Around the League Part 7: Hey Avs, Throw Us a Bone

[NotOpie]

I don't think it's out of bounds. A player, a prospect and a couple of picks could be totally different things with totally different value depending on the team. Many people are acting like that is some insane price without even knowing who the player and prospect is and where the pick is in the draft.

To be clear, the rumors were, "young, NHL LHD", a high-end prospect, and two 1st round picks. Now perhaps this wasn't the actual demand, but numerous folks reported this or similar to this as the ask from Sakic. To me, that's an excessive ask, almost meant to shut down discussion....but that's just one man's opinion.

 

[NotOpie]

Then he has to settle. I was just glad to see he was completely unaffected by all the negative talk about him. I really do think he'll get at least one really good piece back, maybe more. Everything thinks these things affect value, im not always convinced.

I think the point is that it is affecting value...it's affecting Duchene's value, it's affecting the value of any Av player that might be offered in trade, and it's affecting Sakic's reputation. He may not care, but it takes two to tango in the trade world and if other GMs don't think he's serious, or capable, or whatever, it will manifest itself in any trade process.

I don't disagree that he should ask for whatever he wants to ask for, but he has to live with the consequences, including how his team is perceiving the process.

Who give's a **** how fans of other teams look at it! But he should care about other GM's perceptions and what his team is going through.

 

[Ole Gil]

Then he has to settle. I was just glad to see he was completely unaffected by all the negative talk about him. I really do think he'll get at least one really good piece back, maybe more. Everything thinks these things affect value, im not always convinced.

I'm with you. Unless MD holds out, none of this is a particularly big deal yet. The source of the urgency to deal him seems to come from talking heads saying it's urgent he be dealt.

All this 'the longer it plays out' 'it's a big distraction' type talk is mostly nonsense. He's got two years left on his deal. This trade deadline, and next offseason, there are likely to be different teams interested with different assets. From the Avs perspective, all that matters is that they get the best return they can. I don't think they're worrying too much about competing any time soon, so patience just seems smart rather than making a desperation move, because everybody on the radio thinks you need to act now.

 

[bleedgreen]

Dreger said today that as many as 8 teams are still in contact with the Avs about this. People question the guy, but I believe he's as connected as anyone. I don't think Sakic's world is crumbling around him the way the media and hf thinks.

 

[GoldiFox]

I think Sakic will get a decent return. I don't think the Avs world is crumbling but I do think that just about everyone, including Duchene and Avs fans, wants to see some resolution. It wouldn't be terrible for Duchene to play with Colorado next year similar to Drouin with Tampa last year. Like Drouin, I also don't expect him to stick in Colorado past another year. If that is the case I think Avs fans want Sakic to say "Duchene is not moving" and rip the bandaid off to see if Duchene takes his ball and goes home. I think Duchene would stay and play no matter how bad it gets.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Sakic will get a decent return, but Duchene is on a ticking clock, and every GM knows it.

The talking heads think Sakic should trade Duchene because Sakic isn't going to get a better deal than what he now has on the table, so there's no point to holding on to a guy who doesn't want to be there and whose situation could become a distraction in the locker room.

As was said earlier, Sakic is gambling that some GM will crack and give him what he wants. If he succeeds, all will be forgiven, but if he fails, he will become even a larger laughing stock.

I'm with you. Unless MD holds out, none of this is a particularly big deal yet. The source of the urgency to deal him seems to come from talking heads saying it's urgent he be dealt.

All this 'the longer it plays out' 'it's a big distraction' type talk is mostly nonsense. He's got two years left on his deal. This trade deadline, and next offseason, there are likely to be different teams interested with different assets. From the Avs perspective, all that matters is that they get the best return they can. I don't think they're worrying too much about competing any time soon, so patience just seems smart rather than making a desperation move, because everybody on the radio thinks you need to act now.

Sakic wants an NHL roster player, and he has one year. Because one year from last July 1st, teams will suddenly find out whether or not Duchene is amenable to an extension, and the short list of teams willing to give up big for Duchene (vs. one year of Duchene) will shrink.

It wouldn't have been a desperation move if some of the reported proposals were true. Yeah, none of them were stuff that Sakic is an "idiot" for declining, but neither were they bad or even mediocre proposals. Sakic is just dead set on the young, LHD.

If the price comes down, Carolina can offer something around Fleury/Bean + Rask + pick, which is about as competitive as any offer out there imo.

 

[NotOpie]

After last night, I'm sure Sakic would ask for Derek Ryan.

 

[MinJaBen]

After last night, I'm sure Sakic would ask for Derek Ryan.

Cost per point...he killed Duchene last year.

