ATD 2022 - draft order in post 182

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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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I'd love to see an auction style game take place. I championed it a few years ago and was pretty close to kicking it off but the tricky parts are very tricky indeed.

1. I think you'd have to see more than 1 player per day being bid on. You'd have to do pools, otherwise the draft, depending on number of GM's could take more than a year based on needing 24/24 players and a coach.

2. If you do say, 10 players at a time, you then run into an issue of keeping track of bids, which IMO, would have to be capped at an agreed upon number, per player, per round. What if the commish/or say a co-commish run into real life troubles and can't continue? Obviously delays would likely happen at some point over a few months.

3. Bidding would surely have to be private and as stated above, be capped at say 1 bi per player, per round. Though if it had a pool to pick from you could bid on X amount of players from that pool.

4. Timezones are definitely an issue in this format. I don't want to see any barred from joining but the bulk of the regular members are in the East-West coast tz's with a handful spread out from places in Europe, Asia, and South Korea.

I'm definitely game for trying it though.

At a really high level, I'd imagine something like this:
  • Assume 16 teams with 23 man rosters (so 368 player - let's keep it simple and ignore coaches for now)
  • In order to not unnecessarily limit people's choices, we'd have a pool of say 500 players
  • We'd put up say 10 players at a time (randomized order - TBD if the list is presented in advance, or if it's a surprise)
  • The list would be up for three days, everyone submits one ballot to the commissioner via private message
  • The draft would therefore run 500 / 10 * 3 = 150 days (5 months - probably too long?)
  • There would be a thread showing what every team has spent so far (ideally as close to real-time as possible)
  • Someone suggested (I don't remember who) that instead of a $10M salary cap, we set it to $81.5M (the actual cap) - just so that it's easier for people to figure out the values
  • TBD if trading is allowed (and if so - would the player's entire cost transfer to the team who they get traded to?)
  • TBD what happens if nobody "purchases" one of the players who comes up for bidding (do they get tacked on to a final round at the end? or are they passed over entirely?)
  • TBD if someone wants a specific player on their team who isn't part of the pool of 500 (maybe a first-come, first-serve thread after the draft concluded? there would have to be a certain minimum cost - maybe $750K, which is the current minimum wage in the NHL)
  • I would suggest no max salary (otherwise I'd imagine multiple people would bid 20% of the cap on Gretzky, and there's no way to determine who would get him)
 
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Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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Auction style would be a fun experiment. I think it’d be best to try it out as one of the “fun” drafts that we do after the main one like the OPPF or Redux drafts. You’d get fewer GMs so it would be easier to manage, take less time, and be a nice trial.

Because of time zones, bidding would have to be private. I know that’s not as fun because you can’t play that risky game of bidding up a player you don’t want, but I really don’t see any other way to make it fair. Otherwise those GMs whose schedules allow them to be available right at the bidding deadline will be at a large advantage.

Agree that doing multiple players in blocks would be best, one player per day would take too long.

I like the idea to use the current NHL cap, it would make it easier and more fun.

If a player doesn’t get bid on then he just gets included in the next day’s block of players and so on until he actually does get picked up.

There should be some way a GM can stipulate if I get player A I don’t want player B, for example if I win Gretzky then I don’t want Lemieux. This would be especially relevant for goalies.

Trading would have to be allowed just to help get people out of sticky situations, and I think you’d have to allow money to be included in trades as well.

I like the idea of being able to draft from the pool of players that don’t come up for bid for a pre-determined league minimum.

Idea to solve for ties in bidding: before the draft starts generate a randomly determined “draft order.” If two teams tie whichever team is higher in the order wins the tie, but then that team goes to the very bottom of the list for any future ties.

Agree on no max salary
 
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ResilientBeast

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I've done an auction style ATD for basketball once

Essentially every day you submitted a list with 5 players and your max bid for that player ranked in terms of who you wanted

1) Cyclone Taylor $80
2) Wayne Gretzky $5
Etc

And the admin would give you the highest player on your list that you weren't outbid for. That limits you to only getting one player a day to stop an accident where I accidentally bid the most for Taylor and Gretzky and thus screw myself.
 

ResilientBeast

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So we're sitting at 10 with 3 maybes

I'd like to get this show on the road by Feb so hopefully the maybes say yes and we manage to get 3 others to hit that 16
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Feb 23, 2010
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I'm against change for the sake of change. If you have a good idea to make this better, please share it.
Suggestions have been solicited. I wanted to think carefully about the matter- and share a couple of ideas from the half-dozen or more that I've got swirling around...

In some quarters, I've noted a certain (how do I say this?) insularity of perspective when it comes to team-construction. It's kind of Platonic (in the philosophical sense)- it's like there's a "form" for an ideal team, and the closest approximations to that optimal "form" will be the teams that have the best chance of making deep runs.

What's one way to mitigate insularity of perspective? Solicit more perspectives. That's why I liked @ImporterExporter 's roster of possible voters. In fact, I'd take it a step further. I'd say that ANYONE who's ever participated in a draft, even just one, should be permitted to vote. Furthermore, ANYONE who's ever contributed as a panelist in an H-o-H project, even just one, should be permitted to vote. Now, that broadly expands the potential voter-pool... and if we could get but 20% of the people actively solicited to make assessments, then the future health of this endeavor will be aided- all the moreso as these possible contributors would come the closest to being true neutrals.

