doughty, D

If Doughty finishes 2017-18 as he started, he'll establish himself firmly in the Rob Blake/Shea Weber tier of defensemen, with the best playoff record of the three:

Comparison of Niedermayer, Doughty, Blake, Weber by Norris records, including a projected finish for Doughty in 2017-18

Niedermayer 1, 2, 2, 5, 9, 10, 12 (+ huge playoffs)
Doughty 1, 2, 2*, 3, 6, 7, 9 (+ big playoffs)
Blake 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8 (+small playoff bump)
Weber 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 7, 8, 10

*Doughty was second in Norris voting in the recently released PHWA Midseason Awards: PHWA Announces Midseason Awards. He was also voted the best defensive defenseman in the league.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Good stuff, thanks for breaking it down, always nice to see such posts.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well we'll be waiting for TDMM and Dreakmur probably

Seriously? I think we took more than half our clock just once. At most twice. But now that you mention it, maybe we should try to slow things down, so that we know the 2017-18 Norris finalists before ATD voting time.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Never got a PM, but we're up.

Swamp Devils pick arguably the best even-strength defenseman of his generation:

Drew Doughty, D

If Doughty finishes 2017-18 as he started, he'll establish himself firmly in the Rob Blake/Shea Weber tier of defensemen, with the best playoff record of the three:

Comparison of Niedermayer, Doughty, Blake, Weber by Norris records, including a projected finish for Doughty in 2017-18

Niedermayer 1, 2, 2, 5, 9, 10, 12 (+ huge playoffs)
Doughty 1, 2, 2*, 3, 6, 7, 9 (+ big playoffs)
Blake 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8 (+small playoff bump)
Weber 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 7, 8, 10

*Doughty was second in Norris voting in the recently released PHWA Midseason Awards: PHWA Announces Midseason Awards. He was also voted the best defensive defenseman in the league.

Yes Doughty is on the verge of passing Rob Blake.I think I even said that in the Top 60 Defensemen thread.Anyway, I was looking closely at Doughty since before the draft.This is a good spot for him, and he could have went higher.

You say Niedermayer has huge playoffs vs. big playoffs for Doughty.But how many super runs does Niedermayer have? Isn't two like Doughty (and then all the other valuable stuff which might give him the edge but maybe not in a new tier)?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just for fun. Max Bentley vs Doug Gilmour (looking at it strictly in a vacuum, so no team building perspective or whatever)

Offense

Bentley: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Gilmour: 4, 5, 7

Bentley has a 7 year VsX of 90.4 compared to Gilmour's 82.0. Ten year VsX has Bentley with a score of 80.0 compared to Gilmour's 77.1. That's a difference of 9.74% and 3.69% respectively. Gilmour makes up quite a bit of ground in the 10 year version, but it's still not enough to beat Bentley.

In addition, you could argue Bentley's VsX score underrates him. He missed two prime years to the war. 1944 and 1945 look to be great opportunities for Bentley to put up massive scores because a) he gets two extra years playing for the Hawks who were all offense, and b) two more years with his bro. As it stands right now, two of his 7 year VsX scores are weaker offensive years with Toronto.

Meanwhile, Gilmour's VsX score looks to be an accurate representation of his offensive capabilities. He missed a few games here and there, but nothing to the extent like Lindros and Geoffrion that it would massively underrate his VsX score.

Bentley is clearly the better offensive player as shown by VsX and the difference could be even larger if WW2 hadn't happened.

Defense

Easy win for Gilmour here. Gilmour's bios are filled with quotes and anecdotes about his great defensive play. Gilmour could arguably be top-20 all-time defensively among forwards. Best case scenario with Bentley is that he sometimes tried.

