GDT: Around the League | 22-23 III AND DOWN THE STRETCH THEY COME!!!

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I mean you're not wrong but we aren't that far removed from the MAF stabbing pic.

The Oilers are loyal to a fault. Too much dead weight on and off the ice that we keep around for... whatever reason.

I can agree with that. The owner all the way down to the coach have loyalty to a fault for sure.

 

[BlackDogg]

This must mean Toronto was really far away from contending.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

If there's one thing I like about Vegas its their cutthroat management. If you aren't good enough you're gone. Loyalty and such is for saps.

Vegas hit on all aces rolling out their expansion playbook. It has paid off short-term with a Cup win. As a global entertainment market with zero state tax and strong quality of life, Vegas is one of the blue blood premium landing spots for NHL talent. They can afford to be picky and likely always to be near front of the line for quality, replacement talent.

As a closed system business, the league has a growing issue of a more sophisticated, demanding and entitled workforce no longer being content just to play in the NHL. But demanding to play in cherry cities south of the border. No Canadian Cup winner since 1993 may be good for NHL business but it is not great for the league with the challenge to compete for talent. There's zero margin for error with Teams Canada.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Vegas hit on all aces rolling out their expansion playbook. It has paid off short-term with a Cup win. As a global entertainment market with zero state tax and strong quality of life, Vegas is one of the blue blood premium landing spots for NHL talent. They can afford to be picky and likely always to be near from of the line for quality, replacement talent.

As a closed system business, the league has a growing issue of a more sophisticated, demanding and entitled workforce no longer being content just to play in the NHL. But demanding to play in cherry cities south of the border. No Canadian Cup winner since 1993 may be good for NHL business but it is not great for the league with the challenge to compete for talent. There's zero margin for error with Teams Canada.

this is why I laugh at people who say "other teams should be as aggressive as Vegas!"

its not that easy

-big name UFAs want to play in Vegas
-big name players want to be traded to Vegas
-big name players re-sign in Vegas for cheaper than what they can get elsewhere, helping their cap

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

this is why I laugh at people who say "other teams should be as aggressive as Vegas!"

its not that easy

-big name UFAs want to play in Vegas
-big name players want to be traded to Vegas
-big name players re-sign in Vegas for cheaper than what they can get elsewhere, helping their cap

All of that is true. But teams are all billion dollar big businesses and should not scrimp within their hockey operations to hire top talent, invest in R & D including scouting and analytic support functions, and operate with the highest sophistication expected out of any large scale enterprise.

There's no safety net really other than the draft which is increasingly become the vehicle to attempt to build a winner. All with no guarantee it can succeed... especially with trending of young, organization drafted/developed elite talent pulling the pin on markets like Calgary and Winnipeg.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Vegas hit on all aces rolling out their expansion playbook. It has paid off short-term with a Cup win. As a global entertainment market with zero state tax and strong quality of life, Vegas is one of the blue blood premium landing spots for NHL talent. They can afford to be picky and likely always to be near front of the line for quality, replacement talent.

As a closed system business, the league has a growing issue of a more sophisticated, demanding and entitled workforce no longer being content just to play in the NHL. But demanding to play in cherry cities south of the border. No Canadian Cup winner since 1993 may be good for NHL business but it is not great for the league with the challenge to compete for talent. There's zero margin for error with Teams Canada.

I mean yes but look at some of the off-ice personnel we've had for years that still gets a joyride for no other reason than some misguided loyalty. There's certainly a danger to the "win at any cost" mentality but it's clear that the Oilers method of making friends along the way doesn't work either.

There's a lot of factors that go into why teams are attractive places to play. If you're a consistent success that will attract players who are willing to look past the weather and taxes and all that. Part of the reason players shunned us for so long was because we were a shoddy organization who prioritized hiring friends over competent people.

And of course none of that factors into one other important method of success: Drafting. Vegas doesn't have to worry about that because they can just trade all their picks and prospects away but a team like Edmonton needs some home grown talent in the mix. Our drafting has gotten better as of late but still no real hidden gems unearthed.

Think of it this way, Prior to this year we banked on Smith/Koskinen to lead us to the promised land for a few years and it never, ever worked. Obviously Koskinen's contract was immovable but Mike Smith should've been upgraded on. Same goes for the likes of Kris Russell. A decent player signed to a lengthy extension who probably should've been upgraded on. I get that these are decent guys and maybe even great in the locker room but the goal is to win, not make friends.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I mean yes but look at some of the off-ice personnel we've had for years that still gets a joyride for no other reason than some misguided loyalty. There's certainly a danger to the "win at any cost" mentality but it's clear that the Oilers method of making friends along the way doesn't work either.

