All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

[seventieslord]

I feel a bit like I'm following myself up with this pick, but the Boston Bruins select center Don McKenney.

Excellent pick. It's not your fault that we didn't learn and take him a lot earlier.

8 top-20s in goals. that's not easy to find right now.

With our fifteen selection, the 385th overall in this year All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are extremely please to select center Fleming Mackell

Stanley Cup Champion (1949, 1951)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1953, 1957, 1958)
NHL First All-Star Team (1953)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (1947, 1948, 1949, 1954)
Top-10 Scoring (7th, 8th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (5th)
Top-10 Assist (5th, 8th)
*0.55 Point per game in the regular season*
Top-10 Playoff Scoring (1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (4th, 5th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (1st, 1st, 6th, 6th, 7th, 10th)
*0.79 Point per game in the playoffs*

Hart Nomination (8th)

- ''There was a lot of intimidation if you weren't big. If you weren't a rough, tough player, you could never show that you didn't like the rough stuff or they would run you out of the league.'' - Fleming Mackell

Your bio styles of late remind me of something

 

[Kyle McMahon]

And I'm not sure why you're not objective. Maybe the guy with Hainsworth on his team beat you and you're still bitter about it, or maybe he did kick your great-grandfather's dog, I don't know. All I know is that normal people usually don't take it upon themselves to make sure that no one regards George Hainsworth higher than he thinks they should.

Seventies didn't single out your player, he's been challenging Hainsworth's ranking within the hockey community for a while now. And he's built up a strong case that Hainsworth's been overrated in an all-time context.

No, it proves he was a great goalie. To be worthy of Vezina's number wasn't just to be "not bad", it was especially to be great. Especially considering Hainsworth's heritage. I can only make assumptions, but from what I've learned about Quebec in those days, the Toronto goalie had better have been pretty damn amazing if he was gonna wear the number of a French-Canadian legend.

That's a pretty weak argument. Numbers weren't regarded with the same reverence then that are now. Lots of great players had their numbers passed on to scrubs when they retired back then. (And no, I'm not saying Hainsworth was a scrub)

And, come on, now you're trying to take away his Vezina's? Yeah, you're sure objective. The Vezina may have meant something differently prior to 1982, but if you're going to mention that for just Hainsworth, you might as well mention that about every goalie who won one prior to 1982.

Most people don't consider pre-'82 Vezinas to be worth much when ranking players. I don't know how many Plante or Sawchuk or Hall won for example, and it's of fairly little importance. First and second team all-stars carry far more weight. We don't have the luxury of AST for Hainsworth's best years, but seventies has taken that into consideration and credited him as best he can.

The point was that many, if not all, of these authors had and have great access to first or second-hand accounts of these players, and all you have is a website that shows their stats. I don't want to offend you, but I'd rather put my money on them over you.

A guy writing a book about hockey doesn't necessarily make him an expert on the subject, and doesn't necessarily mean he's done thorough enough research. And the poeple who give the first and second hand accounts aren't the be all and end all either. A panel of supposed experts though Henri Richard was about the 30th best player of all time. "Experts" on the TSN panel and in newspapers think Martin Brodeur is the best goalie of all time and Nik Lidstrom is second only to Orr for defensemen. Stan Fischler is one of the most well-known hockey authors, and many of his player rankings are outrageously inaccurate. I'm not throwing the opinions of former players and coaches who've been around the game for decades out the window, but outsiders like the people in here have done countless hours of research themselves and their conclusions are not to be dismissed either.

Way to be consistant at least. Hainsworth wasn't great because he had great defensive defensemen in front of them, but Lionel Conacher getting better can have nothing to do with Worters' success. And they do not illustrate Worters' impact perfectly. The Americans goalie the year before Worters came, who is also the guy who replaced Worters in Pittsburg, was god-awful and easily the worst goalie in the league. His back-up in New York was even worse than he was, and during that season before Worters arrived he played about 15 or so games. Now giving credit where credit is due is one thing, but let's not discount that maybe the Americans allowed so many goals because they had the league's worst tandem. Again, what Worters did was very good, but let's not act like Clint Benedict had been playing in New York up until that time and still allowing that many goals. ANYTHING would've been an improvement for the Americans.

