Confirmed with Link: Alex Chiasson traded for Patrick Sieloff

[Micklebot]

He had a list of teams he was willing to go to if it gets out what those 10 teams were that lowers his value big time.

How so.

I mean, if it gets out that 9 of those 10 teams can't fit him onto the roster, sure, but that's a far larger threat in the offseason. GMs aren't dumb though, most had a pretty good idea what teams Spezza would have had on his list. It's entirely possible that they already new, or suspected what his list looked like. That and there's always the possibility that he could be convinced to add teams as the deadline approaches. It might be far easier to convince Spezza to go to Nashville from Feb to early Jun than to convince his family to move there for a year minimum.

 

[Langdon Alger]

It's a very happy day for this Ottawa Senators fan because I am never going to have to see Alex Chiasson in an Ottawa Senators uniform again. Kudos to Pierre Dorion for getting more than a roll of tape for this overpaid, underachiever. Alex Chiasson is now the Calgary Flames problem. As he leaves Ottawa, I just have one sentiment, good riddance.



I don't really feel this way, but credit to anyone who gets the reference

 

[Hale The Villain]

I'll give the guy credit for working his butt off when he was on the ice. Still didn't make me like him enough to want to keep him for next season. Was just too boring. Everytime he stepped on the ice you knew nothing was going to happen. The opposition probably wasn't going to score, and it was painfully obvious Chiasson wouldn't either. The offensive zone penalties didn't help too.

Glad he's gone. Sieloff probably won't be an NHLer, but if he can help Bingo in any significant way, it's a good trade.

 

[Hutz]

Meh, I'd have been fine with him coming back for one last chance to prove something. Not too bothered seeing him move on either.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Unless sieloff is someone Dorian and crew reaaaallly wanted (which I'm sure he will say) why not let chiasson just go to FA and sign someone you do really want.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

@Larionov if we kept Spezza that long, players like Zibanejad and Turris would not have had the extra opportunity to develop as top 2 centers.

I also think the return would have been minimally better. No one was giving up 1st round picks in 2015, because all GMs knew how deep the draft was. Maybe would have gotten a better prospect than Guptill, or an extra prospect... Meh.

Time to trade him was the deadline before the summer we did. But Murray thought he and hemsky were gonna bring us to the promise land.

Also. I liked guptill more than I liked chiasson.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

How so.

I mean, if it gets out that 9 of those 10 teams can't fit him onto the roster, sure, but that's a far larger threat in the offseason. GMs aren't dumb though, most had a pretty good idea what teams Spezza would have had on his list. It's entirely possible that they already new, or suspected what his list looked like. That and there's always the possibility that he could be convinced to add teams as the deadline approaches. It might be far easier to convince Spezza to go to Nashville from Feb to early Jun than to convince his family to move there for a year minimum.

Spezza asked for a trade in the summer. It wasn't the first time he had asked for a trade. Do you honestly think he'd be willing to do the Sens a favor at the trade deadline after dealing with months of speculation and BS from the city and media? Not a chance.

 

[BonkTastic]

Also. I liked guptill more than I liked chiasson.

Are we talking as a person, here? Like, Alex Guptill is more likable as a human being, in a social setting, that you could go have a beer with or shoot some skeeball or something?

Because as bad a hockey player as Chiasson is, he's ten times the player Guptill could ever hope to be.

If Chiasson's game is a mere dumpster fire, Guptill's game is "Triple Chernobyl".

 

[Micklebot]

Spezza asked for a trade in the summer. It wasn't the first time he had asked for a trade. Do you honestly think he'd be willing to do the Sens a favor at the trade deadline after dealing with months of speculation and BS from the city and media? Not a chance.

All reports were that the relationship was very amicable. Spezza gave his list and wanted to find a trade within those teams which is fine.

