Are the Leafs a paper tiger?

[Pi]

I doubt that's true. Every team gives up chances. You need your goalie to bail u out once in awhile. The fact that they are winning with below average goaltending is huge.

It's not true.

According to Natural Stat Trick, High Danger Chances for all situations: 73 for and only 44 against.

Even strength: 43 for, 30 against.

Andersen is letting the team down right now. His SV% is reflective of his play but the good news is that there is no way he's the 44th best goalie in the NHL, it is still early. He will bounce back.

 

[LeafFever]

I'm a Leafs fan, and watch the games, and I think they do give up an alarming number of high danger chances. Andersen is a good goalie, team defense is a big reason his save percentage is so poor right now. Also a disproportionate number of tips/deflections so far this season that will inevitably go down.

Andersen has given up some crappy goals and been pretty average-bad after that first game.

 

[winnipegger]

Winning with below average goaltending doesn't typically last the whole season

source: am Jets fan

 

[bunjay]

I doubt that's true. Every team gives up chances. You need your goalie to bail u out once in awhile. The fact that they are winning with below average goaltending is huge.

It's pretty unusual to give up a goal with a 2-man advantage, as one example.

There have been a number of goals against that were tipped right in front of him, a goalie that saves those is getting lucky.

There was a goal against that was a shot wide of the net that came off the back boards right to the other team for a tap-in. Over a 4 game sample size that skews things significantly. Those goals aren't going to be happening frequently.

 

[BHD]

A "paper tiger" that's Top 10 in both shots for (41.3) and against (31.0) per game. They just need to tighten things up defensively, which Babcock has made note of.

 

[LeafFever]

A "paper tiger" that's Top 10 in both shots for (41.3) and against (31.0) per game. They just need to tighten things up defensively, which Babcock has made note of.

This.

 

[LeafFever]

Winning with below average goaltending doesn't typically last the whole season

source: am Jets fan

Andersen's never been bad the entire season though. He did this last season in October.

 

[Blender]

The Devils were definitely outplayed. 50 shots. Schneider bailed them out.
The Devils little run is over.

Just saying "50 shots" is a simplistic analysis of the game and doesn't accurately reflect what happened. Shots at 5on5 were about even until the Devils went up by 2 goals, the gap increased even more after the Devils went up by 3 goals 3:30 into the third period. Half of their 5on5 shots came in the third when they were down by multiple goals. Leafs also had 17 shots on their 8 power plays. If you want to entirely blame goaltending for the loss, that's fine but it's not accurate. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

1st goal: Wood breakaway. Not Andersen's fault.
2nd goal: Wood establishes body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.
3rd goal: Zacha standing in front by himself, roofs the puck from quick pass and release. Not Andersen's fault.
4th goal: 3on5 goal where Henrique is allowed to skate all the way in, and not a single Leafs player picks up Gibbons who is trailing. Partially Andersen's fault since he kicked the puck into the slot.
5th goal: Coleman shot through a screen and placed the shot perfectly. Andersen could have hugged the post better, but not all on him.
6th goal: Zacha established body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.

Did you actually watch the game?

Since there are a ton of Devils posters here riding high on their PDO, I'll ask them this: Do the Devils even have a single win if their goalie was giving them well below average goaltending?

I've not once said the Devils are a better team than the Leafs or that they would finish ahead of the Leafs. They won't because their team isn't as good. Besides my first post in the thread that said they were a top offensive team with some defensive and goaltending issues, but were obviously a sure playoff team, I've been discussing the specific Devils/Leafs game.

 

[Cotton]

Andersen hasn't been solid at all outside of the Wpg game. But he's not getting much help either as Gardiner has been garbage, Rosen and Borgman too, though Borg has been better than Rosen. Still that's half our D turning the puck over, losing postion, not clogging lanes etc.

And we need someone to clear the crease because in at least the last two game players have been allowed real-estate infront of our net, and are effectively screening Freddy for goals against.

