Post-Game Talk: Another OT Win

[Flowah]

I don't want to get too ahead of myself here, but Mantha looks like Rick Nash (prime, younger Rick Nash) out there. Not many big guys have the quickness, and hands, and shot combination that Mantha has. Again, it's too early to say Mantha will be as dominant as Nash was in his prime, but a big guy with this type of speed/skill/shot combination is a rarity. As with all of our players, he needs to find some consistency, if he does there is no reason he can't score 35+ goals per year.

Man I would not make that comparison at all. Nash is a physical power forward and I haven't seen that from Mantha. Mantha is a big guy with incredible reach but uses his skill and finesse more than his strength. But no reason he can score 35. Dude has one hell of a shot and is blessed with so many natural physical gifts. Give him a good playmaker and he'll score for you.

 

[Reddwit]

Man I would not make that comparison at all. Nash is a physical power forward and I haven't seen that from Mantha. Mantha is a big guy with incredible reach but uses his skill and finesse more than his strength. But no reason he can score 35. Dude has one hell of a shot and is blessed with so many natural physical gifts. Give him a good playmaker and he'll score for you.

Comparisons aren't perfect - I think the comparison is apt. Both were questionable defensively when younger, were inconsistent in their efforts (shifts of domination followed by shifts of floating), great shots but also great hands in-close, great skaters for big men - deceptively quick, and had some snarl. Nash was nastier/rugged more consistently but still has a temper, evinced by how quickly he'll throw down at times.

 

[RedWingzz]

Man I would not make that comparison at all. Nash is a physical power forward and I haven't seen that from Mantha. Mantha is a big guy with incredible reach but uses his skill and finesse more than his strength. But no reason he can score 35. Dude has one hell of a shot and is blessed with so many natural physical gifts. Give him a good playmaker and he'll score for you.

Nash as a rookie had 31 hits in 74 games, 0.41 hits/GP.
Mantha as a rookie has 46 hits in 58 games, 0.79 hits/GP.

Yes, Nash was younger in his rookie season. Nash as a 22 year old had 67 hits in 80 games, 0.83 hits/GP.

I know these stats can be misleading, as it all comes down to the NHL stats guys, and what is deemed a hit varies from person to person. In my mind though, Nash is a solid comparison for Mantha. Nash can skate for a big guy, so can Mantha. Nash can dangle, so can Mantha. Nash can snipe, so can Mantha. I also think as Mantha's role gets bigger, he will start to become even more physical on the fore check. Of course there are some differences between them, but in terms of comparing Mantha to a big guy who skates well and has hands and a lethal shot, Nash comes to mind. I can't really think of anyone else...

Eric Lindros..?

 

[Perfect Human]

Chances are they don't ever become elite, given how few players are and how they typically can be predicted before they reach 22. People knew McDavid, Matthews, Crosby, Laine, would be elite before they even entered the league. Usually if you're elite material you're going to show that in the AHL or your first year in the NHL. Yes, sometimes they develop into it later, but usually not.

And AA's great, I love him, I pump his tires all the time. I've said over and over his "ceiling" is Datsyuk level. He's so good at greasing by defenders and he's so fast. But chances are he never hits that level. And his possession metrics aren't very promising either, despite his G/60. Low ice time typically inflates that anyway.

Kucherov, Stamkos, Marchand, Granlund, Atkinson???

 

[Flowah]

But I'm not talking about stats or production. Not every player who has similar production is the same kind of player.

Nash is a quintessential power forward. Mantha is not. So in terms of "looking like" a Rick Nash, I don't see it. He's more like Franzen in his later years. Big, soft hands, amazing shot, gets open real well, but doesn't play the power forward game.

Kucherov, Stamkos, Marchand, Granlund, Atkinson???

Stamkos, the guy who went 1OA and scored 51 goals and was over PPG 2 years after being drafted, wasn't seen as elite before he was 22?

I'm also confused by the purpose of your list. You seem to be under the impression I said it was impossible for anyone who isn't elite by 22 to ever become elite. I didn't. I just said it was highly unlikely. And I'm right. So giving a few names, at least one of which doesn't even belong, doesn't disprove me even slightly.

 

[Frk It]

Kucherov, Stamkos, Marchand, Granlund, Atkinson???

Stamkos is included... why? He had a 60 goal season before turning 22.

 

[RedWingzz]

But I'm not talking about stats or production. Not every player who has similar production is the same kind of player.

Nash is a quintessential power forward. Mantha is not. So in terms of "looking like" a Rick Nash, I don't see it. He's more like Franzen in his later years. Big, soft hands, amazing shot, gets open real well, but doesn't play the power forward game.

