Are we being too hard on Maurice?

ecolad

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I am pretty sure that Maurice had Perreault and Armia penciled into 3rd line roles going into the season, and then Copp-Lowry-Tanev happened. Their play has been instrumental to the team's success, so it's understandable that he's going with them for now, especially since the top two lines haven't been great defensively. Consider this... on average the Lowry line is giving up 1 even-strength goal against every 11 games played (based on GA/60 and ice-time at even strength). Their GF rate is 3x higher than their GA rate. That is simply outstanding, especially considering that they get a lot of hard match-ups and D zone starts.

I think Maurice could and should pare back on the ice-time for the #1 line, and find a better C for Perreault and Armia so that they can play more of a 3a / 3b sort of role.

The bolded pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly. A 1-2-3A-3B structure seems to jibe almost perfectly with the roster talent that Chevy has currently assembled . I am one who would ultimately like to see a balanced top 9, with a strong 4th that can match and even outscore, but I think this will evolve over the next year or two as we see what we truly have for both 3rd and 4th line C positions.

Having a very solid 3A line with a heavy bias to defensive hockey (CLT), together with a 3B that more typically is biased towards outscoring(P"X" A) would allow the coaching staff to plan hard line matchups, both home and away, and then actively adjust in-game depending upon the game situation/individual line performance that game/ etc). This type of active in-game management is something that we have not seen much of to date.
 

pucka lucka

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How can you be so confidently sure? Because that would require Mo to be smarter than you give him credit for?
So you think Maurice is capable of keeping someone from getting injured? Corey Perry won't slash him because he's on the 4th line? If PoMo is doing this he shouldn't be coaching peewee never mind an NHL team.
 

Adam da bomb

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So you think Maurice is capable of keeping someone from getting injured? Corey Perry won't slash him because he's on the 4th line? If PoMo is doing this he shouldn't be coaching peewee never mind an NHL team.
I might be wrong, but other people on the After Canuck game thread had the same idea. So, I don't know maybe you are just smarter than all of us, with your no way in hell, refusal to even consider the idea. On another note I wish I had the complete confidence in my opinions that you seem to have. Even when I am right, I still feel some insecurity about my opinions and wouldn't be able to tell someone with opposing ideas that their ideas are garbage/ boneheaded/completely wrong.
 
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pucka lucka

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I might be wrong, but other people on the After Canuck game thread had the same idea. So, I don't know maybe you are just smarter than all of us, with your no way in hell, refusal to even consider the idea. On another note I wish I had the complete confidence in my opinions that you seem to have. Even when I am right, I still feel some insecurity about my opinions and wouldn't be able to tell someone with opposing ideas that their ideas are garbage/ boneheaded/completely wrong.
Really, are we in junior high? Think about what you are saying. Jesus.
 

10Ducky10

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I would tend to agree.
If you think a player isnt being played more minutes because the coach thinks he might get injured I don't know what to say.
 
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Puckatron 3000

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I don't know Maurice's reasons for playing Perreault on the 4th line. But it seems irrefutable to me that playing less ice time reduces a player's chance of injury. So, regardless of Maurice's intentions, minimizing Perreault's chance of injury is one advantage that should be recognized when evaluating Perreault's ice time and usage. Perreault is one of my favorite players, but he certainly does have a history of being injured a lot.

Perreault is the kind of player we'll want healthy for a playoff run, should be reach the playoffs this year.

There's also plenty of good reasons to argue Perreault should be getting more 5v5 ice time.
 

Sabadecade

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If someone believes Perreault lifts pretty much anyone he plays with will add even more lift players if he gets more ice time with better players, I don't know why the same person would disagree with the premise that injury potential also increases with additional ice time.
 

Howard Chuck

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Completely off topic, but every time I catch this thread title out of the corner of my eye, I think I read George Carlin's dirtiest words evers said on TV, from leave it to beaver.
 

pucka lucka

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I don't know Maurice's reasons for playing Perreault on the 4th line. But it seems irrefutable to me that playing less ice time reduces a player's chance of injury. So, regardless of Maurice's intentions, minimizing Perreault's chance of injury is one advantage that should be recognized when evaluating Perreault's ice time and usage. Perreault is one of my favorite players, but he certainly does have a history of being injured a lot.

Perreault is the kind of player we'll want healthy for a playoff run, should be reach the playoffs this year.

There's also plenty of good reasons to argue Perreault should be getting more 5v5 ice time.


