Around the NHL #14 - Offseason and junk

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Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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See NHL's rejection of Quebecors' expansion bid. It's not like Bettman absolute authority, but he also does have a large part in it.

Regardless, I wasn't talking expansion, but rather relocation of a team like Arizona, which again he absolutely does control to some extent.
The rejection of QC for expansion has been widely speculated it was for 2 reasons. 1) The Canadian dollar. 2) The NHL knows a team (or teams) will need to be relocated and there are not many cities with an ownership group and arena ready to go.

And no Bettman isn't a large part of it. The BoG is the large part of it. People still talk like Bettman hates Canadian teams, but the reality is he saved Canadian teams, without the way he has guided the NHL would only had 2 or 3 Canadian teams. I really think this perception that he doesn't want Canadian teams is skewed and inaccurate. Would he prefer a place like Houston, Seattle or Portland? Probably, but that's not because QC is Canadian, it's because it is a smaller market. The league will only really grow by breaking into the largest markets possible. Canadian teams, while they will get support, that fan base doesn't really have the potential to grow as much.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Jun 22, 2012
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See NHL's rejection of Quebecors' expansion bid. It's not like Bettman absolute authority, but he also does have a large part in it.

Regardless, I wasn't talking expansion, but rather relocation of a team like Arizona, which again he absolutely does control to some extent.

To be fair, Bettman is a process guy. You have to go through a process to get an NHL team (see Chipman vs Ballsille). The NHL makes potential owners get on their knees and kiss their shoes to make sure they don't get an Al Davis type.

From everything I heard, the expansion process was basically just Quebecs attempt to smooze the NHL. Now it's just a matter of relocating one of the Eastern teams there, and with Carolina, Florida and NYI struggling anything could happen.

Pretty sure Quebec City is next in line in terms of Eastern cities.
 

Volica

Papa Shango
May 15, 2012
21,440
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Quebec City will not have another NHL team. Place is full of old francophones that have cheered for the Habs for as long as they can remember. Basically Gary's nightmare.

Seattle is an awesome city, and a pretty decent sports town if the organization is run properly. There or Houston makes the most sense.

To be fair, it was a 15,000 person stadium, that had a near 15,000 person attendance. There was some absolutely crazy stuff between the Habs and Nordiques; along with Canada's landscape (with the separatism, etc) it made for an epic on ice.

It's really sad to actually read about the history of the Nordiques. It's literally just a huge list of contract disputes, ******** like the Lindros thing, the infamous Good Friday Massacre, and of course financial trouble.

Keep in mind, at one point of time, this team would have:
Joe Sakic
Owen Nolan
Mats Sundin
Mike Ricci

All 24 and younger. You don't have to wonder why the Avs had some major season :laugh:
 

MonyontheMoney

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Apr 5, 2015
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The rejection of QC for expansion has been widely speculated it was for 2 reasons. 1) The Canadian dollar. 2) The NHL knows a team (or teams) will need to be relocated and there are not many cities with an ownership group and arena ready to go.

Regardless of the reasons (all of which I was aware of), your comment about it not being up to Bettman in terms of expansion/relocation, though not completely wrong, was speaking in absolutes, which was. No one said Bettman holds absolute control of such decisions, but it's undeniable he's got a strong influence in such decisions.

The point of bringing up Quebec was simply to point out that the NHL had denied Quebecors' bid for expansion (again regardless of why). While Bettman would not have made this decision by himelf, he absolutely would have had some say.

And no Bettman isn't a large part of it. The BoG is the large part of it. People still talk like Bettman hates Canadian teams, but the reality is he saved Canadian teams, without the way he has guided the NHL would only had 2 or 3 Canadian teams. I really think this perception that he doesn't want Canadian teams is skewed and inaccurate. Would he prefer a place like Houston, Seattle or Portland? Probably, but that's not because QC is Canadian, it's because it is a smaller market. The league will only really grow by breaking into the largest markets possible. Canadian teams, while they will get support, that fan base doesn't really have the potential to grow as much.

And who largely makes up the Board of Governors? The owners. And who does Gary Bettman work for? The owners. There's a valid reason why the majority (if not all) publications that release "power rankings" of NHL related figures have Bettman at #1. He has influence in every decision the owners make.

I'm the furthest thing from a member of the "Bettman has an anti-Canadian agenda". It's simply not true. But Bettmans' job is to (1) make the NHL more profitable, and (2) to grow the game (which is largely because growth of the game will have a significantly positive impact on #1).

