Are the Leafs a paper tiger?

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Figured he'd look a bit better than in Pittsburgh if he was paired with a puck mover to mitigate his limited puck moving ability.

From the games I've seen, he's looked like the Penguins' version minus the over-handling of the puck.

Yeah I hope he can keep it up. He's better than Hunwick for sure

 

[zeke]

It's pretty unusual to give up a goal with a 2-man advantage, as one example.

true, but then again andersen kicked it straight to the stick of a devil, and he wasn't even saving a shot there.

There have been a number of goals against that were tipped right in front of him, a goalie that saves those is getting lucky.

Actually most of the tips have been from a good distance out, and saving goals through traffic is usually a matter of positioning.

You're right though that it's possible that these deflections were too perfect to save, but the good news in that case is that that's more a matter of luck, and deflections won't continue to be that perfect going forward.

There was a goal against that was a shot wide of the net that came off the back boards right to the other team for a tap-in. Over a 4 game sample size that skews things significantly. Those goals aren't going to be happening frequently.

but what exactly was Andy doing there? the shot was nowhere close to the net, yet he was still wildly out of position and far from the crease, and nowhere close to being able to recover for a secondary chance. Certainly he could have played that better?

 

[Liferleafer]

true, but then again andersen kicked it straight to the stick of a devil, and he wasn't even saving a shot there.



Actually most of the tips have been from a good distance out, and saving goals through traffic is usually a matter of positioning.

You're right though that it's possible that these deflections were too perfect to save, but the good news in that case is that that's more a matter of luck, and deflections won't continue to be that perfect going forward.



but what exactly was Andy doing there? the shot was nowhere close to the net, yet he was still wildly out of position and far from the crease, and nowhere close to being able to recover for a secondary chance. Certainly he could have played that better?

Oh come on Zeke...Henrique lost control, Andy was going to jump on the puck....Nylander shovels the puck on his own net forcing Andy to react kicking a rebound out to a guy that not one of the 4 remaining Leafs decided to cover....even though they had 2 extra guys on the ice....and somehow you hang this on Andersen??

This is getting laughable.

You know how that could have been prevented? Maybe Gardiner doesn't booble the puck at the Devil's blueline...maybe Nylander doesn't shoot on his own net....maybe the Leafs play a lick of God Dam Defense?

 

[Kamiccolo]

You cannot read this thread and not see anti Leaf bias is loud and proud. Look, I don't expect anyone to say the Leafs are cup favorites or anything, but when you have a team that had 1 bad game, and that somehow outweighs 3 overall good games played by the team, then yeah, there is some bias.

This thread is just going in circles now. The stats have been posted to show that defense is actually playing pretty average, and goaltending has not been where it needs to be. Anyone who has been on here over a year should already know Andersen did the same terrible start last year and at the end of October he was elite. In fact, fans on here made fun of Zeke for pointing out outside of October last year he was a top 10 goalie in nearly every stat.

We hear "If you take out the bad games then they're all good", which is what others are doing here. Take out all the good things, and ignore puck bounces in a small sample size, and the Leafs are the worst team eve.

 

[Blender]

Oh come on Zeke...Henrique lost control, Andy was going to jump on the puck....Nylander shovels the puck on his own net forcing Andy to react kicking a rebound out to a guy that not one of the 4 remaining Leafs decided to cover....even though they had 2 extra guys on the ice.

This is getting laughable.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't think Andersen played it well, but where was the coverage on Gibbons? Why did no one step up on Henrique to begin with? Both of those are defensive failures at 5on5, let alone 3on5...

 

[zeke]

Just saying "50 shots" is a simplistic analysis of the game and doesn't accurately reflect what happened. Shots at 5on5 were about even until the Devils went up by 2 goals, the gap increased even more after the Devils went up by 3 goals 3:30 into the third period. Half of their 5on5 shots came in the third when they were down by multiple goals. Leafs also had 17 shots on their 8 power plays. If you want to entirely blame goaltending for the loss, that's fine but it's not accurate. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

1st goal: Wood breakaway. Not Andersen's fault.

eh, a goalie is not absolved just because it's a breakaway. Wood didn't deke him, and didn't even make a great shot - it just went right through Andy.

