ATD 2010, Part III

[BM67]

BM67's "vs. #2" numbers include a "H3" column which is the sum of a player's three highest years as percentages of the #2 scorer.

Actually the H3 shows the best 3 consecutive seasons.

 

[DoMakc]

Green Bay Gamblers select our PP QB Stefan Persson

 

[MadArcand]

In my opinion, too.

I even have him a notch higher than that, up there with Gardiner in the fringes of my top-100.

Yeah. Worters is a major steal in my opinion at this point. I have him around the 15th place among goalies.

 

[Dreakmur]

You should really clarify that it's 4 x NHL all-star game participant. 4 time NHL all-star is misleading.



I did not expect him to go too soon. I was looking at him too.

He was voted a WCHL first all-star 4 times, and he was voted an NHL first all-star 2 times. Those are not all-star games, they are post season all-star selections.

 

[Dreakmur]

In my opinion, too.

I even have him a notch higher than that, up there with Gardiner in the fringes of my top-100.

Like Tony Esposito, and to a lesser extent, Glenn Hall, play-off questions cause Roy Worters to drop. As I've seen posted before, there's a difference between where a guy ranks on an all-time list and his value to a team.

To me Glenn Hall is the #4 goalie of all time, but I'd take both Dryden and Sawchuk first because their play-off records are much stronger.

 

[jarek]

We're probably going to take a while with this selection. We've got several different ways to go with this pick.

 

[Dreakmur]

Hay is underrated. Learning last draft that he was a good backchecker was a major breakthrough. I am surprised that he went this high, but glad we had dreak freaked out enough to trade up

It's easy to brush off his numbers in the NHL, but his first three NHL years were the deadest of the dead puck eras, and as Dreak showed, he was a top-20 scorer, however much value you place on that.

Dreak, I gotta ask, where'd you get these consolidated figures from? I can see how in 1922 with the WCHL being one of three leagues his 4th is not a top-10, and I can see in 1923 how his 3rd in the WCHL becomes an 8th overall. And the 5th in 1926 becomes a 9th. And the 9th in 1925 falls off. But why does a 3rd in 1924 equate to a consolidated 3rd?

As you know, I did my own cosolidation study. I adjusted all the leagues to equalize more/less games played and also higher/lower goals per game.

In 1924, for whatever reason, the WCHL guys finished 1-2-3.

There are definitely mitigating circumstances surrounding Howe's all-star record, and Howe's true value is much more accurately reflected in his hart votes.

Fair enough. How do you compare Hart votes to All-Star votes?

Both Howe and Hay have a 4th in Hart voting, so you can toss that asside. That leaves you with:
Syd Howe - 3rd and 5th in Hart voting
George Hay - 4 WCHL all-stars ad 2 NHL all-stars

I'd definitely take Howe's 0-2-6-8-9, 0-2-5-7-8 in a later era with better competition and less uncertainty, than Hay's 0-1-2-4-7, 0-2-5-5-6. Without a doubt.

In the 340s though, Hay is a better value, and he's very underrated.

I looked at your playmaking consistency study, and said "hey, Howe and Hay are similar playmakers!!".... then I clicked on the same one again by mistake, and thought it was the goalscoring one, so I was very excited to (mistakenly) see Hay and Howe were equally similar as scorers

 

[papershoes]

Yeah. Worters is a major steal in my opinion at this point. I have him around the 15th place among goalies.

maybe its just me but, i honestly don't see why there is so much love for shrimp worters...

he won a hart and vezina but, was never a first-team all-star, was a 2nd team all-star twice. he had a very underwhelming playoff record. never led the league in wins or shutouts and, only once led the league in goals against average.

giacomin on the other hand, won a vezina, was a 1st team all-star twice, and a 2nd team all-star three times. led the league in wins and shutouts three times each. giacomin also has a very underwhelming playoff record.

what am i missing?

 

[Leafs Forever]

He was voted a WCHL first all-star 4 times, and he was voted an NHL first all-star 2 times. Those are not all-star games, they are post season all-star selections.

I was referring to the notes originally posted under Barclay Plager, which said "4 x NHL All-star", which has since been edited. Should have specified.

maybe its just me but, i honestly don't see why there is so much love for shrimp worters...

he won a hart and vezina but, was never a first-team all-star, was a 2nd team all-star twice. he had a very underwhelming playoff record. never led the league in wins or shutouts and, only once led the league in goals against average.

giacomin on the other hand, won a vezina, was a 1st team all-star twice, and a 2nd team all-star three times. led the league in wins and shutouts three times each. giacomin also has a very underwhelming playoff record.

what am i missing?

Well, keep in mind that he did play a number of years before AST's came around. He also didn't play for good teams to my knowledge (although I may be wrong on that), which would effect wins and shutouts.

 

[VanIslander]

thanls jareklajkosz for updating the pick and trades

sure is nice to put a hard day's work, go out drinking and playing poker with the guys then coming home to a straightforward easy processing task

 

[jarek]

thanls jareklajkosz for updating the pick and trades

sure is nice to put a hard day's work, go out drinking and playing poker with the guys then coming home to a straightforward easy processing task

No problem. I'll continue doing that for you. Helps out everyone else too, as seventieslord pointed out.

 

[VanIslander]

Love that George Hay is gettin' respect! I drafted him in ATD9 for my 3rd line and at the time it wasn't warmly received as he'd never made an ATD starting squad before. The WCHL All-Star Left Wing (1922, 1923, 1924), WHL All-Star Left Wing (1926), unofficial managers' NHL All-star (1927, 1928), HHOF inductee (1958) was a star with the right intangibles too.

When he retired from hockey in 1933, sports writer Sam Green wrote: "He ranked with the great forwards of the game, combining speed and poise, aggressiveness and finesse, with unsurpassed mechanical ability."

xxxxxx said there was never a better left winger than Hay at his best:

"I've seen a lot of good ones, but none who had more stuff than George. He was in a class with Aurial Joliat, Jack Walker, Bun Cook or Harvey Jackson. He could do everything, that fellow. Besides, he was one of the easiest players to handle I ever had -- always in condition, always on the job, always willing to play any position. He never got into any trouble on the ice and was rarely sent to the penalty box. We've often said in the dressing room that when Hay kicks against a decision, the referee should be run out of the league."

http://redwingslegends.blogspot.com/...eorge-hay.html