There's a lot of factors that go into why teams are attractive places to play. If you're a consistent success that will attract players who are willing to look past the weather and taxes and all that. Part of the reason players shunned us for so long was because we were a shoddy organization who prioritized hiring friends over competent people.

And of course none of that factors into one other important method of success: Drafting. Vegas doesn't have to worry about that because they can just trade all their picks and prospects away but a team like Edmonton needs some home grown talent in the mix. Our drafting has gotten better as of late but still no real hidden gems unearthed.

Think of it this way, Prior to this year we banked on Smith/Koskinen to lead us to the promised land for a few years and it never, ever worked. Obviously Koskinen's contract was immovable but Mike Smith should've been upgraded on. Same goes for the likes of Kris Russell. A decent player signed to a lengthy extension who probably should've been upgraded on. I get that these are decent guys and maybe even great in the locker room but the goal is to win, not make friends.

Edmonton was once the plucky new kid that won a Cup early, upset people with an arrogant manager and cocky workforce of players. But it was a very different era where players were thrilled for the privilege to play in the NHL wherever that draft board landed. Player movement was significantly restricted and salaries stunted in large part thanks to a collusion between a corrupt Players Association Executive and NHL owner capitalists.

It's easy to pick apart the current era Oilers organization and compare them to the shiny new Cup champions. The Oilers became the poster boy for how to not rebuild a franchise. It/they/we lived through a decade of incompetent, rotating management groups, poor trades and drafting which made it a pariah for attracting quality free agents. However the Oilers have finally landed on stable management (not perfect management) that has slowly built up quality support around two super elites and inching this franchise to legitimately compete for deep Cap runs.

It was a razor's edge when Holland took over that frankly could have teetered either way with lesser hands. He's built the trust of its generational player McDavid and his running mate Draisaitl with a plan and vision to build around them. Loyalty is a major consideration for Holland and an attribute he's needed to earn and foster to try to scale the mountain. All of which may have kept the Oilers from the player driven exodus situations faced by Calgary and now Winnipeg. It's not pretty, a largely messy humungous job to undue a decade of incompetence. A reality far removed from a six year old franchise that has leveraged all advantages into a Cup win.

 

[McAsuno]

Crowd be like:

Embarrassing. If any Oiler player did this anywhere in Edmonton, the whole place would be in an uproar.
Hockey market my ass, Bettman.

 

[Oilhawks]

Couldn’t care less about the “Western Canadian connection” for the Golden Showers. Most of these guys would never play in Canada again and would rather play in a 0 tax pit of human despair that is Vegas. f*** ‘em

 

[CupofOil]

WTF??? 1260 is off the air for good??? I was just listening to it and had the announcement read below and now just music!
View attachment 717908

What the hell? That's completely out of the blue.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

WTF??? 1260 is off the air for good??? I was just listening to it and had the announcement read below and now just music!
View attachment 717908

Holy shit, this is awful. I remember Nielson saying on air a couple years ago 1260 had the largest listening base of TSN's radio networks. I feel for all those personalities and behind the scenes folks who made their radio shows so fun to listen to. Nielson has been breaking ground into CFL broadcasting so he should be okay that way but for the rest...very sad day.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Couldn’t care less about the “Western Canadian connection” for the Golden Showers. Most of these guys would never play in Canada again and would rather play in a 0 tax pit of human despair that is Vegas. f*** ‘em

This is in response to my post? Yeah I care about Western Canada connections. Care about the hockey legacy created here and the way of hockey coached and played here for decades. I care about Clare Drake devising specific forms of play followed by Arbour to Sutter to now. Its part of the connection to hockey, for me, the way that Western Canadian hockey is played and that it continues to be such a pipeline. Call me Don Cherry but I think too many teams went too far Euro. To the degree that I openly mocked clubs like NJ that are the polar opposite without hardly any Canadian players.

The Knights are the most Canadian team in the NHL. I like to see that, and that Canadian players continue to be part of these cup wins. Theres lots wrong with the NHL, with competitive balance, with where people choose to play, but its still Canadian kids chasing dreams and communities having followed those dreams. I don't lose sight of that.

That said I completely get your sentiment about the players, the adult people themselves. When do people get sordid? Been happening a longtime with NHL players. Unfortunately Gretzky was among those that led the way to just seeking out warmer and more fantastical climes in which to play the game. With Mess also seeking bright lights in NY.