If we tried to move him at the deadline, he'd have 60 extra games worth of information upon which to decide who he'd accept a trade to. Nashville, for example, had just missed the playoffs two years running. It's no surprise he was unwilling to waive his NTC to add them to the list of 10 during the offseason. By the deadline though, and under new HC Laviolette, they looked like an ideal fit for Spezza. Offensive system? Check. Great puck moving D? Check. Solid team defense to cover up any high risk plays gone bad? Check. Elite goal scoring winger? Check. Lacking an elite offensive center? Check. Looking to make a deep playoff run? Check. If given the choice in Feb 2015, do you think Spezza would still have preferred a move to Dallas, who were having a terrible season, over Nashville who looked like one of the leagues elite?

Basically, Spezza submits his list, and then after 60 games, some additional teams look more appealing than they did in July. Teams on his list that now look far less appealing however are still on his list, so too bad for him.

I'm not sure why some want to cast Spezza as the villain here. He didn't really do anything to deserve that.

Anyways, the point is there were other options with their own pro's and con's. This trade was very different than say the Heatley trade where we were stuck dealing with 1 team and alternative was a toxic environment. Spezza was still well liked, and there's no reason to believe he would have sulked had he not been traded. If anything, he was trying to do Ottawa a favour by letting them get assets back instead of stringing them along until FA and walking as a UFA.

 

[Hutz]

Unless sieloff is someone Dorian and crew reaaaallly wanted (which I'm sure he will say) why not let chiasson just go to FA and sign someone you do really want.

I disagree. Unless we're approaching the contract max something > nothing. Hey maybe he ends up sucking in Bingo this year, then send him to the ECHL and next year we just don't qualify him and let him walk, like we'd have done with Chiasson anyway. There's really no reason not to do it. We can still easily go after someone we want in FA. I don't seriously believe this is the NHL d-man Dorion wants to acquire, he's a prospect who could still turn into an NHL player one day - or (more likely) will not.

 

[jason2020]

Micklebot

When players have a list they have to much control where they can go if Ottawa kept him Spezza could have made that list smaller.

 

[Micklebot]

Are we talking as a person, here? Like, Alex Guptill is more likable as a human being, in a social setting, that you could go have a beer with or shoot some skeeball or something?

Because as bad a hockey player as Chiasson is, he's ten times the player Guptill could ever hope to be.

If Chiasson's game is a mere dumpster fire, Guptill's game is "Triple Chernobyl".

Chiasson's game was more like driving through the prairies. Flat, boring, and nothing happens.

Not having actually watched Guptil at all, Could Guptil's game be better describe as driving through tornado alley? Constant threat of massive destruction?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

All reports were that the relationship was very amicable. Spezza gave his list and wanted to find a trade within those teams which is fine.

If we tried to move him at the deadline, he'd have 60 extra games worth of information upon which to decide who he'd accept a trade to. Nashville, for example, had just missed the playoffs two years running. It's no surprise he was unwilling to waive his NTC to add them to the list of 10 during the offseason. By the deadline though, and under new HC Laviolette, they looked like an ideal fit for Spezza. Offensive system? Check. Great puck moving D? Check. Solid team defense to cover up any high risk plays gone bad? Check. Elite goal scoring winger? Check. Lacking an elite offensive center? Check. Looking to make a deep playoff run? Check. If given the choice in Feb 2015, do you think Spezza would still have preferred a move to Dallas, who were having a terrible season, over Nashville who looked like one of the leagues elite?

Basically, Spezza submits his list, and then after 60 games, some additional teams look more appealing than they did in July. Teams on his list that now look far less appealing however are still on his list, so too bad for him.

I'm not sure why some want to cast Spezza as the villain here. He didn't really do anything to deserve that.

Anyways, the point is there were other options with their own pro's and con's. This trade was very different than say the Heatley trade where we were stuck dealing with 1 team and alternative was a toxic environment. Spezza was still well liked, and there's no reason to believe he would have sulked had he not been traded. If anything, he was trying to do Ottawa a favour by letting them get assets back instead of stringing them along until FA and walking as a UFA.

Not really making Spezza the villain here. Think about it from his perspective. He has been "iffy" with Ottawa for a little while (has asked for a trade before). So, it's not like this was an out of the blue thing. It was simmering for a while. Can you imagine what it would've been like for him at the rink and in the city having people asking questions every day? Possible booing? And what if he has a slump or gets hurt....that might scare off some teams.