Sure, Mantha is a better Franzen.

Speed: Mantha > Franzen
Quickness: Mantha > Franzen
Hands: Mantha = Franzen
Shot: Mantha > Franzen
Physicality: Mantha > Franzen
Clutch play: Mantha < Franzen
Vision: Mantha > Franzen
2 way play: Mantha = Franzen
Grit: Mantha < Franzen

Overall, I think Mantha has the abilities to become better than Franzen. Although Franzen was insanely clutch in the playoffs.

 

[SirloinUB]

Sure, Mantha is a better Franzen.

Speed: Mantha > Franzen
Quickness: Mantha > Franzen
Hands: Mantha = Franzen
Shot: Mantha > Franzen
Physicality: Mantha > Franzen
Clutch play: Mantha < Franzen
Vision: Mantha > Franzen
2 way play: Mantha = Franzen
Grit: Mantha < Franzen

Overall, I think Mantha has the abilities to become better than Franzen. Although Franzen was insanely clutch in the playoffs.

I think you're underselling Franzen a bit.

Franzen was definitely the better two way player, especially for the first half of his career. Franzen also had an amazing shot that is no worse than Mantha's.

 

[Perfect Human]

Stamkos is included... why? He had a 60 goal season before turning 22.

Players who wern't thought to be ever elite before they were 22. Stamkos was almost a "bust" for 23 goals in his rookie season (79 games, 0.291g/game). How many does Mantha have in his rookie season? 17 in 58 games (0.293g/game). Thats why I included Stamkos. I believe Mantha will score 30+ next season with a full season and ANOTHER productive off season.

 

[Perfect Human]

But I'm not talking about stats or production. Not every player who has similar production is the same kind of player.

Nash is a quintessential power forward. Mantha is not. So in terms of "looking like" a Rick Nash, I don't see it. He's more like Franzen in his later years. Big, soft hands, amazing shot, gets open real well, but doesn't play the power forward game.



Stamkos, the guy who went 1OA and scored 51 goals and was over PPG 2 years after being drafted, wasn't seen as elite before he was 22?

I'm also confused by the purpose of your list. You seem to be under the impression I said it was impossible for anyone who isn't elite by 22 to ever become elite. I didn't. I just said it was highly unlikely. And I'm right. So giving a few names, at least one of which doesn't even belong, doesn't disprove me even slightly.

I did misunderstand. It seemed from your post that if you weren't deemed elite by 22 then you would not become elite. Stamkos was viewed, at least by the lightning, to have issues and not able to be elite after his first season, albeit 4 yr younger than Mantha. Clearly that was all wrong. I can't find the article, but I remember them being disappointed in his production after his rookie season.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Players who wern't thought to be ever elite before they were 22. Stamkos was almost a "bust" for 23 goals in his rookie season (79 games, 0.291g/game). How many does Mantha have in his rookie season? 17 in 58 games (0.293g/game). Thats why I included Stamkos. I believe Mantha will score 30+ next season with a full season and ANOTHER productive off season.

Stamkos was only considered an almost "bust" by Barry Melrose, who was a terrible coach for him in his rookie season.

 

[Perfect Human]

Stamkos was only considered an almost "bust" by Barry Melrose, who was a terrible coach for him in his rookie season.

Nonetheless, still almost considered so.

 

[Wood Stick]

Sure, Mantha is a better Franzen.

Speed: Mantha > Franzen
Quickness: Mantha > Franzen
Hands: Mantha = Franzen
Shot: Mantha > Franzen
Physicality: Mantha > Franzen
Clutch play: Mantha < Franzen
Vision: Mantha > Franzen
2 way play: Mantha = Franzen
Grit: Mantha < Franzen

Overall, I think Mantha has the abilities to become better than Franzen. Although Franzen was insanely clutch in the playoffs.

Bro, Franzen was clutch as **** in the playoffs. His 13/14 season with Nyquist where he took over as the first line C, he was clutch. He was a beast game in and out.

two-way play isn't ****ing close. Franzen>>

 

[CanadaIsIrrelevant]

Am I seeing this right?

3 days 3 games? 26th, 27th and 28th?

How come?

 

[Heaton]

Am I seeing this right?

3 days 3 games? 26th, 27th and 28th?

How come?

There was a makeup game for the one missed in Carolina a couple weeks ago.

 

[Wood Stick]

Am I seeing this right?

3 days 3 games? 26th, 27th and 28th?

How come?

Rescheduled game due to bad ice in Carolina a bit ago.

 

[Wood Stick]

There was a makeup game for the one missed in Carolina a couple weeks ago.

