Andreas Athanasiou

[Pavels Dog]

So take this with a grain of salt but. I had a conversation tonight with my new contact who's job "is related" to the red wings. (I will not say more about his position or contact name).

He told me the situation (to his knowledge of course) goes something like this:

"the coaches do not like him." - (I could say that is obvious based on AA's playing time.)

He said something like first it was because he wasn't putting effort into the defensive side of the game. secondly there was an attitude problem. And thirdly this escalated into somekind of pissing match. By which he meant athanasiou basically stopped following direction of the coaches and wanted to play his own game.

(Now this may be a good move on AA's part, or maybe not, but my contact did say this disobeying your coaches is kind of a no no in hockey).(old boys club)

He basically said Detroit was trying to trade AA all last year.

He called the situation "A mess".


I mean nothing is in stone. But it sounds like AA and Detroit are parting ways. (who knows how (trade, KHL), but thats what it sounds like)

I should note my contact was not pleased with the current direction the wings were taken, and was not on board with Detroit letting AA go.

I call BS.

Few reasons-

1. AA was brought up way earlier than he needed to be; and the coaches don't like him? Huh? Why not send him down then?

2. His icetime increased over the course of the season; that's a pissing match?

3. I have no doubt AA's name has been thrown around in trade discussions, but that's something much different than "trying to trade". Holland rather clearly stated he would not trade AA for less than an equal-talent/age D.

 

[Mister Ed]

This might not mean anything, but :

But the wild card to all this is the possibility of a trade. According to an NHL source, the Red Wings are engaging in conversations on a couple of different trade fronts [to make room for AA].

Source (paywall)

I think he ultimately signs and is traded later on, kind of like Drouin did.

 

[TCNorthstars]

This might not mean anything, but :



Source (paywall)

I think he ultimately signs and is traded later on, kind of like Drouin did.

You forgot some context here. After that statement, Custance talks about trading Sheahan. He doesn't necessarily say they are talking trading AA.

 

[Ezekial]

This might not mean anything, but :



Source (paywall)

I think he ultimately signs and is traded later on, kind of like Drouin did.

Not that I would condone this way of handling the situation, it's definitely crossed my mind over the past couple weeks.

In fact, one NHL executive not with Detroit said he'd tell Athanasiou that if he left for the KHL this year, his best offer coming back next year would be his qualifying offer, which is 110 percent of last season’s salary. In Athanasiou’s case, not much.

It's about a third of what his 2 year 1.9.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not that I would condone this way of handling the situation, it's definitely crossed my mind over the past couple weeks.

It's about a third of what his 2 year 1.9.

That'd be a perfectly acceptable way for Holland to handle it.

Bennet is another good comparable for AA and he signed for 2x1.95. AA does not deserve more in any way.

 

[Ezekial]

That'd be a perfectly acceptable way for Holland to handle it.

Bennet is another good comparable for AA and he signed for 2x1.95. AA does not deserve more in any way.

If Holland wants to play white-knuckled hard-ball, yea, he's totally in his right to throw QFOs at him even now. I can see them telling him to not expect a penny more than he's been offered next year no matter how it turns out in the K. I think telling him he's gonna get a QFO no matter what is a good way to lose him to the KHL for 4 years.

 

[Winger98]

If Holland wants to play white-knuckled hard-ball, yea, he's totally in his right to throw QFOs at him even now. I can see them telling him to not expect a penny more than he's been offered next year no matter how it turns out in the K. I think telling him he's gonna get a QFO no matter what is a good way to lose him to the KHL for 4 years.

I don't think it's a concern. We give Holland a lot of flak for the loyalty he shows guys, but I think it also means he's not going to try to screw Athanasiou over if he does go to Russia. When AA comes back, it'll probably be the same $1.9m deal that is reportedly on the table now.

You forgot some context here. After that statement, Custance talks about trading Sheahan. He doesn't necessarily say they are talking trading AA.

So, Holland is looking at giving Sheahan away to make room for Athanasiou, who might still bolt for Russia. I can see us losing both of them over this.

Also, the story that Daley's signing hasn't affected the Athanasiou negotiations need to stop at this point. If Holland's looking to move people now it's because he never planned on spending this much money on Athanasiou in the first place.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don't think it's a concern. We give Holland a lot of flak for the loyalty he shows guys, but I think it also means he's not going to try to screw Athanasiou over if he does go to Russia. When AA comes back, it'll probably be the same $1.9m deal that is reportedly on the table now.



So, Holland is looking at giving Sheahan away to make room for Athanasiou, who might still bolt for Russia. I can see us losing both of them over this.