Spezza just wanted to move on, not linger in no-mans land for half a year waiting for a trade. Having the team drag its feet would've caused a lot of animosity to develop.

 

[Micklebot]

Micklebot

When players have a list they have to much control where they can go if Ottawa kept him Spezza could have made that list smaller.

Once his list is submitted, he can only expand it by waiving the NTC. He can't make it smaller. That's the whole point of the list, to give the team something they can work with without of the threat of the player changing his mind.

Not exactly sure when his list had to be submitted but I believe it was prior to free agency, and would run the season until the next offseason.

 

[BonkTastic]

Nashville, for example, had just missed the playoffs two years running. It's no surprise he was unwilling to waive his NTC to add them to the list of 10 during the offseason. By the deadline though, and under new HC Laviolette, they looked like an ideal fit for Spezza. Offensive system? Check. Great puck moving D? Check. Solid team defense to cover up any high risk plays gone bad? Check. Elite goal scoring winger? Check. Lacking an elite offensive center? Check. Looking to make a deep playoff run? Check. If given the choice in Feb 2015, do you think Spezza would still have preferred a move to Dallas, who were having a terrible season, over Nashville who looked like one of the leagues elite?

Except by the trade deadline, Nashville would have already used all of the assets they were willing to give us for Spezza to Pittsburgh in the James Neal trade, so even if Spezza waited and decided that Nashville was an OK place to end up after all, Nashville has already spent the "Spezza" assets, and we'd still be stuck negotiating for a crap package to him.

 

[Micklebot]

Not really making Spezza the villain here. Think about it from his perspective. He has been "iffy" with Ottawa for a little while (has asked for a trade before). So, it's not like this was an out of the blue thing. It was simmering for a while. Can you imagine what it would've been like for him at the rink and in the city having people asking questions every day? Possible booing? And what if he has a slump or gets hurt....that might scare off some teams.

Spezza just wanted to move on, not linger in no-mans land for half a year waiting for a trade. Having the team drag its feet would've caused a lot of animosity to develop.

Would he have preferred an offseason trade? Sure. But to suggest he wouldn't understand why a team might want to hold off until a more reasonable offer was made, and hold a grudge because of it to me is casting him in a negative light. You're suggesting (imo) that Spezza would act irrationally and in spite to the team because it wasn't willing to accept a poor offer.

What I'm suggesting is that come the deadline, we'd still have the same 10 teams, and he might look favourable upon teams not originally on his list. Nashville for example would be more appealing to him. It's not him doing us a favour at all, it's him having a much better idea of how the various teams across the league have shaped up, and how he might fit in.

 

[Micklebot]

Except by the trade deadline, Nashville would have already used all of the assets they were willing to give us for Spezza to Pittsburgh in the James Neal trade, so even if Spezza waited and decided that Nashville was an OK place to end up after all, Nashville has already spent the "Spezza" assets, and we'd still be stuck negotiating for a crap package to him.

A package of 2015 draft picks? Nashville used up it's 2014 picks and Hornqvist. They still had a glut of Dmen, and 2015 picks. Remember, they had yet to acquire RYJO, and likely wouldn't have had they acquired Spezza, so they could have thrown a package of Ellis or Ekholm with picks and kept Jones.

Edit: they moved Olli Jokinen, Brendan Leipsic, and 2015 1st round pick for Franson and Santorelli at the deadline, and Derik Roy just prior to the deadline then in Jan made the Jone/RyJo swap. They clearly had assets they were wiling to move.


I used Nsh as an example of how Spezza might waive for a team not included in his list, I stand by that. I also think they had the assets to make it happen if they wanted to. They didn't need to move the same assets as they used for Neal to make it work.