 

[Vagrant]

The job of the GM is to make the best trade before the internal noise becomes external noise, because once the chatter becomes too loud to ignore and you have Bob MacKenzie and Darren Dreger of all people pleading your case to be traded, you've lost the battle of public perception and every team in the league knows that the move will have to be made. Duchene took the most professional route available to him PUBLICLY in terms of not being over the top with his trade demands at the deadline last season. Privately, he clearly tanked his play and cleaned his locker out. He checked out because he was disappointed he wasn't moved. To let that wound fester all Summer and have the kid show up to camp looking like a POW was a publicity nightmare. Perhaps Sakic wants everyone to know how tied his hands are so they don't crucify him for getting as much as he can, but his stubbornness is becoming a part of the story. It reminds me of those old men you see trying to sell their used cars without a dealer and putting Kelly Blue Book value on the windshield and refusing to budge an inch. Well, Kelly Blue Book doesn't buy cars and NHL GMs don't pay full value for a guy that would sooner **** on the logo in the dressing room than wear it again. You're starting to hurt your hockey club when you force them to answer questions for an all but absent Matt Duchene all day instead of talking about what they're doing to get ready for the season. The team needs stability. The player needs stability. What do?

 

[bleedgreen]

Trading Duchene for players that don't fit the mold of what the team is trying to be is far more damaging then the perception issues that have been created. He has only one Duchene. No one else he is going to move will bring back that kind of return. He can't sell low for any reason, let alone for the reason of "well everyone knows I want to trade him now, pooper scoopers". It's a crap situation for everyone, but caving because people think he's incompetent and the press is really mean isnt the answer. Duchene will have far worse perception issues if he doesn't show effort, he'll be tanking his own career. Not really an issue, suggesting he has character issues is comical. He's as hard working and team first a guy as you'd ever want.

Duchene will play hard and life will go on until the eventual resolution. I bet he gets traded during the preseason, but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't.

 

[bleedgreen]

http://bsndenver.com/bsn-exclusive-joe-sakic-on-a-painful-lesson-learned-and-the-path-to-redemption/

Worth a glance.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

To be clear, the rumors were, "young, NHL LHD", a high-end prospect, and two 1st round picks. Now perhaps this wasn't the actual demand, but numerous folks reported this or similar to this as the ask from Sakic. To me, that's an excessive ask, almost meant to shut down discussion....but that's just one man's opinion.

I've heard everything from a Legit young top pairing (potential) D, to a young defenseman, good prospect and a 1st. Neither of those seem too outrageous for a opening salvo to me, but I can see your point as well.

It wouldn't have been a desperation move if some of the reported proposals were true. Yeah, none of them were stuff that Sakic is an "idiot" for declining, but neither were they bad or even mediocre proposals. Sakic is just dead set on the young, LHD.

Yeah, That's the key point,if they were true. For instance, if MTL offered Beaulieu (young NHL defenseman), Hudon (good prospect) and a 1st (25th overall in a weak draft), yes, that would have met the general reported asking price, but would have been a bad return for Colorado IMO so it all depends what really was offered. I do agree though, Sakic is looking for a young LHD and is willing to wait it out. It's a gamble, but he feels it's worth it. He could be dead wrong in the end.

I agree with you though. I don't think none of the rumored offers I saw were stuff that screamed "Sakic was an idiot for declining", which was my point earlier. I think at this point, he's got Duchene under contract for 2 more years so he waits for the best offer like Wally and Bleed indicated.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Duchene will have far worse perception issues if he doesn't show effort, he'll be tanking his own career. Not really an issue, suggesting he has character issues is comical. He's as hard working and team first a guy as you'd ever want.

Duchene will play hard and life will go on until the eventual resolution.

These are interesting statements after a guy just quit on his team. But that was excusable, right?

 

[sheriff bart]

It wouldn't be such a big deal if Sakic hadn't parked him by the road with a "for sale" sign on him. He came right out and said McKinnon was going nowhere, but Duchene was on the market. It's bound to wear on a player after a while.

I don't blame Sakic for trying to get the best deal, but he's hurt his own bargaining power with how public he has made this. The option of just re-signing him is probably gone now, and other GMs know this.

 

[bleedgreen]

These are interesting statements after a guy just quit on his team. But that was excusable, right?

I also think the concept that he quit on his team is comical.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's human nature to stop working as hard when you know you have one foot out the door. That happens in ordinary jobs all the time, let alone one where you're being traded like a used car, and it's being done very very publicly.

 

[RodTheBawd]

http://bsndenver.com/bsn-exclusive-joe-sakic-on-a-painful-lesson-learned-and-the-path-to-redemption/

Worth a glance.

Disagree.

I also think the concept that he quit on his team is comical.

Disagree.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I tend to side with bleed on this as someone that follows the Avs incredibly closely as a second team. I hope the situation gets resolved relatively soon. However, I don't blame Sakic if he's not getting the deal he wants, and I don't blame Duchene for anything at this point, including all the people that think he's done as a player or quit on the team.

I know that's not a popular opinion on Sakic, and he's definitely made his share of mistakes as a gm, but I get what he's doing. I'll change my mind a bit if he settles for an awful return after all this though. Until then, I don't blame him for sticking to his guns.

 

[MinJaBen]

I tend to side with bleed on this as someone that follows the Avs incredibly closely as a second team. I hope the situation gets resolved relatively soon. However, I don't blame Sakic if he's not getting the deal he wants, and I don't blame Duchene for anything at this point, including all the people that think he's done as a player or quit on the team.