Beating the dead horses that are the Arizona Coyotes, Florida Panthers, and Carolina Hurricanes hasn't made the NHL more profitable, as a relocation likely would. The only argument to be made that an NHL team had influence in Arizona, is that hockey is probably gaining popularity there, but hasn't resulted in making the NHL more profitable.

Which is again, the point of my first post, that even a small Canadian market would be more profitable than a couple of the American teams. It's purpose was not to push the "Bettman has an anti-Canadian agenda" narrative.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Regardless of the reasons (all of which I was aware of), your comment about it not being up to Bettman in terms of expansion/relocation, though not completely wrong, was speaking in absolutes, which was. No one said Bettman holds absolute control of such decisions, but it's undeniable he's got a strong influence in such decisions.

The point of bringing up Quebec was simply to point out that the NHL had denied Quebecors' bid for expansion (again regardless of why). While Bettman would not have made this decision by himelf, he absolutely would have had some say.



And who largely makes up the Board of Governors? The owners. And who does Gary Bettman work for? The owners. There's a valid reason why the majority (if not all) publications that release "power rankings" of NHL related figures have Bettman at #1. He has influence in every decision the owners make.

I'm the furthest thing from a member of the "Bettman has an anti-Canadian agenda". It's simply not true. But Bettmans' job is to (1) make the NHL more profitable, and (2) to grow the game (which is largely because growth of the game will have a significantly positive impact on #1).

Beating the dead horses that are the Arizona Coyotes, Florida Panthers, and Carolina Hurricanes hasn't made the NHL more profitable, as a relocation likely would. The only argument to be made that an NHL team had influence in Arizona, is that hockey is probably gaining popularity there, but hasn't resulted in making the NHL more profitable.

Which is again, the point of my first post, that even a small Canadian market would be more profitable than a couple of the American teams. It's purpose was not to push the "Bettman has an anti-Canadian agenda" narrative.
When I talk of potential growth, I mean in dollars. They want another LA type situation, or but let's be honest the NHL has had issues being profitable in Ottawa, Buffalo and Columbus, they never reached the problems we've seen in Florida (who are actually profitable due to their arena deal), Arizona or Carolina and in all three of those situations the problems could easily be pointed to unstable ownership and poor arena locations (Raleigh is better than the other two but remember they didn't even start in Raleigh so in their first few years they didn't gain any fan support at all) As a fan do would you want to invest a bunch of time and money in an NHL team when the ownership is unstable?
 

MonyontheMoney

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Apr 5, 2015
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When I talk of potential growth, I mean in dollars. They want another LA type situation, or but let's be honest the NHL has had issues being profitable in Ottawa, Buffalo and Columbus, they never reached the problems we've seen in Florida (who are actually profitable due to their arena deal), Arizona or Carolina and in all three of those situations the problems could easily be pointed to unstable ownership and poor arena locations (Raleigh is better than the other two but remember they didn't even start in Raleigh so in their first few years they didn't gain any fan support at all) As a fan do would you want to invest a bunch of time and money in an NHL team when the ownership is unstable?

Ottawa is likely arena location as well, the others I can't speak to.

The thing is potential growth is nice, but if it never manifests it's completely inconsequential.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Ottawa is likely arena location as well, the others I can't speak to.

The thing is potential growth is nice, but if it never manifests it's completely inconsequential.
Sure, but if it works it's a massive payoff. A place like Houston is literally has more than 10x the population of Quebec City. Yeah on day 1 QC might be more profitable, but in 10 years? 15? I'd put my money on a place like Houston. The league wants the potential growth. and QC does not expand league viewership but much if anything. But a team in the Northwest, Kansas City or Houston, will expand viewership. Also QC likely wouldn't add any league revenue except a TV deal because their fans would be buying QC gear instead of whatever it was they were getting before. In those other cities you will be hitting more new fans, so you get the TV deal and merchandise sales from people that aren't current NHL fans. Simply put it's smart business by the NHL to do this. Yeah there will be some failures along the way, but they've had just as many successes.
 