Anyways, the point was never that Ottawa should have waited till the deadline, just that is was very much a viable option. It's revisionist history to suggest that they should have, but it's completely disingenuous to suggest that they had no option but to trade him that offseason. Both routes had their own pro's and con's, and while I would have waited at the time, it certainly wasn't a slam dunk decision. I'm still very happy with Paul, so at least there's that.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Would he have preferred an offseason trade? Sure. But to suggest he wouldn't understand why a team might want to hold off until a more reasonable offer was made, and hold a grudge because of it to me is casting him in a negative light. You're suggesting (imo) that Spezza would act irrationally and in spite to the team because it wasn't willing to accept a poor offer.

What I'm suggesting is that come the deadline, we'd still have the same 10 teams, and he might look favourable upon teams not originally on his list. Nashville for example would be more appealing to him. It's not him doing us a favour at all, it's him having a much better idea of how the various teams across the league have shaped up, and how he might fit in.

It's not about holding a grudge or acting irrationally, it's about being fed up with waiting and putting up with whatever ******** would happen in Ottawa for those several months. Personally, I think that is very rational....it's difficult to sit there in limbo for several months, especially as a professional athlete with a short career (compared to the rest of us mere mortals).

 

[Micklebot]

It's not about holding a grudge or acting irrationally, it's about being fed up with waiting and putting up with whatever ******** would happen in Ottawa for those several months. Personally, I think that is very rational....it's difficult to sit there in limbo for several months, especially as a professional athlete with a short career (compared to the rest of us mere mortals).

The irrational part would be not taking a trade out of a situation that you think would be negative (staying in Ottawa) despite it (trade to Nsh or other team not on his list that improved) being a great fit just because 8 months ago he didn't think it would be a great fit and in the mean time crappy Ottawa media was it's normal self. That's pretty much the definition of being irrational and spiteful, he'd be cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

[trentmccleary]

Except by the trade deadline, Nashville would have already used all of the assets they were willing to give us for Spezza to Pittsburgh in the James Neal trade, so even if Spezza waited and decided that Nashville was an OK place to end up after all, Nashville has already spent the "Spezza" assets, and we'd still be stuck negotiating for a crap package to him.

And Spezza would've been hurt at the trade deadline, we wouldn't have been able to trade him for anything at all and he'd walk as a UFA that summer.

 

[Xspyrit]

It still bugs me that after being burned on a small sample size player in Cory Conacher that Murray would turn around and make the same mistake with Chiasson.

It means that NHL Teams should never try to acquire prospects or young players?

So it was a mistake to acquire Kyle Turris and Ben Bishop then

Lightning fans may soon feel that same pain only a whole lot worse. Stamkos for nothing - ouch!

Ton of teams lose good players for nothing every year... Looks like LA just lost Milan Lucic for nothing. Devils lost Zach Parise in the past, Preds lost Ryan Suter... we could make a very long list...

Actually, BM has been very good with asset management... When did he let go somebody like this for nothing? Volchenkov? Gonchar? Even the never satisfied Sens fans did agree that it was time to let them go...

Reality is we didn't even lose Spezza for nothing, even though some act like we did. We got Chiasson (even though an overall disappointment he was a decent bottom-6 player for certain stretches and with untapped potential), a 2nd (drafted Gabriel Gagne but MOST importantly NICK PAUL, who will be a good NHL player.

...But you never win a trade when you deal a guy like that. We did okay in the deal

You are right, we did okay BECAUSE Spezza made it clear he was not going to sign with the Sens, so we were going to lose him for nothing

It's frustrating that so many people refuse to understand that simple notion AND also the fact that Spezza nixed the deal to Nashville, which was the best we got for him. The best deal that Spezza didn't refuse was to Dallas, Ottawa did what they could according to the context.

There was another option - keep Spezza until the trade deadline, and move him then. Yes, you would have had to put up with 3/4 of a season of an unhappy player but he would have been a MOTIVATED unhappy player, looking to show well for a new team and contract. Teams overpay at the deadline - heck, look at what the Jets got for Ladd, who is two notches below Spezza as a player. We would have received better offers for Spezza at the deadline than we did in July. It's over now, but the handling and trading of Spezza was one of Bryan Murray's worst moves as our GM.