The Shark jumped along time ago. It isn't the present players that jumped, happened decades ago and has just kept happening.

 

[Oilhawks]

This is in response to my post? Yeah I care about Western Canada connections. Care about the hockey legacy created here and the way of hockey coached and played here for decades. I care about Clare Drake devising specific forms of play followed by Arbour to Sutter to now. Its part of the connection to hockey, for me, the way that Western Canadian hockey is played and that it continues to be such a pipeline. Call me Don Cherry but I think too many teams went too far Euro. To the degree that I openly mocked clubs like NJ that are the polar opposite without hardly any Canadian players.

The Knights are the most Canadian team in the NHL. I like to see that, and that Canadian players continue to be part of these cup wins. Theres lots wrong with the NHL, with competitive balance, with where people choose to play, but its still Canadian kids chasing dreams and communities having followed those dreams. I don't lose sight of that.

That said I completely get your sentiment about the players, the adult people themselves. When do people get sordid? Been happening a longtime with NHL players. Unfortunately Gretzky was among those that led the way to just seeking out warmer and more fantastical climes in which to play the game. With Mess also seeking bright lights in NY.

The Shark jumped along time ago. It isn't the present players that jumped, happened decades ago and has just kept happening.

You aren’t the only one making the connections. My point is, most of these guys will never play in Canada again and aside from some paltry gesture of bringing the Cup to their home towns, it’s mostly a bunch of nothing. I don’t think it really contributes to a “legacy” of hockey in Western Canada when increasingly these same players could give a toss about hockey in Canada and are helping to promote young Canadian players seeking to play for non hockey market teams.

There has been less and less Canadian kids playing hockey and when they have no connections to a local team to cheer for it’s getting even worse. No one gives a shit about the Golden Knights in Vegas and hardly anyone does anywhere else. Some legacy

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

This is in response to my post? Yeah I care about Western Canada connections. Care about the hockey legacy created here and the way of hockey coached and played here for decades. I care about Clare Drake devising specific forms of play followed by Arbour to Sutter to now. It’s part of the connection to hockey, for me, the way that Western Canadian hockey is played and that it continues to be such a pipeline. Call me Don Cherry but I think too many teams went too far Euro. To the degree that I openly mocked clubs like NJ that are the polar opposite without hardly any Canadian players.

The Knights are the most Canadian team in the NHL. I like to see that, and that Canadian players continue to be part of these cup wins. Theres lots wrong with the NHL, with competitive balance, with where people choose to play, but its still Canadian kids chasing dreams and communities having followed those dreams. I don't lose sight of that.

That said I completely get your sentiment about the players, the adult people themselves. When do people get sordid? Been happening a longtime with NHL players. Unfortunately Gretzky was among those that led the way to just seeking out warmer and more fantastical climes in which to play the game. With Mess also seeking bright lights in NY.

The Shark jumped along time ago. It isn't the present players that jumped, happened decades ago and has just kept happening.

Canadian players flocking to the states is understandable but still some what of a slap in the face to Canada. We haven’t won the cup here in Canada in 30+ years… the place that pumps out all the worlds best hockey players. Meanwhile all the Canadian players flock to Vegas and win a cup with a team that has only existed 6 years. It’s only getting worse as more and more players just jump ship for sunny states that don’t truly give a shit.

With the tax breaks, warmer climates, fans who don’t really care, league favouritism, free agents demanding more if they sign here… how is a Canadian team supposed to win these days?

There’s always a chance McDrai will us to a cup obviously which might happen but the cards certainly seem stacked against them.

 

[PBandJ]

None of those guys give two shits about Canada. The only time they pretend to is every 4 years when they want a paid vacation to go get drunk in whatever city got suckered into hosting the Olympics.

The whole "well this team has x Canadian players" thing is bunk.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You aren’t the only one making the connections. My point is, most of these guys will never play in Canada again and aside from some paltry gesture of bringing the Cup to their home towns, it’s mostly a bunch of nothing. I don’t think it really contributes to a “legacy” of hockey in Western Canada when increasingly these same players could give a toss about hockey in Canada and are helping to promote young Canadian players seeking to play for non hockey market teams.

There has been less and less Canadian kids playing hockey and when they have no connections to a local team to cheer for it’s getting even worse. No one gives a shit about the Golden Knights in Vegas and hardly anyone does anywhere else. Some legacy

I understand your concerns. Really I do. But its the NHL at fault, and a league that puts no priority on Canada, or teams or players from Canada. Much of the media as well for decades I've seen idolize non Canadian talent. So its a rare time under McCrimmon that we see such a highlight put on Canadian and NA talent. I like the NA version of hockey and the way its played more. Success like this continues that blueprint. I think the scouting got too fixated on Euro talent for awhile. Particularly upstart Finland talent. Canadian players are still where its at and they showed that last night. Also outweighing Florida by 13lbs/player which I also like. I love size in the NHL.