One other thing I've observed when participating in a previous draft- there's an historically measurable advantage to selecting early, or towards the tail-end of the snake. Obviously, a top-4 draft position gives you one of The Big 4- and the back-end of the snake makes it less complicated for a participant to anticipate who'll be available on the come-backs. Therefore, I put out this suggestion in the pursuit of parity-

Participants select their draft-position, in "reverse-seniority" order. [Ties to be broken randomly.] Do we REALLY want to encourage new arrivals and previously occasional participants? If so, that should help.

I know that this suggestion runs counter to a previous agreement that frequent voters from the previous project were tipped to be allowed to pick their draft-slots. Perhaps there were people who voted as frequently as I did last draft. Nobody could have voted more than I did, though- I voted every match-up. I would happily yield my advantage to a newcomer, and take my place in the "reverse-seniority" line (if I actually decide to pursue this thing again).

 

ImporterExporter

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Jun 18, 2013
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Suggestions have been solicited. I wanted to think carefully about the matter- and share a couple of ideas from the half-dozen or more that I've got swirling around...

In some quarters, I've noted a certain (how do I say this?) insularity of perspective when it comes to team-construction. It's kind of Platonic (in the philosophical sense)- it's like there's a "form" for an ideal team, and the closest approximations to that optimal "form" will be the teams that have the best chance of making deep runs.

What's one way to mitigate insularity of perspective? Solicit more perspectives. That's why I liked @ImporterExporter 's roster of possible voters. In fact, I'd take it a step further. I'd say that ANYONE who's ever participated in a draft, even just one, should be permitted to vote. Furthermore, ANYONE who's ever contributed as a panelist in an H-o-H project, even just one, should be permitted to vote. Now, that broadly expands the potential voter-pool... and if we could get but 20% of the people actively solicited to make assessments, then the future health of this endeavor will be aided- all the moreso as these possible contributors would come the closest to being true neutrals.

One other thing I've observed when participating in a previous draft- there's an historically measurable advantage to selecting early, or towards the tail-end of the snake. Obviously, a top-4 draft position gives you one of The Big 4- and the back-end of the snake makes it less complicated for a participant to anticipate who'll be available on the come-backs. Therefore, I put out this suggestion in the pursuit of parity-

Participants select their draft-position, in "reverse-seniority" order. [Ties to be broken randomly.] Do we REALLY want to encourage new arrivals and previously occasional participants? If so, that should help.

I know that this suggestion runs counter to a previous agreement that frequent voters from the previous project were tipped to be allowed to pick their draft-slots. Perhaps there were people who voted as frequently as I did last draft. Nobody could have voted more than I did, though- I voted every match-up. I would happily yield my advantage to a newcomer, and take my place in the "reverse-seniority" line (if I actually decide to pursue this thing again).


We've really adopted a glue guy-facilitator-goal scorer style roster construction over the years. Gotta have a better than average #1D, goalies can largely be ignored based on meta, given the general relative nature of the draft sizes. With a smaller draft, that should increase the goalies value, but I'd wager the "standard" will remain the standard. I tried personally to shake myself out of that mentality last year with the unconventional approach to drafting D early and finding value at F, though the F group was still created in the usual mold by and large.

Obviously I'm not advocating we allow people to draft 12 C's and just play them wherever, as we've seen in Olympic/International hockey that doesn't always work well, but imagination is going to be valued just a touch more for me moving forward. Not enough to overcome a really well built roster or decisive advantage mind you, even in the general mold, but in a really tight match up? It may push the needle from one team to another.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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We've really adopted a glue guy-facilitator-goal scorer style roster construction over the years. Gotta have a better than average #1D, goalies can largely be ignored based on meta, given the general relative nature of the draft sizes. With a smaller draft, that should increase the goalies value, but I'd wager the "standard" will remain the standard. I tried personally to shake myself out of that mentality last year with the unconventional approach to drafting D early and finding value at F, though the F group was still created in the usual mold by and large.

Obviously I'm not advocating we allow people to draft 12 C's and just play them wherever, as we've seen in Olympic/International hockey that doesn't always work well, but imagination is going to be valued just a touch more for me moving forward. Not enough to overcome a really well built roster or decisive advantage mind you, even in the general mold, but in a really tight match up? It may push the needle from one team to another.

I agree this has been a trend, but Dreakmur won last year with Jacques Plante in front of his net and Doughty/Niedermayer as his #1D.
 
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ResilientBeast

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I can't believe I'm actually thinking about it

do-it-come-on.gif
 

ResilientBeast

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Here's another old post of mine about a potentially big change to the draft format:

Here's another radical idea. Instead of having fixed positions for selecting players, we can try an auction-style draft. (I say "we" loosely - I don't think I've actually participated in one of these since 2009).

Each team starts with a fixed budget - say $10M. The "league commissioner" can release, in advance, a master list of the top XX players, in order (perhaps based on the average draft spot over the past five drafts).