OK I guess everyone is entitled to his opinion...

Spezza was unhappy and he was for years, he just got tired to be the scapegoat so he decided he wanted a fresh start somewhere else and it was his right, as a free human being.

After that, I don't think anyone in the management and in the room wanted to deal with that situation ALL year, and like FQL said, if he got his yearly injury, we get nothing. I don't think the difference with the gambling of a better return at the deadline and the actual return was worth all the trouble, but i guess it's my opinion

All Cameron did was play the plug what are you talking about.

I am not saying he didn't play, but apparently according to a conversation with Chiasson's cousin, Alex was unhappy in Ottawa and didn't see eye to eye with Cameron. Playing at a high level like the NHL is a lot about the mental game, and if you are not in a "positive environnement" for yourself, it plays against you. I see the situation a bit like the Colin Greening situation, who went to score 15 points (7g, 8a) in 30 games for the Leafs. Not bad for somebody who "shouldn't play another game in the NHL", like some have stated.

I personally always found the Spezza deal more frustrating because of how we also got taken to the cleaners on the Ryan deal. Thank god for the Turris deal :handclap.

ok what now?

Ryan : 229 63 95 158 pts
Silfverberg : 215 43 58 101 pts

Noesen is unfortunately a bust and Nick Ritchie doesn't look like a world beater. Upgrading a 3rd liner for a top-6 forward is very expensive and we didn't pay a king's ramson for Ryan, so that's a quantity for quality deal we should look forward to do everyday

Funny that someone could see it as "got taken to the cleaners"

Except for the fact Murray was offered Ryan Callahan and Derek Stepan for Spezza and Neil but Murray declined because we would lose too much "leadership."

Even if this was a real "fact", it certainly was not in the same context, aka same season, trade request, 1 year before UFA, injury, etc.

 

[Micklebot]

It means that NHL Teams should never try to acquire prospects or young players?

So it was a mistake to acquire Kyle Turris and Ben Bishop then



Ton of teams lose good players for nothing every year... Looks like LA just lost Milan Lucic for nothing. Devils lost Zach Parise in the past, Preds lost Ryan Suter... we could make a very long list...

Actually, BM has been very good with asset management... When did he let go somebody like this for nothing? Volchenkov? Gonchar? Even the never satisfied Sens fans did agree that it was time to let them go...

Reality is we didn't even lose Spezza for nothing, even though some act like we did. We got Chiasson (even though an overall disappointment he was a decent bottom-6 player for certain stretches and with untapped potential), a 2nd (drafted Gabriel Gagne but MOST importantly NICK PAUL, who will be a good NHL player.



You are right, we did okay BECAUSE Spezza made it clear he was not going to sign with the Sens, so we were going to lose him for nothing

It's frustrating that so many people refuse to understand that simple notion AND also the fact that Spezza nixed the deal to Nashville, which was the best we got for him. The best deal that Spezza didn't refuse was to Dallas, Ottawa did what they could according to the context.



OK I guess everyone is entitled to his opinion...

Spezza was unhappy and he was for years, he just got tired to be the scapegoat so he decided he wanted a fresh start somewhere else and it was his right, as a free human being.

After that, I don't think anyone in the management and in the room wanted to deal with that situation ALL year, and like FQL said, if he got his yearly injury, we get nothing. I don't think the difference with the gambling of a better return at the deadline and the actual return was worth all the trouble, but i guess it's my opinion



I am not saying he didn't play, but apparently according to a conversation with Chiasson's cousin, Alex was unhappy in Ottawa and didn't see eye to eye with Cameron. Playing at a high level like the NHL is a lot about the mental game, and if you are not in a "positive environnement" for yourself, it plays against you. I see the situation a bit like the Colin Greening situation, who went to score 15 points (7g, 8a) in 30 games for the Leafs. Not bad for somebody who "shouldn't play another game in the NHL", like some have stated.



ok what now?