I know that's not a popular opinion on Sakic, and he's definitely made his share of mistakes as a gm, but I get what he's doing. I'll change my mind a bit if he settles for an awful return after all this though. Until then, I don't blame him for sticking to his guns.

I do blame Sakic because of the perceived ask. Granted, it is not crystal clear what the ask is exactly, but he is strongly rumored to be asking for a young top-4, a very high quality prospect, a 1st and maybe more. That is more than Duchene is worth right now. Market value is just not there. Would anyone feel ok with Francis putting it out there that he's looking to trade Faulk for Matthews or McDavid or Crosby? That would be a ridiculous ask in such a trade and would be rightly ridiculed...even if he "sticks to his guns."

Doubling down on stupid is not an admirable quality.

 

[DaveG]

I have no problem with him holding on his asking price. Not that he'll get it, but taking a less return because of public perception would be stupidity.

On the other hand, I do think he handled the situation poorly in the first place with how public he made things, or at least allowed them to get.

I look at it like the way Francis handled the Skinner talk a few years back, he just squashed everything that people were trying to make public. It honestly seems like Sakic didn't try that.

Now, all said, I think Sakic ends up getting Eric Staal'd on the return, where he trades a guy that at one point was a premier (borderline in Duchene's case) for a lower return at the deadline next year because he's not able to find someone that can handle the price (whereas with us is because we were still pushing for the playoffs).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I have no problem with him holding on his asking price. Not that he'll get it, but taking a less return because of public perception would be stupidity.

On the other hand, I do think he handled the situation poorly in the first place with how public he made things, or at least allowed them to get.

Yeah, that's kind of my view as well.

I look at it like the way Francis handled the Skinner talk a few years back, he just squashed everything that people were trying to make public. It honestly seems like Sakic didn't try that.

True. Something that I think is a little different though is that I personally don't think Francis was actually shopping Skinner (although we'll never know). I'm sure people were asking and he was listening to offers, as he would with anyone, but I don't think he was actually looking to move him where-as Sakic is looking to move Duchene.

Still, I don't think Sakic has handled the player dynamic part very well and am glad we have someone who is more measured like Francis at the helm.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

endless duchene discussion is endless

 

[A Star is Burns]

I do blame Sakic because of the perceived ask. Granted, it is not crystal clear what the ask is exactly, but he is strongly rumored to be asking for a young top-4, a very high quality prospect, a 1st and maybe more. That is more than Duchene is worth right now. Market value is just not there. Would anyone feel ok with Francis putting it out there that he's looking to trade Faulk for Matthews or McDavid or Crosby? That would be a ridiculous ask in such a trade and would be rightly ridiculed...even if he "sticks to his guns."

Doubling down on stupid is not an admirable quality.

I just don't take the rumors, even so called strong ones, as gospel. Obviously his asking price is higher than what teams are willing to give up. But I feel like it's just as likely that the insane asking prices leaking out are meeting the agenda of the teams that are leaking them, and the media that is leaking them. Perhaps he is asking for the moon, but I don't think the rumored prices prove it. Those teams have no reason to say anything other than the asking price is too high.

 

[Vagrant]

I also think the concept that he quit on his team is comical.

Have you seen his numbers from after the deadline? For as good as we all know Duchene to be, is there any excusing that? 16 games in March he scores 1 goal for 1 point and puts up a -16 rating. I know that players go through bad stretches, but you're of the opinion this is entirely coincidental as relative to the timing of the deadline? I don't think it's a forever indictment of his character to point out the obvious here.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

True. Something that I think is a little different though is that I personally don't think Francis was actually shopping Skinner (although we'll never know).

What difference does that make? I don't care if he got off a conference call with 12 other GM's that opened with, "Gentlemen, Duchene is on the table, bidding starts at 1st + blue chipper.", you look the reporter/interviewer in the eye and you lie through your teeth. "No, we are not shopping him."

Media coverage is now to the point if you don't say that, people will assume that you are shopping him. You see this in the main board threads, where the closest Sakic comes is implying that Duchene is not necessarily on the table. It's like when you ask somebody if they recommend a former employee for an open position, if you don't get a glowing review, that says a lot in and of itself.

You want to avoid turning this into a public spat so you don't ruin your relationship with a player in the off-chance no trade talk is successful, which looks like what has happened. I'd add also that you look like an idiot, but some Avs fans have told me that Sakic doesn't care if he looks like a moron to the media and chunks of the public, so if the fanbase doesn't care then IDK.

Have you seen his numbers from after the deadline? For as good as we all know Duchene to be, is there any excusing that? 16 games in March he scores 1 goal for 1 point and puts up a -16 rating. I know that players go through bad stretches, but you're of the opinion this is entirely coincidental as relative to the timing of the deadline? I don't think it's a forever indictment of his character to point out the obvious here.

The excuse I've seen is the unconditional surrender of the majority of the Avs around Christmas. Duchene took until the deadline to give up...which I guess is better?