I could make some very plausible arguments why it isn't true. Probabilities and causalities are not something the human brain can do via basic thought experiments. Maybe sitting on the bench for long periods make a player more prone to injury because of all the stops and cold starts. Irrefutable? Yeah, don't think so.
 

Whileee

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I don't know Maurice's reasons for playing Perreault on the 4th line. But it seems irrefutable to me that playing less ice time reduces a player's chance of injury. So, regardless of Maurice's intentions, minimizing Perreault's chance of injury is one advantage that should be recognized when evaluating Perreault's ice time and usage. Perreault is one of my favorite players, but he certainly does have a history of being injured a lot.

Perreault is the kind of player we'll want healthy for a playoff run, should be reach the playoffs this year.

There's also plenty of good reasons to argue Perreault should be getting more 5v5 ice time.
There has been some research that does indicate that increased TOI/game is associated with more injuries, however the effect size is small. If one constructed a model to look at the trade-off between having a better player on the ice vs. protecting against the risk of injury, my guess is that you'd want the better player playing more (within reason).

Here's a reference, in case anyone is interested... (http://statsportsconsulting.com/mai...erity-of-Man-Games-Lost-due-to-Injury-1-1.pdf).
 

Puckatron 3000

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There has been some research that does indicate that increased TOI/game is associated with more injuries, however the effect size is small. If one constructed a model to look at the trade-off between having a better player on the ice vs. protecting against the risk of injury, my guess is that you'd want the better player playing more (within reason).

Here's a reference, in case anyone is interested... (http://statsportsconsulting.com/mai...erity-of-Man-Games-Lost-due-to-Injury-1-1.pdf).


Thanks Whileee.
Here's the exact quote from the results section, regarding ice-time and injury:

Starting with the Injury Probability model for Forwards, we find that the most significant
variable is TOI-GM. It was significant but small for all years.

... and the same is said for defensemen as forwards.

So yes, you are right that the effect size was small. But it was also the most significant variable. So, like, more important than anything else. This is, to me, the intuitive result. The more time spent doing something that might injure you, the more likely you might get injured.

The "trade-off" of having Perreault play more ice time, as you mention above, is a more complex issue. It would be tricky to study, because there are so many factors that are specific to the player and the team. Let's assume the Jets win more games with Perreault playing more minutes (reasonable, although counter-arguments could be made). While the Jets remain comfortably above the playoff line, how much do those extra points matter? I guess you'd have to look at your chances of clinching home advantage, as well as how you match up against the other teams in the shifting standings of the Central division. There certainly might be some advantage to be gained there, but it's tough to quantify. On the other hand, I think it can be said with near certainty that a healthy Perreault will help the Jets in the playoffs. So maximizing the chance of a healthy Perreault is unconditionally good, examined in and of itself.

On top of all that, there's a myriad of other Jets-specific factors to consider. Lowry and Perreault seem to be main drivers of our bottom 6 forwards. What impact would it have on the team to move Perreault back into the top 6? It was not long ago when our secondary scoring was considered a major problem for the team. Moving Perreault could also put an even heavier burden on our top lines, as our 4th line becomes much less trustworthy on the ice without him.

All of this isn't to advocate that Perreault should be on the 4th line. It's just to say that it's a more complex issue than some here seem willing to acknowledge in their posts.
 
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Whileee

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Thanks Whileee.
Here's the exact quote from the results section, regarding ice-time and injury:



... and the same is said for defensemen as forwards.

So yes, you are right that the effect size was small. But it was also the most significant variable. So, like, more important than anything else. This is, to me, the intuitive result. The more time spent doing something that might injure you, the more likely you might get injured.

The "trade-off" of having Perreault play more ice time, as you mention above, is a more complex issue. It would be tricky to study, because there are so many factors that are specific to the player and the team. Let's assume the Jets win more games with Perreault playing more minutes (reasonable, although counter-arguments could be made). While the Jets remain comfortably above the playoff line, how much do those extra points matter? I guess you'd have to look at your chances of clinching home advantage, as well as how you match up against the other teams in the shifting standings of the Central division. There certainly might be some advantage to be gained there, but it's tough to quantify. On the other hand, I think it can be said with near certainty that a healthy Perreault will help the Jets in the playoffs. So maximizing the chance of a healthy Perreault is unconditionally good, examined in and of itself.