Also, the story that Daley's signing hasn't affected the Athanasiou negotiations need to stop at this point. If Holland's looking to move people now it's because he never planned on spending this much money on Athanasiou in the first place.

And? It doesn't have anything to do with it. The Wings needed a top 4 capable D more than they needed 3.5 million free to negotiate with AA. Holland planned on giving him an RFA comparable deal. He wouldn't need to move Sheahan to do so.

At July 1, there was no indication that AA was gonna be some bear to sign. If he signs a 1.9M contract, they waive Sproul and go on with life. It's only "affecting the negotiations" because AA is trying to wrangle for more than his contemporaries.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

If Holland wants to play white-knuckled hard-ball, yea, he's totally in his right to throw QFOs at him even now. I can see them telling him to not expect a penny more than he's been offered next year no matter how it turns out in the K. I think telling him he's gonna get a QFO no matter what is a good way to lose him to the KHL for 4 years.

There is no way in hell that he will go to the KHL for four years. Name me one other Canadian-born RFA who has done it for 4 years. He would get more than a QFO when he returns, but Kenny isn't going to bend over backwards to re-sign him either.

This situation doesn't make Kenny look great, but until he actually signs with a KHL team this is nothing more than an ongoing contract negotiation.

 

[Winger98]

And? It doesn't have anything to do with it. The Wings needed a top 4 capable D more than they needed 3.5 million free to negotiate with AA. Holland planned on giving him an RFA comparable deal. He wouldn't need to move Sheahan to do so.

At July 1, there was no indication that AA was gonna be some bear to sign. If he signs a 1.9M contract, they waive Sproul and go on with life. It's only "affecting the negotiations" because AA is trying to wrangle for more than his contemporaries.

Athanasiou signs for $1.9m, we send Sproul down, carry just twelve forwards, and we're still over the cap by $340K.

The only way we're cap compliant is if more guys go on LTIR or we carry a 20 man roster. Holland was not planning on something comparable, but something a good chunk below that.

edit: we could be cap compliant by sending XO down and keeping Sproul, because the max deduction we get from that would be just enough (by $58k) to make the cut. There's no way this is what Holland was planning when the off-season started.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And? It doesn't have anything to do with it. The Wings needed a top 4 capable D more than they needed 3.5 million free to negotiate with AA. Holland planned on giving him an RFA comparable deal. He wouldn't need to move Sheahan to do so.

At July 1, there was no indication that AA was gonna be some bear to sign. If he signs a 1.9M contract, they waive Sproul and go on with life. It's only "affecting the negotiations" because AA is trying to wrangle for more than his contemporaries.

We needed a top-4 defenseman? For what?

If it was simply to fill a roster spot you didn't need to spend $3 million.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We needed a top-4 defenseman? For what?

If it was simply to fill a roster spot you didn't need to spend $3 million.

Because our defense was a ****ing mess? Because we actually have speed and hands on our front end and many rushes went to die because we didn't have defensemen capable of getting the puck to our guys in stride?

Maybe instead of trying to focus on signing a guy who can rush and get you 18 goals by himself, you sign a defenseman that can augment your stretch pass game a little bit and potentially lead to improvements that way?

I know the common feeling here is "why try to be good at all?" but you have to try to improve your team. Especially when you're transitioning ownership from a notoriously player friendly, at his own expense do everything to win type of owner in Mr. I to maybe a numbers cruncher, money-focused guy in his son.

Can it get you stuck in no-mans land? Sure. But as long as Chris I is willing to pay to the limit and give his GM the tools he needs, I'm okay with a little meandering. I'd be much more worried if he were double-knotting the money bag.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Also, the story that Daley's signing hasn't affected the Athanasiou negotiations need to stop at this point. If Holland's looking to move people now it's because he never planned on spending this much money on Athanasiou in the first place.

Yeah it's not like kicking tires is Holland's default mode or anything.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Athanasiou signs for $1.9m, we send Sproul down, carry just twelve forwards, and we're still over the cap by $340K.

The only way we're cap compliant is if more guys go on LTIR or we carry a 20 man roster. Holland was not planning on something comparable, but something a good chunk below that.

edit: we could be cap compliant by sending XO down and keeping Sproul, because the max deduction we get from that would be just enough (by $58k) to make the cut. There's no way this is what Holland was planning when the off-season started.

And even in that scenario, they still only carry 12 forwards... There's NO WAY the guy that always preaches "depth is a good problem to have" planned for this when he wasted another $3M+ on Daley.