Joe Miller (I don't think anyone will mind me naming him), the American's starter before Worters, never had anything resembling a decent team in front of him in the regular season. But he did play for the Rangers in the 1928 Final when Rangers goalie xxxxx xxxxx was injured. In three games Miller allowed just three goals, leading the Rangers to the Cup. A really small sample size I know, but in the only instance of Miller having a good club in front of him, he shone. In Miller's last year in the NHL he was stuck on the awful Quakers team with xxxx xxxx as a goaltending partner. Miller posted a better average than xxxx, and xxxx went on to have an OK career once he escaped from the Quakers.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'm heading out soon and won't be back until tomorrow morning or afternoon. Who wants a list?

I can take a list, Kyle. My times away from the computer shouldn't be too extensive.

 

[seventieslord]

I have Kyle's list.

 

[Wisent]

Anyang selects King Kong Korab
If I cant make it within on hour when I am up again, just skip me. Very stressy weeks these days.

 

[Reds4Life]

Can someone take my list? I am not going to be around for at least 9 hours..

 

[God Bless Canada]

Can someone take my list? I am not going to be around for at least 9 hours..

I can take a list. I'll be around fairly regularly until tomorrow night.

 

[seventieslord]

Pick coming shortly. Just quickly consulting co-GM.

 

[seventieslord]

Coach, Tommy Gorman.

 

[Hedberg]

Victoria selects D Paul Reinhart

Legends of Hockey:

As a Flame, Reinhart made a leap directly to the pro ranks, quickly establishing himself as a superior two-way defender with versatility to boot. Although he preferred his blueline duties, he sometimes played on a forward line where some have claimed that 100-point seasons were his for the taking.

But nonetheless, as a rearguard he showed plenty of offensive spark, especially setting up goals. He was also a very strong playoff performer, netting 77 points in 83 contests over the course of his eleven-year career.

 

[Sturminator]

Anybody want a 1 name list?

 

[God Bless Canada]

Anybody want a 1 name list?

Yep.

 

[seventieslord]

Georges Vezina stuff from The Trail:

Vezina was an exceptionally cool player who never seemed to be hurried. He played his position upright and rarely fell to save a shot. His imperturbable manner earned him the sobriquet of Chicoutimi Cucumber.

(3/20/1916) With the exception of Vezina the rest of the team appeared listless

(3/23/1917) Vezina was a standout in goal in spit of the four that the Mets got past him.

(3/08/1924) The opposing goalers were in bad shape. benedict had just recovered from injuries that kept him out of action for two games while Vezina was running a fever of 101.

(3/11/1925) vezina was in great form...

That's from his bio and from the synopses of selected playoff games.

 

[seventieslord]

Frank Patrick:

He was not the eqal of Lester as a player but nevertheless in his early days he was a very good defenseman. A rugged and well-built athlete, he did not mind mixing it up with players like Joe Hall.

...when Si Griffis broke his leg, Patrick took over his defense position from ***** **** in the stanley cup matches. they swept the series in three straight games, Patrick scoring two goals.

(3/15/1915) Frank Patrick filled in on the defense himself and took keen delight in jousting with his old pal Art Ross.

Interesting thing I found in 1917:

Portland had not left the cellar since the start of the season despite the brilliant work of ..... newcomer Ernie Johnson. He was captain of the team and recognized as the best defenseman in the league. He was many times noted as the star of the game but was just as often criticized for his unnecessary rough play. In a game against Vancouver February 3rd, he specialized in knocking sticks out of the hands of players and it was alleged that he was probably drunk.

 

[hfboardsuser]

It's interesting he preferred a stand-up style even after the rule changes in 1918, although I guess I could have figured that out- a 5'6 goalie dropping to the ice wouldn't have been all that much of an obstacle up high!

Thanks for the info.

 

[nik jr]

Coach, Tommy Gorman.

Georges Vezina stuff from The Trail:

That's from his bio and from the synopses of selected playoff games.

thanks

i found something about game 4 of the '19 flu series. both holmes and vezina allowed no goals, and the referee decided to end the scoreless game after 20 minutes of OT.


it looks like vezina vs holmes is one of the biggest goaltending rivalries in history.