On top of all that, there's a myriad of other Jets-specific factors to consider. Lowry and Perreault seem to be main drivers of our bottom 6 forwards. What impact would it have on the team to move Perreault back into the top 6? It was not long ago when our secondary scoring was considered a major problem for the team. Moving Perreault could also put an even heavier burden on our top lines, as our 4th line becomes much less trustworthy on the ice without him.

All of this isn't to advocate that Perreault should be on the 4th line. It's just to say that it's a more complex issue than some here seem willing to acknowledge in their posts.
I think Perreault should and will play more. Maurice will find a way. Fact of the matter is that the three other LWs have been outstanding, so it's a good issue to deal with. My preference would be for the #1 line to play less and for Perreault and Armia to get some time with Little or Lowry to give them a bit more 5v5 time.
 

NotCommitted

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Take out about 2 minutes of 1st line time and split that between the 2nd line and a couple shifts or Perrault-Scheifele-Armia. I bet that would be a beast of a line, old man Wheeler would get a bit bit more rest and 2nd line would have more 5v5 time to get going and stay in the game. Just a thought, though that would still leave Perrault and Armia with very low minutes. But that line might be just as good as the legitimate 1st line. A little secret sauce for the perfect pizza, the other team is assuming 4th line and then they get to play against Scheifele instead of Hendricks.
 

sipowicz

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Paul Maurice

Well I went to bed in Raleigh
And I woke up in Winnipeg
I got a million in my pocket
And I'd call you if I could
But I don't know why
I gotta coach (try to)
I want to rock and roll this team
I still want to have some wins
I want to leave you feeling like I can coach
Show you how the western conference was won
But I gotta coach (try to)
I gotta coach (try to)
Like Al Arbour
All I need's a good team
And I'm gonna make it all right
Like Al Arbour
Underneath your radar screen
You'll never catch my losing record....
 

blues10

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Take out about 2 minutes of 1st line time and split that between the 2nd line and a couple shifts or Perrault-Scheifele-Armia. I bet that would be a beast of a line, old man Wheeler would get a bit bit more rest and 2nd line would have more 5v5 time to get going and stay in the game. Just a thought, though that would still leave Perrault and Armia with very low minutes. But that line might be just as good as the legitimate 1st line. A little secret sauce for the perfect pizza, the other team is assuming 4th line and then they get to play against Scheifele instead of Hendricks.
Been thinking the same thing myself for awhile. Even throwing out Little with the 4th line wingers once in awhile.
 

sipowicz

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Jets have a pretty good record this season despite of Maurice (biggest difference has obviously been goaltending and a real D core) but YOU JUST KNOW Maurice is going to muck it all up and the Jets will end up fighting for a playoff spot come April!

Look at the minutes of the Hawks forwards last night and compare it to the utilization of Jets forwards on a game to game basis, Quenneville has the smarts to effectively split ice time almost evenly amongst all forwards and Maurice can't even grasp that better forwards need more than the least amount of ice time he gives them!
 

JetsFan815

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Jan 16, 2012
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Paul Maurice

Well I went to bed in Raleigh
And I woke up in Winnipeg
I got a million in my pocket
And I'd call you if I could
But I don't know why
I gotta coach (try to)
I want to rock and roll this team
I still want to have some wins
I want to leave you feeling like I can coach
Show you how the western conference was won
But I gotta coach (try to)
I gotta coach (try to)
Like Al Arbour
All I need's a good team
And I'm gonna make it all right
Like Al Arbour
Underneath your radar screen
You'll never catch my losing record....

Looks like the last game caused Sip to hit the bottle already on a Friday afternoon :sarcasm:
 
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BigZ65

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Maurice has a really weird way of shortening his bench down 3-0. Sit Perreault's line, cut ice for top 2 lines and throttle 3rd line that has one guy who just doesn't create or produce offense. Guess he's trying to make a point to the team?
 
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Ducky10

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Maurice has a really weird way of shortening his bench down 3-0. Sit Perreault's line, cut ice for top 2 lines and throttle 3rd line that has one guy who just doesn't create or produce offense. Guess he's trying to make a point to the team?

No f***ing kidding, he started the 2nd period with CLT, down 3 goals and the 3rd period down 4-0. C'mon already.
 
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sipowicz

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Maurice has a really weird way of shortening his bench down 3-0. Sit Perreault's line, cut ice for top 2 lines and throttle 3rd line that has one guy who just doesn't create or produce offense. Guess he's trying to make a point to the team?

Well he made his point, became the new league leader in coaching losses and the Jets are trending downward, Mo's doesn't have it to get the team to become a consistent winner good goaltending or not.
 

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