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Adam Fox, Cale Makar or Miro Heiskanen?

Who would you take right now?

  • Total voters
    795
Spotty 2 Hotty

Spotty 2 Hotty

Special teams, special plays, special players
Feb 28, 2008
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The S5 said:
Pay wall and the Athletic is mostly a rag.
I question the analytics that say he isn't at the very top of puck moving D. The guy is an amazing puck mover anywhere on the ice.
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I don't have a sub to The Athletic either, but found this on Twitter earlier, which I assume is what the other poster was referring to.



I have no idea what their methodology is based on, though I also don't know/care about all the fancy stats nonsense anyways, so just thought I'd at least share this if ya hadn't seen it.
 
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Algernop Kreider

Algernop Kreider

Ant strength
Mar 9, 2014
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I thought the puck moving article was interesting. The methodology is pretty simplistic and doesn't fully capture who is the "best" at moving the puck, but still interesting.

The "Defensive zone" measure is just an average of the players' percentile ranks at total number of controlled exits and the percentage of that defenseman d zone plays that lead to an exit. The Neutral Zone and Offensive measures were similar but for zone entries and passes across the slot.
 
The S5

The S5

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Jul 27, 2017
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Blackout Restriction said:
I don't have a sub to The Athletic either, but found this on Twitter earlier, which I assume is what the other poster was referring to.



I have no idea what their methodology is based on, though I also don't know/care about all the fancy stats nonsense anyways, so just thought I'd at least share this if ya hadn't seen it.
Click to expand...


Thanks.
You are right, the fancy stats don't tell the entire story. Not even sure what they are measuring, but, I don't need to know because on most nights, Fox is the best player on the ice.
 
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Islay1989

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Feb 24, 2020
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The S5 said:
Thanks.
You are right, the fancy stats don't tell the entire story. Not even sure what they are measuring, but, I don't need to know because on most nights, Fox is the best player on the ice.
Click to expand...
So everything that doesn't support your narrative based on watching solely Fox is bunk?
 
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The S5

The S5

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Jul 27, 2017
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Islay1989 said:
So everything that doesn't support your narrative based on watching solely Fox is bunk?
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I addressed advanced stats and how they don't tell the whole story. Fox is still near the top, but I don't draw anything from the chart.
No, I don't watch Fox exclusively. I do watch as much hockey as my schedule allows and what I can say is its rare when Fox isn't making great plays moving the puck up the ice.
It's also rare when I see another D making the kind of plays that Fox does regularly. Sure, some guys are more dynamic and make for better highlights, but Fox is the complete package.
Don't be a hater.
 
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Islay1989

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Feb 24, 2020
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The S5 said:
I addressed advanced stats and how they don't tell the whole story. Fox is still near the top, but I don't draw anything from the chart.
No, I don't watch Fox exclusively. I do watch as much hockey as my schedule allows and what I can say is its rare when Fox isn't making great plays moving the puck up the ice.
It's also rare when I see another D making the kind of plays that Fox does regularly. Sure, some guys are more dynamic and make for better highlights, but Fox is the complete package.
Don't be a hater.
Click to expand...

Your post says literally nothing. Fox can be a great puck-mover and not at the very top at the same time. You anointed him to be at the top based on what exactly? Him being the best Ranger? Does that mean he would be the best Pred? The best Av? The best Cap? The best Bolt? Utter nonsense.
 
tucker3434

tucker3434

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Even if you don't watch Makar, it takes like 10 seconds to look up some common defensive stats and see that Makar is towards the top of the league. xGA, SA, takeaways, etc. all look pretty good. I don't care what the usage is, you don't get there by being poor defensively. I think people are just grasping at straws since there are no basic stats for the defensive side of the game. You obviously can't knock his offense and the hard numbers he puts up there, so hit him on his defense which can't be seen from the basic player card on NHL.com.
 
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rangersfansince08

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Oct 8, 2019
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majormajor said:
When you are dealing with one of the most skilled finishers in the game, just ignore xGF and use actual goal results. We all know Makar is going to outperform his xGF so don't bother with it (whether it is top tier or not).

Like what is Ovechkin's xGF/60? Should we even care? No.
Click to expand...

Isn't it a team stat?

Yea clearly he is going to continue shooting 18.8% and end up with 41 goals in 71 games.
 
The S5

The S5

Registered User
Jul 27, 2017
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Islay1989 said:
Your post says literally nothing. Fox can be a great puck-mover and not at the very top at the same time. You anointed him to be at the top based on what exactly? Him being the best Ranger? Does that mean he would be the best Pred? The best Av? The best Cap? The best Bolt? Utter nonsense.
Click to expand...

Call it what ever you like, but there aren't many I would take over Fox in transition. That's my opinion. You may not like it, but I'm pretty sure he'll be in contention for the Norris and it won't be based solely on points. The guy excels all over the ice. Same can't be said for some of his competition. Cope.
 
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Mobiandi

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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Heiskanen dragged a very average Stars team to the cup finals with Klingberg.

Makar and Fox just don't have that ability.
 
notDatsyuk

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
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User9992 said:
Avalanche defense is awful. Allows shit tons of goals every single game.
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The Crypto Guy said:
Isn't Makar a part of that defense?
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Most of the discussion seems to be about offence rather than defence. Personally, I think defence is more important when assessing defencemen, and as far as defensive play goes, Adam Pelech is far better than either Fox or Makar.

But talking team defence (as though Makar was the only defenceman on the team) makes team offence as relevant, and probably more so, as offence seems to be the main point.

Rangers are scoring 0.38 more goals per game than they are allowing. Avs are scoring 0.7 more.

If you want to blame Makar for the Avs' allowing more goals, you should also credit him with their scoring more, and also for their better GF - GA.
 
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rangersfansince08

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Is the argument that Fox beat up on the same teams dead yet? What about Cale Makar being injured just being a fluke?
 

QJL

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
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avsfan9 said:
Fox’s defense is overrated as much as Makars is underrated. Devon Toews is just as impressive as both this year
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Explain on Fox… every single metric backs up his exceptional defense. It’s even more obvious watching the games that he’s the best defensive defender on the ice every night.
 

rangersfansince08

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Oct 8, 2019
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Machinehead said:
Not to mention Fox was the best player for either team by far in that mess.

The Rangers were -7 in that series and +2 with Fox on the ice.
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Yup. But Miro Stans are sure Fox and Makar will never have a playoff run like Miro did. Because we all know both Fox and Makar are both 2 years from retirement. And there's nothing impressive about Makar having 31 its in 35 playoff games since Miro had 26 in 27.
 

rangersfansince08

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Oct 8, 2019
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wetcoast said:
It was never an argument for last year it was a matter of statistical fact.
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Context matters. And every player has better numbers against bad teams and Fox had no control over playing the same 7 teams over and over like nobody else did the same. This board was slobbering over Makar having 9 pts in 4 games recently against bottom feeders.
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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rangersfansince08 said:
Context matters. And every player has better numbers against bad teams and Fox had no control over playing the same 7 teams over and over like nobody else did the same. This board was slobbering over Makar having 9 pts in 4 games recently against bottom feeders.
Click to expand...

Yes context matters and Fox beat up on 3 really weak teams last year in an unbalanced schedule and Makar missed significant time and the Norris race was still pretty close.

This yearFox is scoring more on the PP and that will help him in the counting stats but his PDO is also very high and a slight regression will probably take place.

The race for the Norris this year is also very crowded and there are still a lot games to be played.
 
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