Adam Fox, Cale Makar or Miro Heiskanen?

[notDatsyuk]

I've never once watched Fox play and thought to myself wow that guy is a top 5 defensive defenseman in the world. Don't be ridiculous.

He's good one-on-one against the puck carrier (had a nice takeaway last night), but otherwise his positioning isn't great.

Strikes me as a guy who got by on offence so much that he never had to learn proper defence, like a fair number of players. If he's as smart as people say, he'll learn.

 

[OKR]

It’s baffling to me that posters go on multiple page arguments over players they quite clearly haven’t watched.

 

[NyQuil]

Makar isn't even the best defenceman on his own team.

 

[Dominance]

Makar isn't even the best defenceman on his own team.

That’s simultaneously true with the fact he’s still clearly the best player in this poll.

 

[NyQuil]

That’s simultaneously true with the fact he’s still clearly the best player in this poll.

Tough to win a Norris when you're splitting the vote like that.

 

[Dominance]

Tough to win a Norris when you're splitting the vote like that.

True. This might have to be Makar’s year before Toews starts getting more recognition.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Somebody in the NHL isn't doing their job right.

I watched the Arizona/Rangers game, figuring maybe I'd finally see this spectacular Fox.

Meh. Out of position on Arizona's shortie, picked up a kind of nothing assist on Zib's goal, and was one the ice for their other PP goal. A minus 1, but a decent if not great game.

Then I looked at the stats on NHL.com, and he's a +2?

All three goals he was on the ice for were on NY powerplays. Am I crazy? So I looked at the play-by-play. Those three goals all show he was on the ice, and all show six Rangers and five Coyotes. But they also say all three were at even strength. Somebody boo-booed.

Admittedly, I do think Fox has been off these past couple of games, but him being off is still a good player lol. That's indicative of his talent.

If you're not a Rangers fan, or don't watch a lot of Rangers games at least - it's easy to dismiss him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Admittedly, I do think Fox has been off these past couple of games, but him being off is still a good player lol. That's indicative of his talent.

If you're not a Rangers fan, or don't watch a lot of Rangers games at least - it's easy to dismiss him.

I'm certainly not dismissing him, but I do think his offence is better than his defence, which I haven't been all that impressed with.

I think Wednesday's was the tenth Rangers game I've seen this year.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

Moritz all the way!

 

[wetcoast]

Am I missing something or is Fox not the Norris trophy winner? Are HF polls more important?

Makar missed 12 of the 56 games last season and was still very close to Fox in Norris voting.

Some people are trying to create a false equivliancy with the Norris win in an unbalanced season.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Just so everyone is clear, Fox’s +/-, which is one of the more worthless stats around, is listed as a 0 for a game against Arizona that supposedly he was boosted with extra stats for. The hate is truly bizarre.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Makar missed 12 of the 56 games last season and was still very close to Fox in Norris voting.

Some people are trying to create a false equivliancy with the Norris win in an unbalanced season.

You tried to claim consensus on an issue from a HF poll. There’s no false equivalency when the Norris voters just last season didn’t see it the way you claim is so obvious and were chiding people for not viewing it.

 

[wetcoast]

You tried to claim consensus on an issue from a HF poll. There’s no false equivalency when the Norris voters just last season didn’t see it the way you claim is so obvious and were chiding people for not viewing it.

Norris voters vote on a single season and with the unbalanced schedule and Makar missing 12 of 56 games he was still close to winning the Norris.

Most people here seem to agree with that.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Norris voters vote on a single season and with the unbalanced schedule and Makar missing 12 of 56 games he was still close to winning the Norris.

Most people here seem to agree with that.

How has Makar overcome all of that to be demonstrably better? If you are going to claim an award vote from last season doesn’t matter and chide those who disagree, which isn’t a small number, the onus is on you to explain why. Saying that members of this website prefer Makar doesn’t prove those wrong who don’t view it that way.

 

[wetcoast]

How has Makar overcome all of that to be demonstrably better? If you are going to claim an award vote from last season doesn’t matter and chide those who disagree, which isn’t a small number, the onus is on you to explain why. Saying that members of this website prefer Makar doesn’t prove those wrong who don’t view it that way.

No one is claiming that the award last year doesn't matter but it was also an unbalanced schedule and looking at the bigger picture of the last 3 years that's why I have Makar ahead.

Anyone looking at last season and seeing that if Makar hadn't been injured he would have been the Norris favorite right?