2nd goal: Wood establishes body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.

Andersen was on his knees for a point shot, leaving acres of room at the top of the net, allowing wood's long tip to beat him without even being close to the puck.

3rd goal: Zacha standing in front by himself, roofs the puck from quick pass and release. Not Andersen's fault.

agreed.

4th goal: 3on5 goal where Henrique is allowed to skate all the way in, and not a single Leafs player picks up Gibbons who is trailing. Partially Andersen's fault since he kicked the puck into the slot.

Henrique doesn't even get a shot off on the play, and Andersen kicks the loose puck directly past his open dman beside him onto the stick of the second attacker right in the slot.

5th goal: Coleman shot through a screen and placed the shot perfectly. Andersen could have hugged the post better, but not all on him.

a long wrister that Andersen was nowhere close to. acres of room open to shoot at, again.

6th goal: Zacha established body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.

Again, a tip from distance on a point shot on which Andy was on his knees, leaving all sorts of room open behind him for a puck to go through.


These goals are not all "Andersen's Fault", but he could have saved most of them fairly easily, and should have saved at least some of them.

 

[bunjay]

true, but then again andersen kicked it straight to the stick of a devil, and he wasn't even saving a shot there.

And, for more context, he has to react to Nylander sweeping the puck directly on goal from about 6 feet out. How many times in a year is that sort of situation going to come up? I think it would be safe to say it won't happen again this season. So having one of those happen in the first 4 games skews things.

Actually most of the tips have been from a good distance out, and saving goals through traffic is usually a matter of positioning.

Saving tipped pucks or not isn't a matter of skill as much as chance.

You're right though that it's possible that these deflections were too perfect to save, but the good news in that case is that that's more a matter of luck, and deflections won't continue to be that perfect going forward.

Then we agree completely, don't we?

but what exactly was Andy doing there? the shot was nowhere close to the net, yet he was still wildly out of position and far from the crease, and nowhere close to being able to recover for a secondary chance. Certainly he could have played that better?

That's 100% bullshit. The shot was on the short side, bounced off the boards to the far side right onto the players' stick and in. He was in position for the shot. Watch it again, 3rd period against the hawks. It happened in literally half a second.

There was also a goal against the rangers that was a rebound knocked out of mid-air. Again, that goal happens now and then and isn't on the goalie. You don't expect one of those every 3-4 games. A goal by Winnipeg where the Leafs just stopped playing defense in front of the net when they were up by 6. I count two goals by Chicago where the Leafs also just left guys all alone in front.

 

[Blender]

eh, a goalie is not absolved just because it's a breakaway. Wood didn't deke him, and didn't even make a great shot - it just went right through Andy.

Yes, a goalie is absolved because it's a breakaway. A goalie is never at fault for a breakaway goal. Sometimes you need the goalie to bail the team out and make a huge save like that, but we're talking about the expectation of solid goaltending here, and stopping breakaways isn't the minimum expectation.

Andersen was on his knees for a point shot, leaving acres of room at the top of the net, allowing wood's long tip to beat him without even being close to the puck.

This is a failure of all butterfly goalies, they all go down on almost every shot. This is why so many goals are scored from deflections and redirections in the game today, because the modern butterfly goalie plays angles, goes down and takes up space to block shots. It's the job of the players in front of the goalie to box players out and keep the lanes clear, tie up sticks to prevent tips, etc.

I actually got the first two goals reversed, this was the first one. Santini shoots it from the top of the circle near the boards on the right side of the ice and it's going low and to the right/middle. Wood is standing in the lane screening Andersen with Dominic Moore behind him also screening Andersen, but otherwise having been beat for body position and doing nothing to prevent a tip. Wood tips the puck and it goes left and high right under the bar. This play beats every goalie in the league.