Award recognition

Bentley



Gilmour



Bentley was viewed more highly amongst his peers according to AST results. Of course, Bentley did not have to face Gretzky or Lemieux. However, out of the three years that Gilmour received AST votes, Lemieux and/or Gretzky weren't exactly unstoppable in two of them. 1987 is the only unfair year, and if you want, you can bump his 5th place finish that year to a 4th. 1993 wasn't anything special since Lemieux was injured and the water spout wasn't very far behind him, and Fedorov doesn't deserve the "special" treatment for 1994.

Moving on to Hart voting, it looks quite close considering competition levels. However, I'm suspecting for 1987 and 1994, Gilmour got the Clarke treatment, meaning he wasn't exactly the best player in the world but the MVP of his team. In comparison, I'm pretty sure Bentley's Hart finishes were more leaned towards best player rather than MVP of team. What am I trying to say? Like the AST suggest, Bentley was higher on the hierarchy among his peers than Gilmour was on his.

And of course, Bentley is missing two key years due to WW2, so the voting record could be even more skewed towards Bentley.

Playoffs

Let's start with the most important factor. Bentley was part of three Cup championships compared to Gilmour's one. What does this tell us? It shows that Bentley was 3x the player Gilmour was.

Anyways, Bentley was the 2nd leading scorer for the late 40s Leafs dynasty, behind only Kennedy. This is despite Bentley being on only 3 of the 4 Cup championships as he was still in Chicago in 1947. Courtesy of TDMM, here are the leading playoff scorers from 1948-1951:



From 1948-51, Bentley was 1st with Kennedy 3 points behind, and both significantly ahead of 3rd place Abel, and 4th place Lindsay, who played even more games. Needless to say, Bentley was an instrumental part of Toronto's last 3 Cups. There was a reason Smythe traded a five players for Bentley. What is the conclusion? Bentley was not a playoff choker, and he was pretty good.

Gilmour was also a pretty damn good playoff performer himself. We all know of his 1993 heroics. However, 1993 is not the only thing Gilmour has on his resume. He led the playoffs in scoring in 1986 (his team didn't even reach the Finals), was tied for 5th in 1989 (Cup win), and was 4th in 1994. Unlike Bentley, Gilmour combined his offense with elite defensive play.

Seventieslord had a playoff VsX thread, but the table was wrecked with the update so I'll have to calculate it myself. I'm pretty sure he used the same rules as regular VsX.

Bentley: 50 (1941), 100 (1948), 87.5 (1949), 66.7 (1950), 130 (1951); Average of 86.8
Gilmour: 100 (1986), 50 (1988), 88 (1989), 140 (1993), 90 (1994): Average of 93.7

Gilmour has a 7.57% edge on Bentley offensively, and that is with being a significantly superior defensive player to boot. Despite Bentley having two more Cups, I think Gilmour was clearly the superior playoff performer.

Conclusion

Bentley is the better offensive player and Gilmour is the superior defensive player. However, that's talking regular season only and Gilmour was clearly the better playoff performer, and that's taking into account both offense and defense. In terms of awards recognition, it seems Bentley was viewed more highly among his peers compared to Gilmour.

So, Gilmour is better defensively and in the playoffs, while Bentley is better offensively, and his trophy case looks better. Again, I think it comes down to how much weight you want to place on PO vs RS, and defense vs offense.

All, I'm going to say is that I retract my earlier statement of Gilmour being a tier below Bentley.

You're really shorting your own player here. Bentley missed 2 prime years to WW2, which almost certainly hurts his 7 year standard. He's a way better offensive player than Gilmour, and IMO, quite a bit better overall. Gilmour, of course, is a much better center for Guy Lafleur.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Seriously? I think we took more than half our clock just once. At most twice. But now that you mention it, maybe we should try to slow things down, so that we know the 2017-18 Norris finalists before ATD voting time.

I just meant because you weren't around at that moment

 

[BenchBrawl]

Seriously? I think we took more than half our clock just once. At most twice. But now that you mention it, maybe we should try to slow things down, so that we know the 2017-18 Norris finalists before ATD voting time.