He must have legitimately thought Tatar would roll over and take <$4.5M and AA would accept the $1.25M offer. Then he could re-tread Vanek and hope the usually populated list of players on IR would keep them under.

The Daley signing is what created this whole issue.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah it's not like kicking tires is Holland's default mode or anything.

yeah, I just wish he would have waited a bit to kick some of the tires still left in the junk yard. The difference between Daley and the guys still available just isn't enough to make me happy the Wings rushed into it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And even in that scenario, they still only carry 12 forwards... There's NO WAY the guy that always preaches "depth is a good problem to have" planned for this when he wasted another $3M+ on Daley.

He must have legitimately thought Tatar would roll over and take <$4.5M and AA would accept the $1.25M offer. Then he could re-tread Vanek and hope the usually populated list of players on IR would keep them under.

The Daley signing is what created this whole issue.

I would be literally shocked if we make it through camp with all of the roster healthy. Kronwall has no knees, E has no hip, Sproul and Tatar are recovering from surgery, Helm is famously injury prone, Z is 50 years old, Howard always gets hurt..

yeah, I just wish he would have waited a bit to kick some of the tires still left in the junk yard. The difference between Daley and the guys still available just isn't enough to make me happy the Wings rushed into it.

Comments like that are similar to that whole "Kindl = Stralman" comment by Holland.

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Because our defense was a ****ing mess? Because we actually have speed and hands on our front end and many rushes went to die because we didn't have defensemen capable of getting the puck to our guys in stride?

Maybe instead of trying to focus on signing a guy who can rush and get you 18 goals by himself, you sign a defenseman that can augment your stretch pass game a little bit and potentially lead to improvements that way?

I know the common feeling here is "why try to be good at all?" but you have to try to improve your team. Especially when you're transitioning ownership from a notoriously player friendly, at his own expense do everything to win type of owner in Mr. I to maybe a numbers cruncher, money-focused guy in his son.

Can it get you stuck in no-mans land? Sure. But as long as Chris I is willing to pay to the limit and give his GM the tools he needs, I'm okay with a little meandering. I'd be much more worried if he were double-knotting the money bag.

The defense will be a mess with Daley or some other filler player. That isn't going to provide a significant improvement for our forwards long-term (if that will happen at all with a guy like Daley). Because of the decision to potentially help your young forwards, you are absolutely hurting another young forward (assuming the Daley signing forced Holland to start too low and make way for a KHL offer) who will possibly be playing in another league in gigantic ice for at least a year, away from the Red Wings system. What Daley provides to the team is not sufficient enough to ignore AA and future players who will be needing raises.

Comments like that are similar to that whole "Kindl = Stralman" comment by Holland.

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

You should know and understand the context behind why people are against the Daley signing and why people would rather the money be on the books to sign AA without jumping through all these hoops.

 

[TatarTangle]

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

Unfortunately the concept of building a competitive team up the middle is a foreign concept to people. It's all about those dirty end to ends once every 10 games! And continual turnovers. And lack of back checking. And basically every other part of AAs game that doesn't involve skating towards the offensive zone. The guy is nothing short of a complimentary piece but you'd think he's the second coming of Pavel Bure.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

It would be one thing if the signing made sense for their cap situation, or he made some adjustments to fit it, or it was one year deal where the guy could move at the deadline.

Instead he locks him up for three years and with a NTC, when he knows he needs room to re-sign RFA's this summer AND NEXT.

And as far is improving the D, it's moot. The guy will likely finish with something like 3 goals and 12 assists and have little impact on the PP and the team will still miss the playoffs by a large margin. His signing also hinders any hope of re-signing or replacing Green, which ends up being a net negative for improving the D long term.

Just a dumb signing for reasons mostly outside of what Daley can or can't do to improve the D.

I also question why Daley would even sign with this dumpster fire, other than some nice mid April tee-times for a change and some quality paychecks from a contract that will keep him from having to relocate his family and two Cup rings for at least a couple years. A win-win for him actually...

 

[StargateSG1]

I would be literally shocked if we make it through camp with all of the roster healthy. Kronwall has no knees, E has no hip, Sproul and Tatar are recovering from surgery, Helm is famously injury prone, Z is 50 years old, Howard always gets hurt..


Comments like that are similar to that whole "Kindl = Stralman" comment by Holland.

Never thought I'd see the day Holland is actually criticized for improving the D before focusing on signing a depth a forward. Pure insanity around here these days.

Insanity is thinking that 34 years old Daley is somehow an "improvement".
And calling AA "depth forward", BTW, is insane as well.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It would be one thing if the signing made sense for their cap situation, or he made some adjustments to fit it, or it was one year deal where the guy could move at the deadline.

