Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: I can't believe it's not butter, I can't believe we didn't get Ryan Hartman.

[Mr Snrub]

Should be annoyed with the first pick too

Who would you have preferred we picked? Dal Colle? Virtanen?

 

[DFF]

Who would you have preferred we picked? Dal Colle? Virtanen?

Nylander, ehlers

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Should be annoyed with the first pick too

The first pick, at the time, was great. I don't know of a single person, Flames fan or otherwise, who didn't think Bennett had a good chance of being the best player in the draft. I'm unhappy that he failed to pan out, but c'est la vie. I mean, the next guy who was theoretically in line was Dal Colle or Ritchie, and they sure aren't blowing any minds.

The only person I'm aware of who really boosted Nylander and Ehlers as top 5 worthy picks that year was Pronman, so they were far from consensus choices.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Nylander, ehlers

Complete and total revisionist history.

Bennett was the clear BPA, and had scouts that voted him as 1st overall potential.

 

[Mr Snrub]

Complete and total revisionist history.

Bennett was the clear BPA, and had scouts that voted him as 1st overall potential.

Future Considerations had him listed as the best North American skater. Half of this board would've taken him over Draisaitl at 3rd OA. The idea that by 2018 his absolute ceiling would be a 50-point winger seemed laughable.

 

[CamPopplestone]

I liked Drai better but was a coin flip for me and Bennett tbh. I just thought it eould have been really cool to have that German superstar. I always thought Drai had skating issues but if he could sort them out he'd be better than Bennett, but Bennett was a safer pick.

 

[Dack]

This logic is so backwards, why would you still have hope for the most ready guy but the guys who were supposed to be long term projects are being written off?

Because the others aren't having success in the ECHL and/or are healthy scratches in the AHL.

 

[Dack]

Back in 2014 I had it like

1. Ekblad
2. Reinhart
3. Bennett
4. Draisaitl

Full disclosure for whatever reason back then I thought Canadian Kid > Euro because Toews wins cups and what not.

 

[Janks]

Back in 2014 I had it like

1. Ekblad
2. Reinhart
3. Bennett
4. Draisaitl

Full disclosure for whatever reason back then I thought Canadian Kid > Euro because Toews wins cups and what not.

I think most people had that as well. I also think that if Drai wasn’t playing with McD his points would be pretty severely impacted and closer to Bennett’s totals (driving his own line).

 

[Dack]

I think most people had that as well. I also think that if Drai wasn’t playing with McD his points would be pretty severely impacted and closer to Bennett’s totals (driving his own line).

I don't think they would be that bad. Definitely not as good as with Mcdavid but I think he's still a 55-65 point player.

 

[Janks]

I don't think they would be that bad. Definitely not as good as with Mcdavid but I think he's still a 55-65 point player.

Playing with Bennett’s linemates? Probably not. If he had quality line mates, I agree.

 

[Dack]

Playing with Bennett’s linemates? Probably not. If he had quality line mates, I agree.

Oh yeah not with Bennett's linemates but I still think he could put up 45-50 with Bennett's linemates.

 

[DFF]

Complete and total revisionist history.

Bennett was the clear BPA, and had scouts that voted him as 1st overall potential.

Not debating the pick at the time
But he is now a big disappointment. That's all I am saying
A f***ed up pick is a f***ed up pick whether it was consensus or not

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Playing with Bennett’s linemates? Probably not. If he had quality line mates, I agree.

With Carroll it's seemed to work out fine considering he's playing pro hockey. You find a lot of those guys in later rounds anyways, playing on the edge is how they get to the next level. I don't know that you can chalk it up to a Burke pick when guys who rack up PIMs are kind of the norm for picks in that part of the draft. And AOM doesn't strike me as a Burke pick at all, just a questionable one.

I'm glad we have AOM for personal related reasons haha.

 

[Janks]

Not debating the pick at the time
But he is now a big disappointment. That's all I am saying
A ****ed up pick is a ****ed up pick whether it was consensus or not

So all the teams who passed on Datsyuk had shit picks? What a total crock.

 

[The Gnome]

I still think if you simply get Bennett away from GG you'll see another gear. I know others have had career years under GG, I just don't think he's the right coach for a guy like Bennett.

 

[DFF]

So all the teams who passed on Datsyuk had **** picks? What a total crock.

