Andreas Athanasiou

[Pavels Dog]

I agree with most of this. However, even with the $1.9M offer for AA, Holland would still end up over the limit, necessitating some tweaking via trade or waivers, etc. and would still have to leave a couple roster spots unfilled. Unless of course some injuries open up space. But then how responsible would that be to rely on injuries to be compliant...?

Way more responsible than assuming zero injuries will happen and building your team according to that belief. But yes, if the impossible happens and we're healthy some "tweaking" is necessary. Gasp! Sproul and Witkowski could hit waivers!

As for the year two and three thing, couldn't Holland have just waited to sign someone next summer?

1. Daley improves our D now. Like it or not, Holland is on his last year of his contract and can't do nothing. Even a small improvement to the roster could be enough to get ownership to extend him and pass the blame to Blashill for now (if the team sucks again).
2. "Someone" may not be the kind of player Daley is. It's not like the UFA market for D-men is usually stacked.

Lastly, your last scenario makes sense, but you aren't accounting for the likelihood that Holland will throw away some of that cap space on 7/1/18 as he on that day every year. Even if Larkin, Mantha and Mrazek don't come anywhere close to the examples you gave, there won't be as much room after Holland brings Dan Hamhuis and a veteran forward into the fold next summer... On top of that, any measureable improvement in Sheahan after next season and Holland will likely qualify him and lock him up, eating up even more of that space.

Look; Holland in all likelihood accounted for AA coming in at ~2 million. Yes, that doesn't work with our cap right now, but it only has to work on day 1 of the season and we don't know how Holland is planning to do that. Heck he could be planning to dump whoever plays worst in camp between Howard and Mrazek. As for next year, unless Larkin and Mantha have bad season they're going to be much higher priorities to sign than AA was. Not sure if they'll have arbitration rights, but they'll likely have a lot more leverage at least.

 

[Winger98]

Comments like that are similar to that whole "Kindl = Stralman" comment by Holland.

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

have us signing a 29 year old Stralman and I'll be okay with it.

Daley does nothing to move this club forward in any significant way. Is he better than Franson, et al.? Sure, but enough to matter with this team? No. So, don't waste money and term on it. All he's really doing is giving us a vet for when Kronwall and Ericsson hit LTIR, but we'd probably be better off just leaning more on XO, Jensen, and Russo.

 

[ShelbyZ]

If Daley pushes someone on our rag tag d down the depth chart, he is an improvement to the d. He will be our 3rd best d at a minimum. How is that not an improvement?

How is AA NOT a depth forward?

Adding a #4 dman on a good team, to a team that possibly does not even have #1-3 dman, might give them an extra win or two, but does nothing to improve the teams standing overall. ESPECIALLY when his signing might cost them a "depth" forward who only potted 18 of their impressive 207 total goals last season, while sitting at #11 among their forwards in ice time.

 

[Ezekial]

I don't think it's a concern. We give Holland a lot of flak for the loyalty he shows guys, but I think it also means he's not going to try to screw Athanasiou over if he does go to Russia. When AA comes back, it'll probably be the same $1.9m deal that is reportedly on the table now.
.

There is no way in hell that he will go to the KHL for four years. Name me one other Canadian-born RFA who has done it for 4 years. He would get more than a QFO when he returns, but Kenny isn't going to bend over backwards to re-sign him either.

This situation doesn't make Kenny look great, but until he actually signs with a KHL team this is nothing more than an ongoing contract negotiation.

I don't think that's how it will be handled, as I said in my second line I expect them to come back with the same offer, not a penny more. I think telling AA something like that would further fracture the situation.
Honestly I'm getting the feeling that he'd have signed by now if he was going to the KHL, but at the same time I feel like an article will pop up saying he's outie the minute I post this.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Way more responsible than assuming zero injuries will happen and building your team according to that belief. But yes, if the impossible happens and we're healthy some "tweaking" is necessary. Gasp! Sproul and Witkowski could hit waivers!

Even with AA in the fold (especially at $2M limit you proposed), Witkowski is still technically their 12th forward... So if they have to waive him, do they roll 11F and 7D every game and then roll the dice with 17 skaters and 20 minutes of Zetterberg if someone gets hurt the day of a road game or in warm ups? Or 17 on those 2nd of back to back when Kronwall is supposed to rest? And then have no ability to call somebody up for a look if everyone is healthy or someone is struggling and needs a rest

Sounds great.