And a hate to say it because he has 2 goals but I think our 4th line is more effective overall with Fehr.

If this were GM mode I'd send Rosen to the Marlies, call up Dermott, sit Borgman and trade Gardiner for a defensive-D. Ideally someone like Tanev if possible.

Rielly/Tanev
Hainsey/Zaitsev
Dermott/Carrick

Much better imo.

 

[LeafFever]

Andersen hasn't been solid at all outside of the Wpg game. But he's not getting much help either as Gardiner has been garbage, Rosen and Borgman too, though Borg has been better than Rosen. Still that's half our D turning the puck over, losing postion, not clogging lanes etc.

And we need someone to clear the crease because in at least the last two game players have been allowed real-estate infront of our net, and are effectively screening Freddy for goals against.

And a hate to say it because he has 2 goals but I think our 4th line is more effective overall with Fehr.

If this were GM mode I'd send Rosen to the Marlies, call up Dermott, sit Borgman and trade Gardiner for a defensive-D. Ideally someone like Tanev if possible.

Rielly/Tanev
Hainsey/Zaitsev
Dermott/Carrick

Much better imo.

I think you're overreacting to 1 poor game. He's been good.
And please, Tanev is not that good and will cost too much. Move on.

 

[Leafsdude7]

They have a great offence, but a lacking defense, and a wildly inconsistent goalie.

I think they're a fringe playoff team, but 1) could they be this latter decade's version of the Capitals, 2) in that they will fall apart when it matters? Or do they need to make a trade to go far this season?

1) As you said, we've not even become a perennial playoff team yet. It's unfair and unreasonable to go forward and compare us to the Capitals in any capacity right now.

2) We've played 6 playoff games. Evaluating playoff pedigree with this team is impossible at this moment. The fact that they won 2 games when they were supposed to win 0 and probably forfeit after game 3 to save their bruised egos does seem to suggest a larger possibility that they can turn it up for the playoffs to a level beyond what the current Caps ever have, however.

 

[Liferleafer]

I think you're overreacting to 1 poor game. He's been good.
And please, Tanev is not that good and will cost too much. Move on.

The only thing i will disagree with here is the Tanev isn't good part. He's actually very good at defense, offense? Not so much....and ya, the cost would probably be to high.

 

[LeafFever]

The only thing i will disagree with here is the Tanev isn't good part. He's actually very good at defense, offense? Not so much....and ya, the cost would probably be to high.

The pure defensive dman is not a good idea. They cost too high and is not where the league is going right bow. Oilers overpaid bad for Larrson.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

not you, the other guy
He said Andersen could never look good in front of our defense. First of all, he did last year. Second of all, our team's defense has been better than his performance if you look at statistics. The guy has no clue what he's talking about

Yeah, you're right - he doesn't know what he's talking about. The Leafs have proven that defensive structure is way more important than defensive talent. Not that I don't think the Leafs have talent - they are probably average - but their systems/structure more than compensate for deficiencies on the back end. It was probably a troll. Speaking of which, what have you guys done to BayStreetBully? The dude spends a year telling everyone that nobody in TO cares about Laine or the Jets and then creates a fake Jets fan account and spends hours on HF Jets per day complimenting other Jets players just to trash Laine? Sad!

 

[Liferleafer]

Just saying "50 shots" is a simplistic analysis of the game and doesn't accurately reflect what happened. Shots at 5on5 were about even until the Devils went up by 2 goals, the gap increased even more after the Devils went up by 3 goals 3:30 into the third period. Half of their 5on5 shots came in the third when they were down by multiple goals. Leafs also had 17 shots on their 8 power plays. If you want to entirely blame goaltending for the loss, that's fine but it's not accurate. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

1st goal: Wood breakaway. Not Andersen's fault.
2nd goal: Wood establishes body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.
3rd goal: Zacha standing in front by himself, roofs the puck from quick pass and release. Not Andersen's fault.
4th goal: 3on5 goal where Henrique is allowed to skate all the way in, and not a single Leafs player picks up Gibbons who is trailing. Partially Andersen's fault since he kicked the puck into the slot.
5th goal: Coleman shot through a screen and placed the shot perfectly. Andersen could have hugged the post better, but not all on him.
6th goal: Zacha established body position and tips the puck from the slot. Not Andersen's fault.