Huh? So answer this question then, is Bennett a good pick? Simple Yes or No

Not sure one jumps from what I said to team passing Datsyuk

 

[Janks]

Huh? So answer this question then, is Bennett a good pick? Simple Yes or No

Not sure one jumps from what I said to team passing Datsyuk

Based on the information at the time, yes. I also think Bennett will turn it around and become a solid NHLer still (50-60 points a season).

Looking back at the picks made 3 years later, sure you can cherry pick players that exceeded where they were drafted. But regardless, he’s not a bust. He’s f***ing 21 years old, give it time.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I still think if you simply get Bennett away from GG you'll see another gear. I know others have had career years under GG, I just don't think he's the right coach for a guy like Bennett.

I was debating this with a few posters on Discord a couple of months ago, what players have had elevated their level of play under Gully?

Gaudreau - doesn’t need a coach, let’s be honest.

Monahan - probably the best example of progression, defence is a massive improvement. Offensive totals are slightly better than they were under the Hartley era.

Ferland - Had an amazing first half, has been his typical inconsistent self since. Par for the course IMO.

Backlund/Frolik - Do not think Gully has had major of an impact. Yes these guys are great, but they’re also very easy to coach. They have played to expectations, but not elevated.

Tkachuk - has had terrific year, on the verge of becoming a star. Gully should receive credit, but I also think Tkachuk is a special player all on his own and could play well under almost any coach.

Bennett - has essentially been a bust. Played better as a rookie.

Janks - has not done anything special.

Brouwer - been a total bust. I largely blame the coach for his poor usage.

Rest of bottom 6 - very, very poor results.

Dougie/Gio - elite pairing, but neither guy has really improved or regressed. Perhaps Dougie has elevated, but at his age you would expect some progression.

Brodie - much worse, has regressed IMO.

Hamonic - has been up and down. He was more effective for the Isles.

Stone/Kulak/Bart - decent to bad.

All in all, I think Monahan, Tkachuk and Dougie have elevated their level of play, but I’m not sure you can credit the coach more than you can their normal developmental curve. I think Monahan is truly the only one who has really gone to another level under Gully. Tkachuk has for sure, but I feel like he would be developing into what we are seeing regardless who the coach is.

For me, a coach getting the most out of his players is the biggest measuring stick as to how good he is. I just haven’t the seen progression we expected in many players and instead we have actually seen more regression overall in the roster.

 

[Fig]

Back in 2014 I had it like

1. Ekblad
2. Reinhart
3. Bennett
4. Draisaitl

Full disclosure for whatever reason back then I thought Canadian Kid > Euro because Toews wins cups and what not.

That top 4 was locked up IIRC. IIRC the order was contested, but those 4 guys were not. IIRC, quite a few teams were looking to trade up into that top 4, but the prices didn't make sense for any of them.

Personally, I liked Drai over Sam at the time. But I also though Dal Colle looked good too, so what do I know? I think if Bennett didn't have a bum shoulder he'd be an Oiler by now. Whoever they took at 3OA, MacT was penciling him in at 2C. We know how that worked out for Draisaitl his is draft season. I think the Oilers got lucky and took Draisaitl because he was the last healthy option of the 4.

 

[Fig]

I was debating this with a few posters on Discord a couple of months ago, what players have had elevated their level of play under Gully?

Gaudreau - doesn’t need a coach, let’s be honest.

Monahan - probably the best example of progression, defence is a massive improvement. Offensive totals are slightly better than they were under the Hartley era.

Ferland - Had an amazing first half, has been his typical inconsistent self since. Par for the course IMO.

Backlund/Frolik - Do not think Gully has had major of an impact. Yes these guys are great, but they’re also very easy to coach. They have played to expectations, but not elevated.

Tkachuk - has had terrific year, on the verge of becoming a star. Gully should receive credit, but I also think Tkachuk is a special player all on his own and could play well under almost any coach.

Bennett - has essentially been a bust. Played better as a rookie.

Janks - has not done anything special.

Brouwer - been a total bust. I largely blame the coach for his poor usage.

Rest of bottom 6 - very, very poor results.

Dougie/Gio - elite pairing, but neither guy has really improved or regressed. Perhaps Dougie has elevated, but at his age you would expect some progression.