Was it only a couple weeks ago? I swear to god it was earlier than that. I thought it was early January or something.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't want to get too ahead of myself here, but Mantha looks like Rick Nash (prime, younger Rick Nash) out there. Not many big guys have the quickness, and hands, and shot combination that Mantha has. Again, it's too early to say Mantha will be as dominant as Nash was in his prime, but a big guy with this type of speed/skill/shot combination is a rarity. As with all of our players, he needs to find some consistency, if he does there is no reason he can't score 35+ goals per year.

But for the franchise as a whole, there's a big difference between a guy like Nash with and without a good center to create on offense. Not to mention a real defense behind him.

Detroit could somehow get another clone of Mantha, and an extra AA to boot, but without decent key positions around them, much of their potential will go to waste.

 

[Flowah]

Players who wern't thought to be ever elite before they were 22. Stamkos was almost a "bust" for 23 goals in his rookie season (79 games, 0.291g/game). How many does Mantha have in his rookie season? 17 in 58 games (0.293g/game). Thats why I included Stamkos. I believe Mantha will score 30+ next season with a full season and ANOTHER productive off season.

Okay.... But how old was Stamkos when he had his 51 goal season? How old was he when people knew he was elite?

Hint: it was before he was 22.

 

[Perfect Human]

Okay.... But how old was Stamkos when he had his 51 goal season? How old was he when people knew he was elite?

Hint: it was before he was 22.

You are absolutely correct, it was in his 19-20 year.

How many games had he played when he hit his 51 goals?

Hint: over 120.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Was it only a couple weeks ago? I swear to god it was earlier than that. I thought it was early January or something.

I believe it was around December 19th when the game was postponed due to bad ice way more then a couple weeks ago though.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Was it only a couple weeks ago? I swear to god it was earlier than that. I thought it was early January or something.

It was mid-December - 12/19, to be exact.

Don't mean to pop in but I'd like to echo what a bunch of the other HFCanes crew have said here and in other places but class act by your players (and your fans) in sticking around while Lack was tended to and loaded up in the ambulance. Word is that scans done at the hospital were negative and that it's a strained neck. Still, scary to see and probably the scariest play I've witnessed live as a hockey fan.

A pic I took from my seats in PNC's upper bowl last night.

Again, pure class, especialy given I'm sure your guys were tired after playing a full 60 minutes plus OT and wanted nothing more than to get back to the hotel and rest up for tonight's game. Your guys are alright by me - even more so if next time they come down they leave behind a couple pizzas from Buddy's.

 

[ricky0034]

Stamkos was only considered an almost "bust" by Barry Melrose, who was a terrible coach for him in his rookie season.

and even in his rookie year he only struggled in the first half

after that he took off and never looked back

you'd have to completely ignore that context to even call his rookie year as a whole "bad" really

you'd certainly have to be a bit on the blind side to think that someone with Stamkos's pedigree was even remotely heading towards being a bust after putting up 19 goals and 32 points in 39 games to finish off his rookie season

 

[Flowah]

You are absolutely correct, it was in his 19-20 year.

How many games had he played when he hit his 51 goals?

Hint: over 120.

Thanks for the irrelevant factoid!

You'll notice I didn't say anything about games played but about age.

Because age matters.

It is entirely less impressive that a 22 year old does well in a league as compared to a teenager. There's a reason leagues are separated by age until you get to the NHL. Because being older, up to a point, is a huge advantage. You're bigger, stronger, more coordinated, hell you're even smarter. That's why "overagers" aren't as impressive as some young kid who's blowing it up in other leagues. That's why the 30 year old who's lighting up the Finnish leagues isn't as impressive as the 17 year old who can hang with the men.

Age matters. It matters that Mantha is 22 and doing what he's doing. If he were doing it as an 18 year old I'd be over the moon. He's doing it as a 22 year old so I'm not.

 

[TheMule93]

Sure, Mantha is a better Franzen.

Speed: Mantha > Franzen
Quickness: Mantha > Franzen
Hands: Mantha = Franzen
Shot: Mantha > Franzen
Physicality: Mantha > Franzen
Clutch play: Mantha < Franzen
Vision: Mantha > Franzen
2 way play: Mantha = Franzen
Grit: Mantha < Franzen

Overall, I think Mantha has the abilities to become better than Franzen. Although Franzen was insanely clutch in the playoffs.

Franzen's shot is no worse than Manthas. Neither are/were physical but at least Franzen wasn't built like a pencil and was able to protect the puck really well. Franzen better two way player too as others have mentioned. The only thing Mantha clearly has over franzen is skating/agility.