Fox is a great dman in todays NHL but let's not pretend that there aren't alot of great Dmen right now in the NHL.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Just so everyone is clear, Fox’s +/-, which is one of the more worthless stats around, is listed as a 0 for a game against Arizona that supposedly he was boosted with extra stats for. The hate is truly bizarre.

No hate. As I said, he was originally listed as +2, because the Rangers PP goals were originally shown as even strength. This was corrected.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Somebody in the NHL isn't doing their job right.

I watched the Arizona/Rangers game, figuring maybe I'd finally see this spectacular Fox.

Meh. Out of position on Arizona's shortie, picked up a kind of nothing assist on Zib's goal, and was one the ice for their other PP goal. A minus 1, but a decent if not great game.

Then I looked at the stats on NHL.com, and he's a +2?

All three goals he was on the ice for were on NY powerplays. Am I crazy? So I looked at the play-by-play. Those three goals all show he was on the ice, and all show six Rangers and five Coyotes. But they also say all three were at even strength. Somebody boo-booed.

Islander fan...shocking.

I don't think you understand hockey on any kind of a low level if you think he was out of position on that goal. He had to deal with a 2 on 1 by himself from the red-line and still did a good job and almost broke it up, it was a shit goal by the goalie and his teammates caused the defenseive breakdown leaving him on an island to deal with 2 players alone...you don't know what you're talking about with all due respect. Rewatch it yourself

 

[notDatsyuk]

Islander fan...shocking.

I don't think you understand hockey on any kind of a low level if you think he was out of position on that goal. He had to deal with a 2 on 1 by himself from the red-line and still did a good job and almost broke it up, it was a shit goal by the goalie and his teammates caused the defenseive breakdown leaving him on an island to deal with 2 players alone...you don't know what you're talking about with all due respect. Rewatch it yourself

I played goal for forty years, and defence for over sixty (and counting) and have coached both.

Please explain to me why the only defenceman back on a two-on-one is way over near the boards at the blueline, which is why the pass left the scorer wide open?

And I'm more of a Leafs fan, although also an Islanders, Habs, Red Wings, and Jets fan. Basically just a fan of good hockey.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Fox. He's better defensively than he is offensively and he's damn near the best defenseman in the league offensively.

 

[Maplebeasts]

I've never once watched Fox play and thought to myself wow that guy is a top 5 defensive defenseman in the world. Don't be ridiculous.

Maybe the problem is with your eye test. From my viewings and his stats I don't know how you could watch him and not think he is crazy elite defensively.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Maybe the problem is with your eye test. From my viewings and statistically I don't know how you could watch him and not think he is crazy elite defensively.

He's very good defensively of course. Just not a top 5 guy in the world imo.

 

[elitepete]

Fox is so much better than Makar defensively but fairly close offensively.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Fox is so much better than Makar defensively but fairly close offensively.

I haven't seen spectacular defence from either Fox or Makar.

Even strength time on ice so far this year averages 19:11 for Fox, 19:01 for Makar, and (since I'm a Leafs fan, 19:10 for Rielly). Very similar.

Makar has been on for 23 of 61 ES goals against, for an average of 37.7%. Fox 21 of 58, for 36.2%, and Rielly 19 of 54, for 35.1%. Again, very similar

How about Adam Pelech, who's supposed to be really good defensively? 18:50 ice time, on for 13 of 53, for 24.5%. That looks a lot better.

 

[tucker3434]

I haven't seen spectacular defence from either Fox or Makar.

Even strength time on ice so far this year averages 19:11 for Fox, 19:01 for Makar, and (since I'm a Leafs fan, 19:10 for Rielly). Very similar.

Makar has been on for 23 of 61 ES goals against, for an average of 37.7%. Fox 21 of 58, for 36.2%, and Rielly 19 of 54, for 35.1%. Again, very similar

How about Adam Pelech, who's supposed to be really good defensively? 18:50 ice time, on for 13 of 53, for 24.5%. That looks a lot better.

Makar has also had some really bad goaltending this year. His xGA is towards the top of the league. Overall, I don't see the defensive separation. I think people see Makar's highlights and just assume he's bad defensively.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

How about Adam Pelech, who's supposed to be really good defensively? 18:50 ice time, on for 13 of 53, for 24.5%. That looks a lot better.

Yeah but he also takes very few chances, plays in a D-first system. Not really surprising that his numbers would be better in that way. Plus he provides zero offense