Henrique doesn't even get a shot off on the play, and Andersen kicks the loose puck directly past his open dman beside him onto the stick of the second attacker right in the slot.

As I said in a post right above yours, where was the coverage on Gibbons? He was skating into the slot alone. Henrique was barely challenged when he carried the puck from his own zone all the way to the Leafs net. Andersen played a part by kicking the puck where he did, but he didn't cause this goal. If Henrique had made a pass back to the trailing Gibbons instead, but otherwise this goal was the same, would Andersen still be to blame at all?

a long wrister that Andersen was nowhere close to. acres of room open to shoot at, again.

Rosen passed the puck right to Coleman who was at the top of the circle, he cut into the slot and took a shot just above the pad right off the post. Noesen was standing in front of Andersen with Borgman in front of Noesen doing nothing but helping to screen Andersen. I doubt he even saw this shot. As I said, I thought he could have hugged the post better, but if Coleman had shot far side and scored instead, it wouldn't have made much of a difference. This was a terrible defensive breakdown.

Again, a tip from distance on a point shot on which Andy was on his knees, leaving all sorts of room open behind him for a puck to go through.

See the Wood goal. It's almost a carbon copy only from the left side of the ice. Kadri doing a terrible job of defending Zacha who is allowed to tip the puck that's going dead centre on Andersen from below the hash marks to right off the top right corner of the net. He had zero chance on this shot, none.

 

[zeke]

Oilers are a much better team with Larsson in and Hall out....that's a bad example.

are they? Hall would make that team way more dangerous, imo.

And a pure defensive D is exactly what Rielly needs, that's already being proven by Hainsey, and Tavev>>Hainsey.

Hainsey seems to be clearly better by most metrics.

 

[zeke]

What are Leafs' fans thoughts on Hainsey so far? Honestly curious.

I was high on him when we signed him, and he's been even better than I expected. His mobility is way better than I hoped, and his decision making is near perfect (though it helps that he's playing with one of the best puck movers in the league in rielly - dumping it to rielly really lets his other skillset shine without pressuring him too much to do things he can't). Only once have I seen him hold onto the puck too long this year, and that was in the offensive zone. And when he moves it, it's always to safety.

No wonder this guy got so many minutes even while playing on teams with very talented dmen beside him.

 

[zeke]

Yes. Ever notice how the Leafs have three lines that are extremely dangerous offensively?

weird that we give ups "so many" scoring chances, yet our opponents always give up more, no?

maybe other teams, even good teams, give up more scoring chances than you think?

 

[zeke]

Oh come on Zeke...Henrique lost control, Andy was going to jump on the puck....Nylander shovels the puck on his own net forcing Andy to react kicking a rebound out to a guy that not one of the 4 remaining Leafs decided to cover....even though they had 2 extra guys on the ice....and somehow you hang this on Andersen??

This is getting laughable.

You know how that could have been prevented? Maybe Gardiner doesn't booble the puck at the Devil's blueline...maybe Nylander doesn't shoot on his own net....maybe the Leafs play a lick of God Dam Defense?

1. pretty sure willy didn't even touch that puck.
2.andersen kicked it straight into the slot.

surely you admit andy could have handled that better?

 

[zeke]

And, for more context, he has to react to Nylander sweeping the puck directly on goal from about 6 feet out. How many times in a year is that sort of situation going to come up? I think it would be safe to say it won't happen again this season. So having one of those happen in the first 4 games skews things.




Saving tipped pucks or not isn't a matter of skill as much as chance.



Then we agree completely, don't we?

Don't agree completely, but close enough. Most tipped wristers from the point don't end up in goals. Either Andy's positioning was poor or he was just unlucky that these tips went to the right spots. COuld be either.

That's 100% bull****. The shot was on the short side, bounced off the boards to the far side right onto the players' stick and in. He was in position for the shot. Watch it again, 3rd period against the hawks. It happened in literally half a second.

No, I'm sorry, he sold out and went swimming on a low percentage shot nowhere near the net, and was in no position to react to any secondary chance that might happen.