Did you actually watch the game?


I've not once said the Devils are a better team than the Leafs or that they would finish ahead of the Leafs. They won't because their team isn't as good. Besides my first post in the thread that said they were a top offensive team with some defensive and goaltending issues, but were obviously a sure playoff team, I've been discussing the specific Devils/Leafs game.

If i may add to this, on the 4th goal, the only reason Andersen kicked it out was because Nylander shot it at him...Henrique had basically lost control and Andy was going to jump on it...but he had to quickly react to Nylander putting it at him.

And the 5th goal was a perfect tape to tape pass from our defenseman to Coleman...not sure Andy was quite expecting that.

 

[Cotton]

I think you're overreacting to 1 poor game. He's been good.
And please, Tanev is not that good and will cost too much. Move on.

Hah, you must be new.

Yeah you are.

 

[Liferleafer]

The pure defensive dman is not a good idea. They cost too high and is not where the league is going right bow. Oilers overpaid bad for Larrson.

Oilers are a much better team with Larsson in and Hall out....that's a bad example. And a pure defensive D is exactly what Rielly needs, that's already being proven by Hainsey, and Tavev>>Hainsey.

 

[LeafFever]

Oilers are a much better team with Larsson in and Hall out....that's a bad example. And a pure defensive D is exactly what Rielly needs, that's already being proven by Hainsey, and Tavev>>Hainsey.

Based on what?
And Hall fits in perfectly with the new structure and the Devils look much better.

 

[Liferleafer]

Based on what?
And Hall fits in perfectly with the new structure and the Devils look much better.

Umm...success? They needed a D upgrade...they got one. The signing of Lucic softened the loss of Hall. On paper, it looked like overpayment...but the results have been beneficial.

 

[LeafFever]

Umm...success?

They added a generational talent for a full season last year. Saying well the team did better with Larsson proves nothing. And right now the Oilers are lacking depth on the wing badly.

 

[Liferleafer]

They added a generational talent for a full season last year. Saying well the team did better with Larsson proves nothing. And right now the Oilers are lacking depth on the wing badly.

You think their D group has the same quality with Larsson as it did without?

 

[LeafFever]

You think their D group has the same quality with Larsson as it did without?

No, but I do think he gets way too much credit for the improvement. And they are missing a Hall right now.

 

[bunjay]

It's not true.

According to Natural Stat Trick, High Danger Chances for all situations: 73 for and only 44 against.

Even strength: 43 for, 30 against.

Andersen is letting the team down right now. His SV% is reflective of his play but the good news is that there is no way he's the 44th best goalie in the NHL, it is still early. He will bounce back.

That says more about the Leafs offense than it says about Andersen's goaltending.

It also depends how they're defining "high danger." Do tips or deflections from otherwise mundane shots count? I think the Leafs have allowed at least 4 goals of that type.

How about missed shots that bounce off the end-boards right onto a completely un-checked opposing forward?

How about rush chances where a forward playing defense stick-checks the puck directly on his own goal?

These are goals that won't happen this frequently through the whole season. Your advanced stats have their limitations 4 games into the season. THey can't account for these goals going in at an unsustainable rate.

 

[Brobust]

Winning with below average goaltending doesn't typically last the whole season

source: am Jets fan

That doesn't apply to the leafs because Andersen isn't a below average goalie. He's got enough games to be categorized as an above average goalie.

 

[Liferleafer]

No, but I do think he gets way too much credit for the improvement. And they are missing a Hall right now.

He gets credit for improving the back end...and deserves it. And we all know that even if they are missing Hall, it's a lot easier to trade for a winger than it is to trade for a young top 4D, they made the right move. You also have to factor in the cap savings.