And as far as "someone" on the blueline next summer. I'm sure they could find another aging dman who can skate and maybe pot 15-20 points on an offensively challenged team if they throw around the same $3-4M and no trade clause... Holland probably already has contracts written up for Luca Sbisa, Jack Johnson and Dan Hamhuis anyway. You are vastly overvaluing Trevor Daley.

 

[avssuc]

Because our defense was a ****ing mess?

Was? The Wings might have one legit top 4 D back there, but yea... adding another bottom pairing guy (Daley) will make a world of difference.

 

[StargateSG1]

Was? The Wings might have one legit top 4 D back there, but yea... adding another bottom pairing guy (Daley) will make a world of difference.

And Green was signed to run the 1st power play, allegedly,
only to see Kronwall stuck there with 1 point in 2 years.

 

[Henkka]

Why are we arguing about Daley?

He was signed to be a trade bait. Nothing has changed. Warm body which is gonna be traded on his last contract year. Contract is structured that way as a clear hint. Before that we will sell Green etc. It was just a free asset, projected to be traded for futures on later years.

His signing does nothing for the team level, does not prevent signing Athanasiou or crap like that, but it was that "season ticket marketing" -move for dumb people who believe Hollands speech that we try to be on a playoff hunt. Or for people, who just enjoy to be drunk on the games and won't care about results. But still love Red Wings.

We will not be on the playoff hunt when the puck drops, but the money business thing is on the play. These PTOs are same thing. Build up the hockey hype. Come to visit new arena. Money business thing.

In reality, we will be on the Dahlin/Svechnikov hunt. 3rd worst team in the league with or without Daley and with or without Athanasiou.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Why are we arguing about Daley?

He was signed to be a trade bait. Nothing has changed. Warm body which is gonna be traded on his last contract year. Contract is structured that way as a clear hint. Before that we will sell Green etc. It was just a free asset, projected to be traded for futures on later years.

His signing does nothing for the team level, does not prevent signing Athanasiou or crap like that, but it was that "season ticket marketing" -move for dumb people who believe Hollands speech that we try to be on a playoff hunt. Or for people, who just enjoy to be drunk on the games and won't care about results. But still love Red Wings.

We will not be on the playoff hunt when the puck drops, but the money business thing is on the play. These PTOs are same thing. Build up the hockey hype. Come to visit new arena. Money business thing.

In reality, we will be on the Dahlin/Svechnikov hunt. 3rd worst team in the league with or without Daley and with or without Athanasiou.

A player on a 3 year contract is not signed to be trade bait. And it certainly isn't a free asset.

So I guess you're still pushing the "secret tank" theory?

 

[StargateSG1]

A player on a 3 year contract is not signed to be trade bait. And it certainly isn't a free asset.

So I guess you're still pushing the "secret tank" theory?

That theory is called "Don't believe your eyes".

 

[ShelbyZ]

Playing around on CapFriendly, I'm almost convinced that Hollands $1.9M offer to AA rides on the ability to desperately dump Mrazek if needed.

If you get the max possible for Franzens LTIR, keep ALL waiver exempt players in GR, put Coreau on the main roster and waive/demote Sproul, you get around $940k of cap space. Then, if you waive/demote Mrazek, it goes up to around $1.97M. Just enough to fit AA at $1.9M if everyone is healthy. But if someone with a 7 digit cap hit starts on IR, they could keep Mrazek up.

Of course, waiving and demoting him would be last ditch but it wouldn't surprise me if Holland has Mrazek jotted down as the way to open cap space. Either through a trade with retained salary or even down to waivers. They were clearly prepared to let him go in the expansion draft and Khan has reported a few times that they likely won't want to tender his $4.15M QO this Spring unless he can really turn it around.

I just can't see how else he would open up salary. It doesn't sound like anyone other than Franzen is going to be LTIR'd, we know he won't (and in some cases can't) trade Ericsson/Helm/Abdelkader/etc., probably wouldn't trade Howard unless he has an atrocious camp and pre-season and waiving/demoting Witkowski alone doesn't give them enough space and leaves them with 11 forwards including AA. Maybe Sheahan is a possibility, but I don't see them dumping him off now when teams might pay a premium for even a decent 3rd line center, which he could still turn into. Has to be Mrazek.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Saw this on Reddit

 

[StargateSG1]

Playing around on CapFriendly, I'm almost convinced that Hollands $1.9M offer to AA rides on the ability to desperately dump Mrazek if needed.