Brodie - much worse, has regressed IMO.

Hamonic - has been up and down. He was more effective for the Isles.

Stone/Kulak/Bart - decent to bad.

All in all, I think Monahan, Tkachuk and Dougie have elevated their level of play, but I’m not sure you can credit the coach more than you can their normal developmental curve. I think Monahan is truly the only one who has really gone to another level under Gully. Tkachuk has for sure, but I feel like he would be developing into what we are seeing regardless who the coach is.

For me, a coach getting the most out of his players is the biggest measuring stick as to how good he is. I just haven’t the seen progression we expected in many players and instead we have actually seen more regression overall in the roster.

Oddly enough, when I first saw Gully's system and style, I thought he was the best option to mentor kids and develop them. Instead of that, we see the veterans pulling away from the kids and the bottom 6 stagnating/regressing. TBH I think the ones that have benefited the most are those with durability issues. Monahan had many miscellaneous ailments while playing under Hartley, but much less under Gully. Backlund as well.

Most of the guys that regressed the most IMO were the ones that relied heavily on crash and banging. Gully's style really disallows for this type of game. Unfortunately, it looks like our bottom 6 is full of guys like that. We need someone who can utilize them both. Yes, the healthy aspect of Gully's style is great, but playing safe isn't going to win a cup. I honestly think the roster will suddenly surge and lurch forward when a new coach is hired. Not because Gully is a totally bad coach, no. But because his system has too steep a learning curve and is bleeding edge new. IMO the truth is somewhere in between Gully's and Hartley's style. Hartley's to Gully's style is a crazy jump. We're talking balls to the wall, rush styled brute force vs smart strategic cycle styled game. That being said, if our core is educated in both cycle and rush style, I feel like our players will be more rounded and less one dimensional. A coach who allows them to play to their strength while also heavily reminding them to not allow another team to take advantage of their weakness (thus working on those weaknesses) is a guy we need.

I think Gully will exceptionally well with a cycle trained crew like Vancouver. However, he is the completely wrong guy for this core and supporting cast. I think Sutter or Tippet could easily bring more out of this group than Gully, again, not because Gully is a bad coach, but because there is a serious difference in style mismatch. Tippett and Sutter are far more familiar with a rush styled game (even if it's stifling defensively). Gully isn't some goof with an idiotic game plan. His game plan is pretty good. But sometimes I feel like he's like an engineer trying to teach lawyers fluid dynamics and getting frustrated they're not picking it up as fast as he hoped.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I still think if you simply get Bennett away from GG you'll see another gear. I know others have had career years under GG, I just don't think he's the right coach for a guy like Bennett.

I disagree; I don't think we can blame coaches for him having his head up his ass in the offensive zone all the time.

@Fig: In regard to Bennett, at least, playing off the rush is his weakest offensive point. At least sometimes this season he's looked good cycling (with Janko and Jagr); on the rush his feet are moving too fast for his brain and he ends up making a failed pass or failed toe drag (or if he decides to switch it up he might just skate right past the net). *Caveat: obviously he makes a nice play sometimes, but the majority of the time he needs a huge amount of space to do it - more than you're normally going to get on NHL ice.

As with any Flames player I'd love for him to prove me wrong, but Bennett has a lot of the same issues now that he did as a rookie. That's not a coaching issue, in my opinion.

 

[herashak]

The worst part of the 2014 draft to me was having 2 2nd round picks and picking 2 ECHLers when a kid out of our own city (point) who had torn up every league he was a part of slipped past. I would be demoting every scout that was a part of that choice.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

The worst part of the 2014 draft to me was having 2 2nd round picks and picking 2 ECHLers when a kid out of our own city (point) who had torn up every league he was a part of slipped past. I would be demoting every scout that was a part of that choice.

All 30 teams made that decision - he would probably have been picked top 10-15 in hindsight, which is REALLY easy to do.

Last thing you want to do is pick the hometown sweetheart - that's how you end up with the Brent Krahns of the draft.

 

[herashak]

All 30 teams made that decision - he would probably have been picked top 10-15 in hindsight, which is REALLY easy to do.

Last thing you want to do is pick the hometown sweetheart - that's how you end up with the Brent Krahns of the draft.

I saw him being a steal on draft day so that’s why it hurts me even more lol