Ryan : 229 63 95 158 pts
Silfverberg : 215 43 58 101 pts

Noesen is unfortunately a bust and Nick Ritchie doesn't look like a world beater. Upgrading a 3rd liner for a top-6 forward is very expensive and we didn't pay a king's ramson for Ryan, so that's a quantity for quality deal we should look forward to do everyday

Funny that someone could see it as "got taken to the cleaners"



Even if this was a real "fact", it certainly was not in the same context, aka same season, trade request, 1 year before UFA, injury, etc.

It's hard to argue that contending teams holding onto their UFA for a last attempt at the cup is the same as a bubble team. The devils with Parise, LA with Lucic, Preds with Suter, all teams wanting to contend for the cup. Very different from Ottawa.

The truth, as you mention, is that Spezza had made it know going well back that he wasn't happy, and we opted to move him when his value was lowest for fear of it dipping even further or losing him for nothing. But make no mistake, the return was poor, and everyone agreed on that at the time. Many, many teams get better returns on UFA, so it's not like Spezza's return was guaranteed to be worse had we held onto him.

There aren't many moves by Murray I consider worse than his handling of Spezza. Cowen for sure, and perhaps Alfie (the last guy we lost for nothing btw). The fact is, Spezza should have been a valuable asset for us, but he allowed it to dwindle in value, and took the safe option rather than try and get the best option. Sometimes, safe is the right choice, but I'm not convinced safe was in the Sens best interest at the time. Remember when Ottawa would take the riskier path, locking out Yashin for a full year rather than re-negotiate his contract? Trading a star center in Yashin at the height of his career? Sometimes safe is death, and imo, the way we handled Spezza was safe, and we paid for it.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I fully acknowledge that there were risks of waiting to trade him, and that Chiasson could have turned out better (though the writing was on the wall that he wasn't going to be great), but I thought at the time it was worth the risk, and stand by that.

 

[Sentron5000]

It's hard to argue that contending teams holding onto their UFA for a last attempt at the cup is the same as a bubble team. The devils with Parise, LA with Lucic, Preds with Suter, all teams wanting to contend for the cup. Very different from Ottawa.

The truth, as you mention, is that Spezza had made it know going well back that he wasn't happy, and we opted to move him when his value was lowest for fear of it dipping even further or losing him for nothing. But make no mistake, the return was poor, and everyone agreed on that at the time. Many, many teams get better returns on UFA, so it's not like Spezza's return was guaranteed to be worse had we held onto him.

There aren't many moves by Murray I consider worse than his handling of Spezza. Cowen for sure, and perhaps Alfie (the last guy we lost for nothing btw). The fact is, Spezza should have been a valuable asset for us, but he allowed it to dwindle in value, and took the safe option rather than try and get the best option. Sometimes, safe is the right choice, but I'm not convinced safe was in the Sens best interest at the time. Remember when Ottawa would take the riskier path, locking out Yashin for a full year rather than re-negotiate his contract? Trading a star center in Yashin at the height of his career? Sometimes safe is death, and imo, the way we handled Spezza was safe, and we paid for it.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I fully acknowledge that there were risks of waiting to trade him, and that Chiasson could have turned out better (though the writing was on the wall that he wasn't going to be great), but I thought at the time it was worth the risk, and stand by that.

Do you think this is all on Murray though? Don't forget part of his mandate was compete while rebuilding. I don't think he ever got a full mandate (or permission) to tear it down completely. As much as publicly they said they were rebuilding, I think internally they always thought they could still be competitive and make the playoffs. A rebuild is more than trading out a core player (Fisher), a useful player (Kelly) and scraps.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Are we talking as a person, here? Like, Alex Guptill is more likable as a human being, in a social setting, that you could go have a beer with or shoot some skeeball or something?

Because as bad a hockey player as Chiasson is, he's ten times the player Guptill could ever hope to be.

If Chiasson's game is a mere dumpster fire, Guptill's game is "Triple Chernobyl".

I should have said. "I hated chiasson more than I hated guptill.

 

[BonkTastic]

I should have said. "I hated chiasson more than I hated guptill.

Ah, ok.

Gotcha.