If you get the max possible for Franzens LTIR, keep ALL waiver exempt players in GR, put Coreau on the main roster and waive/demote Sproul, you get around $940k of cap space. Then, if you waive/demote Mrazek, it goes up to around $1.97M. Just enough to fit AA at $1.9M if everyone is healthy. But if someone with a 7 digit cap hit starts on IR, they could keep Mrazek up.

Of course, waiving and demoting him would be last ditch but it wouldn't surprise me if Holland has Mrazek jotted down as the way to open cap space. Either through a trade with retained salary or even down to waivers. They were clearly prepared to let him go in the expansion draft and Khan has reported a few times that they likely won't want to tender his $4.15M QO this Spring unless he can really turn it around.

I just can't see how else he would open up salary. It doesn't sound like anyone other than Franzen is going to be LTIR'd, we know he won't (and in some cases can't) trade Ericsson/Helm/Abdelkader/etc., probably wouldn't trade Howard unless he has an atrocious camp and pre-season and waiving/demoting Witkowski alone doesn't give them enough space and leaves them with 11 forwards including AA. Maybe Sheahan is a possibility, but I don't see them dumping him off now when teams might pay a premium for even a decent 3rd line center, which he could still turn into. Has to be Mrazek.

Sheahan should be "dumped" to the highest bidder.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Sheahan should be "dumped" to the highest bidder.

Just can't see Holland doing it. For two reasons:

1. It'll fly in the face of Holland's "Depth is a good problem to have" mantra
2. It would leave them thin down the middle, especially considering that they are merely going to "start" with Larkin at center

 

[Hammettf2b]

Just can't see Holland doing it. For two reasons:

1. It'll fly in the face of Holland's "Depth is a good problem to have" mantra
2. It would leave them thin down the middle, especially considering that they are merely going to "start" with Larkin at center

I would think thin is going a little too far.

Frans
Hank
Helm
Glendening
Larkin
Abby if need be

I don't think losing Sheahan makes it thin at all

 

[Shaman464]

They won't sell Sheahan until the TDL at the earliest. He is cratered in his value currently, and if he only scores 2 goals between the first puck drop and the TDL his value has already increased compared today.

 

[ShelbyZ]

They won't sell Sheahan until the TDL at the earliest. He is cratered in his value currently, and if he only scores 2 goals between the first puck drop and the TDL his value has already increased compared today.

Teams will usually pay a premium for centers at the deadline. Being only 26 with some size and not exactly coming in as a rental, Sheahan could fetch a decent return if he isn't exactly awful for the first 3/4 of next season.

Right now the Penguins are still hunting for a 3rd line center. Maybe Holland hopes a good camp out of Riley might get their attention and draw a decent offer.

That being said, if Sheahan does have a better season next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see Holland lock him up at a reasonable price. Something like the last Kindl extension...

 

[Frk It]

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

(Assuming this is about AA)

Come on. He's been in that grouping you've said could be the next core for a year now. Then we don't sign him, and now he's just a "depth forward"... really???

 

[Leronziia]

(Assuming this is about AA)

Come on. He's been in that grouping you've said could be the next core for a year now. Then we don't sign him, and now he's just a "depth forward"... really???

It's funny that we are calling a feasibly calculable 20 goal scorer a depth forward.

Really?

 

[Flowah]

(Assuming this is about AA)

Come on. He's been in that grouping you've said could be the next core for a year now. Then we don't sign him, and now he's just a "depth forward"... really???

It's moving the goalposts. It's what apologism is based on.

That's why the same crowd that used to beg and plead that Holland was trying to keep the team good has changed tunes to say that what Holland is actually doing is just trying to make money in the new arena. Oh but he's also committed to the rebuild!

Trying to make sense of it isn't going to work. The only explanation is that this is about defending Holland above all, not about honesty.

 

[mouser]

Playing around on CapFriendly, I'm almost convinced that Hollands $1.9M offer to AA rides on the ability to desperately dump Mrazek if needed.

If you get the max possible for Franzens LTIR, keep ALL waiver exempt players in GR, put Coreau on the main roster and waive/demote Sproul, you get around $940k of cap space. Then, if you waive/demote Mrazek, it goes up to around $1.97M. Just enough to fit AA at $1.9M if everyone is healthy. But if someone with a 7 digit cap hit starts on IR, they could keep Mrazek up.