MonyontheMoney

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Sure, but if it works it's a massive payoff. A place like Houston is literally has more than 10x the population of Quebec City. Yeah on day 1 QC might be more profitable, but in 10 years? 15? I'd put my money on a place like Houston. The league wants the potential growth. and QC does not expand league viewership but much if anything. But a team in the Northwest, Kansas City or Houston, will expand viewership. Also QC likely wouldn't add any league revenue except a TV deal because their fans would be buying QC gear instead of whatever it was they were getting before. In those other cities you will be hitting more new fans, so you get the TV deal and merchandise sales from people that aren't current NHL fans. Simply put it's smart business by the NHL to do this. Yeah there will be some failures along the way, but they've had just as many successes.

Sure, expanding/relocating to potential big markets to grow is smart business, but to continue to pile money and resources into current locations, when they've struggled for much, if not all of their existence is not.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Sure, expanding/relocating to potential big markets to grow is smart business, but to continue to pile money and resources into current locations, when they've struggled for much, if not all of their existence is not.
I don't disagree, but the NHL hasn't blocked any moves. They showed with Atlanta they will allow it if they have to. You can't really blame then for trying to make it work, look at how close the Penguins were to moving? A new owner and new arena fixed all those issues. I think Arizona with a new arena in a better location they would certainly be in much better shape. I think Carolina would be fine if their owner wasn't a ****ing nut bar and as I pointed out in Florida, the Panthers are actually profitable, it's just their attendance that is poor.
 

Mr Snrub

I like the way Snrub thinks!
Oct 12, 2016
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I don't disagree, but the NHL hasn't blocked any moves. They showed with Atlanta they will allow it if they have to. You can't really blame then for trying to make it work, look at how close the Penguins were to moving? A new owner and new arena fixed all those issues. I think Arizona with a new arena in a better location they would certainly be in much better shape. I think Carolina would be fine if their owner wasn't a ****ing nut bar and as I pointed out in Florida, the Panthers are actually profitable, it's just their attendance that is poor.

What I feel a lot of posters are missing (not just you) regarding the NHL in America is that the demographics and potential interest in hockey are significantly different in the American south than the north. The south is pretty much interested exclusively in football, baseball and basketball, and loathes the idea of hockey because it's a Canadian thing. They don't understand it and don't enjoy it on anything more than a level of novelty.

As you move further north in the U.S., the population significantly liberalises and is more open to hockey. Look at MLS for a comparison. It's a long-held belief that Americans would never embrace soccer, yet the MLS has expanded in the last ten years and teams like Seattle and Portland have won cups and draw huge crowds. The demographic in northern states is simply more willing to embrace and support a game that they don't know as much about, hence why Pittsburgh continued to be successful.

Compound this with the fact that the interest in and ability to play winter sports significantly increases the likelihood that hockey takes off and it's not hard to understand why teams in Atlanta or Arizona are going belly-up. Most of these regions don't have ice rinks and it might snow once every ten years. Kids aren't interested in hockey and don't play it, so it can't grow with the community.

More American teams can work, but the league should be focusing its efforts on Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, Hartford etc, not continuing to try to push it in markets where it will never really have long-term success.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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Not missing that at all. But when the difference between filling an arena in QC is getting 3-4% of the population to attend or getting less than 0.5% of the people in Houston, there is more room for growth.

I also addressed that when I said a new southern team brings in new hockey fans, where as a team like QC would just have fan switch allegiances.
 
May 27, 2012
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Florida isn't profitable. Their revenue was 100M last season, but there operating income was -15.4M. in 2015 they lost 20M.

The Owner is willing to take hits to make it work long term. Well, it was going smoothly until the changes to the team and injuries this season.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,248
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Florida isn't profitable. Their revenue was 100M last season, but there operating income was -15.4M. in 2015 they lost 20M.

The Owner is willing to take hits to make it work long term. Well, it was going smoothly until the changes to the team and injuries this season.
It all depends what numbers you look at. They get revenue that is not included in HRR from other events in the arena and that keeps hem in the black
 

FlamerForLife

Mon Seanahan
May 22, 2015
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While I never wish injuries on any player but that does help us if the Blues are gonna struggle even more.

I was thinking the same thing, obviously it sucks that he's hurt and I wish him a fully healthy recovery, but this does help our chances a bit in beating them out for a playoff spot.
 

MonyontheMoney

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Apr 5, 2015
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Kenny Agostino will right the ship that is the St. Loius Blues by himself and become the new Paul Byron.
 

FlamerForLife

Mon Seanahan
May 22, 2015
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Calgary
Good for Agostino, hope he stays in the NHL, really wish we had kept him, but glad to see him getting a chance in the NHL now.
 
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