Frank Patrick:

Interesting thing I found in 1917:

the link i posted a couple of pages ago about holmes also mentioned that frank patrick was involved in a bloody stickfight with newsy lalonde in '10.
that kind of thing seems to have been common.

here is another part:

Frank Patrick, the younger of the two, followed his brother to McGill. Unlike Lester, however, he did graduate. He then went to work in several of his father's logging camps, playing in a senior hockey league on the frontier of British Columbia. In 1909, he joined an Ontario team, the Renfrew Millionaires, at a salary of $2,000 for twelve games. Lester also signed on with Renfrew, at $3,000.

Those sums, outrageous for the time, were not the only huge salaries dished out by Renfrew owner M.J. O'Brien in his quest for a Stanley Cup winner: he also signed a relatively unknown player named Fred Taylor for the unbelievable price of $5,250, for a twelve game schedule. By comparison, Ty Cobb, the new baseball sensation who was universally hailed as the greatest player of the age, had signed a contract worth $6,500 per year for two seasons. With 154 games in the baseball season, Cobb's salary worked out to $45 per game. Taylor, on the other hand, took home $450 per game.

i knew taylor was very well paid, but $450 per game is shocking.

 

[VanIslander]

I assume a six hour clock begins right after Habs pick:

392 - CanadiensFan - Montreal Canadiens - ON THE CLOCK (four hours remaining on eight hour clock)

Round 15

393 - Nalyd Psycho - Minnesota Fighting Saints
394 - pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
395 - papershoes - Kenora Thistles
396 - Wisent - Anyang Halla
397 - Evil Speaker & Sturminator - Boston Bruins
398 - Kyle McMahon - Hampton Roads Admirals
399 - Reds4Life- Trinec Steelers
400 - ChampagneWishes - Killarney Country Bear Jamboree

 

[seventieslord]

the link i posted a couple of pages ago about holmes also mentioned that frank patrick was involved in a bloody stickfight with newsy lalonde in '10.
that kind of thing seems to have been common.

here is another part:

i knew taylor was very well paid, but $450 per game is shocking.

Yep, there are definitely more incident reports out there. And I've read a few involving Frank. I get the impression that much like Lester, he was not a trouble maker but if you came at him, he'd give you the lumber.

The book "The Renfrew Millionaires" by Frank Cosentino is a great read. It's the whole 1910 NHA season from the Renfrew team's standpoint. They had Taylor, The Patricks, Lalonde, and a couple of other HHOFers. I'd recommend it to anyone because it is full of in-game descriptions, giving you a great idea of how some guys played. There are some descriptions in there of other stories from the "past" like Lester's 1905 Stanley Cup matches as a Wanderer. I would go look some stuff up, except that the book is not indexed. (The Trail isn't either, but it's laid out by year and league so it's easier to flip through to find what you want)

 

[Canadiens Fan]

With the 392nd pick in the draft the Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Ted Harris, D.

 

[pitseleh]

Nalyd selects G Eddie Giacomin.

I'll have my pick shortly.

 

[pitseleh]

The Clippers select a player with three first team all-star selections, three top-5 Hart finishes and Lester B. Pearson award, and one of my personal favourites, LW Markus Naslund.

I had something else planned but I can't pass up a player with Naslund's resume. I'll probably play him on the fourth line and use him as a PP specialist in Prentice's spot on the second line.

 

[papershoes]

the kenora thistles are pleased to begin their third line with an early-era offensive star...

frank frederickson (c)

...this is my third atd and, the third time i've selected frederickson.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Wiser asked to give him an hour once he is up again, so we will comply. Did he get a list to anyone? I have sturm's pick ready once that hour is up. I also have Red's list.

 

[pitseleh]

Fredrickson is a great pick. I think he's good enough to be a second line center (albeit a lower end one) in the draft.

 

[VanIslander]

396 - Wisent - Anyang Halla - ON THE CLOCK (for 30 minutes more, as per his instruction)

397 - Evil Speaker & Sturminator - Boston Bruins (GBC has list)
398 - Kyle McMahon - Hampton Roads Admirals (seventieslord has list)
399 - Reds4Life- Trinec Steelers (GBC has list)
400 - ChampagneWishes - Killarney Country Bear Jamboree
401 - Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
402 - GodBlessCanada & raleh - New Westminster Bruins (GBC is around)
403 - ToskaLOL - Glace Bay Miners
404 - nik jr. - lada togliatti
405 - Nalyd Psycho - Minnesota Fighting Saints