Instead he locks him up for three years and with a NTC, when he knows he needs room to re-sign RFA's this summer AND NEXT.

And as far is improving the D, it's moot. The guy will likely finish with something like 3 goals and 12 assists and have little impact on the PP and the team will still miss the playoffs by a large margin. His signing also hinders any hope of re-signing or replacing Green, which ends up being a net negative for improving the D long term.

Just a dumb signing for reasons mostly outside of what Daley can or can't do to improve the D.

You're looking at things in a 1 year perspective, at most. In year 2 and 3 of Daley's contract, some or all of Green/Kronwall/Ericsson will be gone. As for losing Green being a "net negative", at some point Hronek/Cholowski/Saarijarvi/Hicketts/etc should start improving our D from within, maybe even a Dahlin or other top 5-10 pick. Daley fits into that picture of being a depth veteran a lot better than the aforementioned, more expensive and more declining players.

We have no trouble signing AA cap-wise. Holland's offer is right in line with what he should get. AA has no leverage to get anything else so regardless of cap space Holland should not offer anything more than fair value. If AA wants to go to Russia, blame him and his agent. Our RFAs will be re-signed no issues. Sure if Larkin goes 30+30 at center and Mantha hits 40+40 and Mrazek rebounds and wins the Vezina, there could be some shortage of cash. But in that scenario we're a high-end playoff team and it's likely a lot of our secondary players have gained enough value to be attractive trade pieces.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Insanity is thinking that 34 years old Daley is somehow an "improvement".
And calling AA "depth forward", BTW, is insane as well.

If Daley pushes someone on our rag tag d down the depth chart, he is an improvement to the d. He will be our 3rd best d at a minimum. How is that not an improvement?

How is AA NOT a depth forward?

 

[ShelbyZ]

You're looking at things in a 1 year perspective, at most. In year 2 and 3 of Daley's contract, some or all of Green/Kronwall/Ericsson will be gone. As for losing Green being a "net negative", at some point Hronek/Cholowski/Saarijarvi/Hicketts/etc should start improving our D from within, maybe even a Dahlin or other top 5-10 pick. Daley fits into that picture of being a depth veteran a lot better than the aforementioned, more expensive and more declining players.

We have no trouble signing AA cap-wise. Holland's offer is right in line with what he should get. AA has no leverage to get anything else so regardless of cap space Holland should not offer anything more than fair value. If AA wants to go to Russia, blame him and his agent. Our RFAs will be re-signed no issues. Sure if Larkin goes 30+30 at center and Mantha hits 40+40 and Mrazek rebounds and wins the Vezina, there could be some shortage of cash. But in that scenario we're a high-end playoff team and it's likely a lot of our secondary players have gained enough value to be attractive trade pieces.

I agree with most of this. However, even with the $1.9M offer for AA, Holland would still end up over the limit, necessitating some tweaking via trade or waivers, etc. and would still have to leave a couple roster spots unfilled. Unless of course some injuries open up space. But then how responsible would that be to rely on injuries to be compliant...?

As for the year two and three thing, couldn't Holland have just waited to sign someone next summer? Those kid you listed are entering their 1nd and 2nd years of pro. They will likely have little impact in replacing Green or any others listed during those 2nd and 3rd years of Daleys deal.

Lastly, your last scenario makes sense, but you aren't accounting for the likelihood that Holland will throw away some of that cap space on 7/1/18 as he on that day every year. Even if Larkin, Mantha and Mrazek don't come anywhere close to the examples you gave, there won't be as much room after Holland brings Dan Hamhuis and a veteran forward into the fold next summer... On top of that, any measureable improvement in Sheahan after next season and Holland will likely qualify him and lock him up, eating up even more of that space.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Unfortunately the concept of building a competitive team up the middle is a foreign concept to people. It's all about those dirty end to ends once every 10 games! And continual turnovers. And lack of back checking. And basically every other part of AAs game that doesn't involve skating towards the offensive zone. The guy is nothing short of a complimentary piece but you'd think he's the second coming of Pavel Bure.

How have we been building up the middle, and how does a signing like Daley improve us long-term on that account?

You don't start a rebuild with Trevor Daley.

 

[mouser]

I would be literally shocked if we make it through camp with all of the roster healthy. Kronwall has no knees, E has no hip, Sproul and Tatar are recovering from surgery, Helm is famously injury prone, Z is 50 years old, Howard always gets hurt..

I'm sure there will be some dings and at least minor injuries during training camp. The question is whether those are going to be 10+ games missed sort of injuries--the minimum required for LTIR.