Canadian players being less avowed to remaining in Canada is a much more complex problem and I'm not sure what solution there is because it flies into much more complex differences in nations, latitude as well as what people consider ideal in present day. The last place I would chose to raise a family is Vegas but thats me.

Maybe bringing the cup to Humboldt is a paltry gesture. How about the whole packed hall watching Whitecloud in the SC final. I think that was huge. We're urban so we don't get the same pulse to what hockey still means in small towns, rural areas. Almost all of these having signs of which NHL players have hailed from there. One of the great things is to travel the country by rail or auto and you see all that. You see those placards in a nation where hockey is part of the fabric.

Like I said in my post Canadiana can still be found and spotted, and when its there I don't mind looking at it. Gordon Lightfoot played at the end of it was a nice touch too. From a broadcaster that unfortunately has largely lost its way. Hearing that song again at signoff took me back to 1971 with the Habs beating Boston and Lightfoot being on the air all the time back then.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Canadian players flocking to the states is understandable but still some what of a slap in the face to Canada. We haven’t won the cup here in Canada in 30+ years… the place that pumps out all the worlds best hockey players. Meanwhile all the Canadian players flock to Vegas and win a cup with a team that has only existed 6 years. It’s only getting worse as more and more players just jump ship for sunny states that don’t truly give a shit.

With the tax breaks, warmer climates, fans who don’t really care, league favouritism, free agents demanding more if they sign here… how is a Canadian team supposed to win these days?

There’s always a chance McDrai will us to a cup obviously which might happen but the cards certainly seem stacked against them.

With all this stated Gretz went to LA in 1988 and Mess to NY in early 90's. All of what people are complaining about happened and became the standard over 3oyrs ago. Many of you weren't even born then. This has been the status quo for a long time but you follow the NHL.

For me the NHL is a bad habit. As for most longtimers I of course got hooked by the WHA first Edmonton pro hockey team and then the Oilers NHL success and 5 cups. But for younger fans the NHL, and where players choose to play has been firmament since you started watching.

 

[mooseman7]

His surgeon.

Gary "THE CAP CICUMVETING ENABLER " BETTMAN

 

[Drivesaitl]

None of those guys give two shits about Canada. The only time they pretend to is every 4 years when they want a paid vacation to go get drunk in whatever city got suckered into hosting the Olympics.

The whole "well this team has x Canadian players" thing is bunk.

The moment we don't care about Canadians we don't care about Canada. looks like we're at that moment. Myself my identification geographically is Alberta, Prairies, Canada, in that order. In 1967 Canada would have been the primary. its changed a lot. We're a country struggling with tons, and even with concept of identity. Its too bad.

I don't think you're wrong though, but this is not a new thing. Players have been mercenary free agents for a long time. Not just in hockey. In Baseball CRA is trying to claw back evaded taxes for players on the Bluejays.

Another point is that celeb culture sucks. As soon as people are on a pedestal theres a disconnect. Fame and success corrupts. None of us can say for sure we would be different.

 

[mooseman7]

Gary "THE CAP CICUMVENTING ENABLER " BETTMAN

 

[Oilhawks]

I understand your concerns. Really I do. But its the NHL at fault, and a league that puts no priority on Canada, or teams or players from Canada. Much of the media as well for decades I've seen idolize non Canadian talent. So its a rare time under McCrimmon that we see such a highlight put on Canadian and NA talent. I like the NA version of hockey and the way its played more. Success like this continues that blueprint. I think the scouting got too fixated on Euro talent for awhile. Particularly upstart Finland talent. Canadian players are still where its at and they showed that last night. Also outweighing Florida by 13lbs/player which I also like. I love size in the NHL.

Canadian players being less avowed to remaining in Canada is a much more complex problem and I'm not sure what solution there is because it flies into much more complex differences in nations, latitude as well as what people consider ideal in present day. The last place I would chose to raise a family is Vegas but thats me.

Maybe bringing the cup to Humboldt is a paltry gesture. How about the whole packed hall watching Whitecloud in the SC final. I think that was huge. We're urban so we don't get the same pulse to what hockey still means in small towns, rural areas. Almost all of these having signs of which NHL players have hailed from there. One of the great things is to travel the country by rail or auto and you see all that. You see those placards in a nation where hockey is part of the fabric.