Of course, waiving and demoting him would be last ditch but it wouldn't surprise me if Holland has Mrazek jotted down as the way to open cap space. Either through a trade with retained salary or even down to waivers. They were clearly prepared to let him go in the expansion draft and Khan has reported a few times that they likely won't want to tender his $4.15M QO this Spring unless he can really turn it around.

I just can't see how else he would open up salary. It doesn't sound like anyone other than Franzen is going to be LTIR'd, we know he won't (and in some cases can't) trade Ericsson/Helm/Abdelkader/etc., probably wouldn't trade Howard unless he has an atrocious camp and pre-season and waiving/demoting Witkowski alone doesn't give them enough space and leaves them with 11 forwards including AA. Maybe Sheahan is a possibility, but I don't see them dumping him off now when teams might pay a premium for even a decent 3rd line center, which he could still turn into. Has to be Mrazek.

If KH was willing to send Mrazek to the AHL, then he might as well try to move him at 50% retained--would save more cap space and real dollars.

 

[StargateSG1]

It's moving the goalposts. It's what apologism is based on.

That's why the same crowd that used to beg and plead that Holland was trying to keep the team good has changed tunes to say that what Holland is actually doing is just trying to make money in the new arena. Oh but he's also committed to the rebuild!

Trying to make sense of it isn't going to work. The only explanation is that this is about defending Holland above all, not about honesty.

Now it's a "secret rebuild" they keep pushing, you know!

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Why are we arguing about Daley?

He was signed to be a trade bait. Nothing has changed. Warm body which is gonna be traded on his last contract year. Contract is structured that way as a clear hint. Before that we will sell Green etc. It was just a free asset, projected to be traded for futures on later years.

His signing does nothing for the team level, does not prevent signing Athanasiou or crap like that, but it was that "season ticket marketing" -move for dumb people who believe Hollands speech that we try to be on a playoff hunt. Or for people, who just enjoy to be drunk on the games and won't care about results. But still love Red Wings.

We will not be on the playoff hunt when the puck drops, but the money business thing is on the play. These PTOs are same thing. Build up the hockey hype. Come to visit new arena. Money business thing.

In reality, we will be on the Dahlin/Svechnikov hunt. 3rd worst team in the league with or without Daley and with or without Athanasiou.

Gets me every time.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The biggest point is... If AA would sign the 1.9M contract, the Wings would make the requisite salary cap move (or just kinda wait and cross their fingers that a guy gets an insignificant injury so they can IR him but not actually lose any depth).

If they NEED the cap room, they can make it. AA is unsigned because he wants more than the Wings are interested in paying him, not because they can't pay him.

Trevor Daley's signing has no bearing on AA's contract. The fact that signing him for over what his contract comparables are is not something they're interested in doing is the deciding factor.

Just the same way that if Mantha or Larkin blows up next year and goes 60+ points... they'll make cap space room to give them a contract.

Holland and the Wings FO value him at a certain level. He's not worth more than that to them. If he wants to play in Detroit, he'll do it for that contract. If he doesn't, he can go to the KHL. They could have 10M free, I don't think they want to go over comparables for him.

 

[Winger98]

The biggest point is... If AA would sign the 1.9M contract, the Wings would make the requisite salary cap move (or just kinda wait and cross their fingers that a guy gets an insignificant injury so they can IR him but not actually lose any depth).

If they NEED the cap room, they can make it. AA is unsigned because he wants more than the Wings are interested in paying him, not because they can't pay him.

Trevor Daley's signing has no bearing on AA's contract. The fact that signing him for over what his contract comparables are is not something they're interested in doing is the deciding factor.

Just the same way that if Mantha or Larkin blows up next year and goes 60+ points... they'll make cap space room to give them a contract.

Holland and the Wings FO value him at a certain level. He's not worth more than that to them. If he wants to play in Detroit, he'll do it for that contract. If he doesn't, he can go to the KHL. They could have 10M free, I don't think they want to go over comparables for him.

I think you're wrong here. In the end, it probably doesn't change the Wings' max offer, but I think it definitely affected what Holland led off with, and maybe refused to significantly move from until the rumored KHL offer.

Holland came in with that initial offer of $1.25m because it fit the best with where our cap was after Daley was signed. And that low ball offer is, imo, why Athanasiou was left unsigned long enough for the KHL to begin stepping in and throwing their money around.

Now the Daley offer doesn't matter. But where Daley's deal impacted the Athanasiou negotiations was at the beginning. If you really want to absolve the Daley deal of any responsibility, then I guess it would rest with Holland who seems to have badly misjudged where Athanasiou stood.