You need to get your wife in here, we are going to have an intervention.

 

[BenchBrawl]

You're really shorting your own player here. Bentley missed 2 prime years to WW2, which almost certainly hurts his 7 year standard. He's a way better offensive player than Gilmour, and IMO, quite a bit better overall. Gilmour, of course, is a much better center for Guy Lafleur.

Gilmour is VanI's 2nd line center.Lach is centering Lafleur.Gilmour was Lafleur's center on seventieslord's team last year, however.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'll go ahead and take one of the best pure offensive players and likely the best offensive winger on the board and select Sweeny Schriner, LW. I found some new quotes to build out a new bio, he'll likely play on the Oilers second line with Ullman.

Hart Trophy Voting: 3rd (1936)
All-Star Team Voting: 1st in 1936, 2nd in 1937, 2nd in 1941, 3rd in 1939, 4th in 1938, 4th in 1945
Calder Trophy winner (1935)
Two-time Art Ross Trophy winner (1936, 1937)

6x Top 10 in Points (1st in 1936, 1st in 1937, 2nd in 1939, 7th in 1938, 8th in 1935, 10th in 1941)
5x Top 10 in Goals (2nd in 1941, 4th in 1936, 4th in 1937, 4th in 1938, 7th in 1941)
3x Top 10 in Assists (2nd in 1936, 3rd in 1937, 3rd in 1939)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Gilmour is VanI's 2nd line center.Lach is centering Lafleur.Gilmour was Lafleur's center on seventieslord's team last year, however.

I know how VanIslander's roster post is set up. Methinks he'll eventually have Gilmour center Lafleur, when questioned about the fit between Lafleur and a puck possession center like Lach.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

You're really shorting your own player here. Bentley missed 2 prime years to WW2, which almost certainly hurts his 7 year standard. He's a way better offensive player than Gilmour, and IMO, quite a bit better overall. Gilmour, of course, is a much better center for Guy Lafleur.

Yes, I did mention WW2. If we remove 1949 and either 1950, or 1952 (same score) and replace it with a generous score of 80 for Bentley, his 7 year VsX comes out to 93.9, which is a pretty large difference of 13.5%. That's an even larger gap than even Lemieux vs Beliveau.

On second thought, maybe not in the same tier with this accounted for.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I know how VanIslander's roster post is set up. Methinks he'll eventually have Gilmour center Lafleur, when questioned about the fit between Lafleur and a puck possession center like Lach.

I think Lafleur can play with a puck-possession center.Lafleur was known to rush the puck with his hair in the wind, but he wasn't like a Jagr for puck-possession.I think he was more opportunistic than that.

 

[VanIslander]

If you're gonna compare Bentley's 1,3,4 Hart finishes to Gilmour's 2,4,5 (as well as 1st team all star selections), then you have to asterix Gilmour's 2 was behind an insane year by Mario Lemieux and his 5th in Hart was behind Gretzky and Lemeiux (no chance at even 2nd team all star).

Gilmour (and some other HHOF greats at center) were unfortunate enough to have played in the era of the greatest centers.

I dunno why one would compare to VERY different style players.

Lalonde said in the 1950's that he didn't see himself in Hull, Richard or Lindsay but in the playmaking of Kennedy.

How about comparing Bentley to Kennedy? THAT would be apt.

 

[VanIslander]

I think Lafleur can play with a puck-possession center.Lafleur was known to rush the puck with his hair in the wind, but he wasn't like a Jagr as far as puck-possession goes.I think he was more opportunistic than that.

Lach centered Rocket Richard!!! Wasn't Richard a puck hog would didn't like to give the puck back? At least Lafleur equally looks to pass as to shoot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lach centered Rocket Richard!!! Wasn't Richard a puck hog would didn't like to give the puck back? At least Lafleur equally looks to pass as to shoot.

Not every superstar winger in hockey history was a puck hog