On the first day, the highest-ranked player (who I'm guessing would be Gretzky, but might be Orr) is eligible for every GM. During that 24 hour window, every GM can do an unlimited number of bids. No max or minimum (but perhaps have increments of say $1,000). The bids can either be public (posted in the main thread) or private (sent to whoever's running the draft).

At the end of the 24 hours, the winner is determined/announced. That GM gets that player, and has the winning bid removed from him hypothetical budget. Then we'd move on to the next player up for auction (Orr, etc) on the next day.

Personally I think this would be really exciting:
  • It's a new concept that hasn't been tried yet, which might make the draft seem less stale.
  • It mirrors reality since there's a financial constraint.
  • I think it would be fun/interesting to debate at the end of the draft - which players are the most over- and underpaid?
  • It also allows GMs to think about new strategies that we've never had to consider before - do you blow your budget and get three players in the top 20, then fill out your roster with scraps? Or do you quietly sit back and watch people pick superstars, and then compete on the strength of your depth?
But there are obvious logistical hurdles. Here are a few (you can tell me if you think these are bad enough to make this a deal-breaker):
  • If the bidding is public, I can easily see two (or more) GMs go back and forth in an endless cycle of trying to one-up each other, which clogs up the thread. Or if it the bidding is private, it would be challenging for the league commissioner to keep track of the dozens of messages he'd be getting every day.
  • Time zones could be problematic. I'd imagine that if we ended the bidding at midnight EST, a lot of bids would come in during those last few minutes. People in other parts of the world (or those who simply like to go to bed early) would be at a disadvantage. (Though perhaps we can change this by allowing people to bid only once - which doesn't eliminate the problem entirely, but it might reduce it).
  • The pace of the draft would be slow. If we're assuming 18 teams of 20 players, that's a full year. I doubt anybody here is willing to commit to that. (Or perhaps we allow people to bid on up to five players per day - then it would be two months for the draft - much more reasonable). On the other hand, every single day you potentially get to pick - so there's a reason to be involved every day of the draft.
  • What happens if a GM runs out of money? I don't know. Maybe we can designate a pool of low quality players that you'd have to use to fill out your roster if you spend all your money? (Not necessarily terrible players, but ones you'd never think about drafting in a ~400 player ATD - competent, serviceable NHLers like Garry Valk, Tom Fitzgerald). Though that still raises the question - how do they get picked if more than one GM runs out of money?
I know this is a crazy idea. But I think it has enough upside that it's at least worth considering.​

A solution I think @zffssk and I had discussed was (shudders at mentioning off site) but using discord for the bidding. There a bots that would help automate this process and allow for people to bid.

And then the results would be posted back here and so on we continue.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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*sigh*

I'll do it as long as we stay small. I don't think I have the energy for a 30 team draft or anything like that. My daughter has been sick as shit and keeping me up all night anyway so I may as well take advantage of my insomnia.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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*sigh*

I'll do it as long as we stay small. I don't think I have the energy for a 30 team draft or anything like that. My daughter has been sick as shit and keeping me up all night anyway so I may as well take advantage of my insomnia.

The like was for you joining, I hope everything works out okay.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,812
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The like was for you joining, my condolences and hope everything works out okay.
No I know what happened you're glad my daughter is sick you despicable ass.

But for real she's fine. Asthma that we're trying to get under control, but we aren't there yet and it's a process. Also she's turned into a total daddy's girl so mom can't pick up any slack because she only wants me. It's a blessing and a curse.
 
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Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,257
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Chicago, IL
One other thing I've observed when participating in a previous draft- there's an historically measurable advantage to selecting early, or towards the tail-end of the snake. Obviously, a top-4 draft position gives you one of The Big 4- and the back-end of the snake makes it less complicated for a participant to anticipate who'll be available on the come-backs. Therefore, I put out this suggestion in the pursuit of parity-

Participants select their draft-position, in "reverse-seniority" order. [Ties to be broken randomly.] Do we REALLY want to encourage new arrivals and previously occasional participants? If so, that should help.

I know that this suggestion runs counter to a previous agreement that frequent voters from the previous project were tipped to be allowed to pick their draft-slots. Perhaps there were people who voted as frequently as I did last draft. Nobody could have voted more than I did, though- I voted every match-up. I would happily yield my advantage to a newcomer, and take my place in the "reverse-seniority" line (if I actually decide to pursue this thing again).

A similar idea I'd be open to discussing would be to choose draft position in reverse order of how each GM finished in the previous year's ATD. So teams who didn't make the playoffs get first choice of draft position, then teams who were out in the first round, etc. with the previous year's Champion getting last choice.
First time GMs could be ahead of everyone.
For GMs that didn't participate the prior year but have participated in other years, we could just use their result from the last ATD they were in (with any ties in their favor, i.e. a 1st round exit 3 years ago chooses ahead of 1st round exit last year)
Co-GMs get placed basis the higher finish between the two

Seniority could be used as a tie-breaker.
 
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ResilientBeast

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I'm still actively pming former GMs

I assume we'd all like the clock to start running next week. So ideally by this weekend we should probably have an order and ironed out the rules.
 
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