Like I said in my post Canadiana can still be found and spotted, and when its there I don't mind looking at it. Gordon Lightfoot played at the end of it was a nice touch too. From a broadcaster that unfortunately has largely lost its way. Hearing that song again at signoff took me back to 1971 with the Habs beating Boston and Lightfoot being on the air all the time back then.

I'm a bit reluctant to sing the praises of a GM who has had a blank slate handed to him, a no tax attractive market to bring players to and on top of that, slimy and shady practices with management of players. The NHL (Gary) could give a toss where the players are from, they just want the teams that will "grow the game" to win. The media might go on about players from outside of Canada but one of the last things I care about is the meta narrative of media pundits.

I suppose it's nice that the small towns are some of the biggest supporters of these non Canadian teams and they get to watch "their team" win. I've certainly noticed that they have a lot of out of market fans (in some cases, maybe even more than in market fans) when I talk to the fans wearing jerseys from said teams at Oilers games or around the city. I'm sure many are fans of these teams because they are cheering for a player that is from their home town. The fact is, these small towns can all produce top end talent or even plenty of journeymen, sure. But the longer we go without Canadian teams winning, the more apathy will be setting in in urban populations and less kids will be interested in going in to hockey. The sheer volume of kids they can recruit from urban areas will be missed and hockey will continue to decline in Canada. Gary wins.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Haha. My solution. We go back to the territorial rights informal solution wherein Montreal had Quebec players and other clubs got regional rights. Compensations if not adhered to. Oilers get Alberta and Sask player rights just because I said so...

Nobody would agree to it. Just saying it for levity.

Maybe Canada will look better as a destination in time. Y'all can hope.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

With all this stated Gretz went to LA in 1988 and Mess to NY in early 90's. All of what people are complaining about happened and became the standard over 3oyrs ago. Many of you weren't even born then. This has been the status quo for a long time but you follow the NHL.

For me the NHL is a bad habit. As for most longtimers I of course got hooked by the WHA first Edmonton pro hockey team and then the Oilers NHL success and 5 cups. But for younger fans the NHL, and where players choose to play has been firmament since you started watching.

I’m not saying it’s a new thing. I’m saying it’s getting worse.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm a bit reluctant to sing the praises of a GM who has had a blank slate handed to him, a no tax attractive market to bring players to and on top of that, slimy and shady practices with management of players. The NHL (Gary) could give a toss where the players are from, they just want the teams that will "grow the game" to win. The media might go on about players from outside of Canada but one of the last things I care about is the meta narrative of media pundits.

I suppose it's nice that the small towns are some of the biggest supporters of these non Canadian teams and they get to watch "their team" win. I've certainly noticed that they have a lot of out of market fans (in some cases, maybe even more than in market fans) when I talk to the fans wearing jerseys from said teams at Oilers games or around the city. I'm sure many are fans of these teams because they are cheering for a player that is from their home town. The fact is, these small towns can all produce top end talent or even plenty of journeymen, sure. But the longer we go without Canadian teams winning, the more apathy will be setting in in urban populations and less kids will be interested in going in to hockey. The sheer volume of kids they can recruit from urban areas will be missed and hockey will continue to decline in Canada. Gary wins.

Believe me I've stated all of these concerns in time. They are real. Hockey enrollment in Canada is declining. For a number of reasons.

My first disconnect was hearing Mess talk about watching games on TV as a kid. Watching the Canadian stars playing in Canadian cities. He described it as a former generation of players inspiring new Canadian players. The same player that said all this jumped the shark for ego specific reasons. Sigh. I get it.

I’m not saying it’s a new thing. I’m saying it’s getting worse.

Yes.

i did want to punch Petro in the face when he was given the Canadian question and says "it doesn't matter where you come from" if he came from Texas would he be stating that? Seems like we've lost our identity or care about it. Goes farther than hockey, its the concept of Canada. The lack of allegiance to place being a symptom.

 

[Oilhawks]

Believe me I've stated all of these concerns in time. They are real. Hockey enrollment in Canada is declining. For a number of reasons.

My first disconnect was hearing Mess talk about watching games on TV as a kid. Watching the Canadian stars playing in Canadian cities. He described it as a former generation of players inspiring new Canadian players. The same player that said all this jumped the shark for ego specific reasons. Sigh. I get it.


Yes.

Yeah, that's a big part of why I can't get too excited about a non hockey market team winning. This is pretty much the opposite of "growing the game", at least when it comes to future talent.