Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXXV: Trotzyism in Action

[um]

Its kinda funny though that people say Ovechkin isn't a power forward because he doesn't fight, but Eric Lindros was pretty infamous for getting picked on, especially in the playoffs.

Russian Machine Never Breaks

 

[Hivemind]

Clifford and Nolan both played less than 10 minutes a game in the playoffs first off. But it seems to me you don't think Bissonette can play AT ALL despite encouraging underlying numbers.

If you really want to use the ice-time argument, you probably shouldn't use it in an argument to defend Bissonette. Especially not when you're narrowing it to playoff ice-time, where Biz Nasty's career total is barely over 12 minutes.

There are plenty of "goons" who can play at a respectable level like Brashear did.

I have no problem with adding useful hockey players that fight. I have a problem with using roster spots for players whos primary responsibility is fighting.

toe-to-toe with Philly. It seemed to me that the team went south after the Emery Holtby thing last year. Philly, on the other hand, went on a tear after that game.

Well, the Capitals won their next three games after that, so I'm not sure how you got that conclusion.

We had some guys drop their gloves but there was a curious lack of response to that incident that had long term effects.

Fighting, brawls etc can have a big effect on a team.
Or do you not agree?

Its funny you bring up Matt Hendricks who was a human punching bag. Watching him go after Rene Bourque and getting waxed sure fired me up.

Guys like him and Jay Beagle (Asham) should not have to fight. Oates didn't want Erskine fighting and Hunter didn't like Erskine at all.

I fell that you're dramatically overstating the importance of winning fights, and that on average you're going to get much more value from using that roster spot productively than you will by stashing an enforcer there.

If we don't want Tom Wilson answering the bell each time then we need a heavy. We were a much more fearsome team with Donald Brashear I felt.

If we don't want Tom Wilson answering the bell each time, then we tell him not to answer the bell each time. You don't need another heavy in order to do that.

Brashear didn't dissuade the Flyers from being the Flyers in the playoffs a few years back. And all he did the next post-season was get himself suspended. Apparently he didn't make the team fearsome enough to win anything then, either.

RE: DETROIT

As others stated Detroit was a perennial Pres trophy contender and always were winning games. Therefore less fights.

Because winning was so useful for the Capitals in avoiding fights in that aforementioned Flyers blowout? The Red Wings fought a mere 7 times last season. They're simply a franchise that doesn't value fighting, and tends to do pretty damn well without it.

When Rinaldo or Ryan White decide to elbow Backstrom in the head I don't think they'll shake in their boots if those guys are the only deterrent we have. Fighting isn't about fighting. It's about making these clowns think twice before they injure our guys. I don't want a team of character guys who are willing to get their faces bloodied in the name of righteousness. I want one big mean mofo who gives no sh*ts and exists only to deter the clowns around the league from injuring our star players.

Show me evidence that supports that. Having Deryk Engellend in the line-up didn't stop Thornton from absolutely mugging Orpik last season. Thornton himself didn't dissuade James Neal from kneeing Marchand five days before that. The Flyers' thugs didn't scare off Dmitry Orlov when he got suspended for boarding Brayden Schenn last year. Even John Scott didn't stop Rinaldo from targetting Ruhnwedel's head. If enforcers really were a deterrent, you think we'd see some deterrence.

 

[g00n]

There is no formula to completely prevent headunting. You try to "deter" it, which is not the same as preventing it entirely. And it is a fact of hockey that some players will run around looking to bang up star players. You don't want to allow that, and you also don't want your star players taken off the ice by the lesser player looking to fight them. So you sacrifice one pawn for another, and hope you win the fight and get some momentum. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but it addresses the problem for which it's designed.

It's really that simple.

 

[SDBondra]

Show me evidence that supports that. Having Deryk Engellend in the line-up didn't stop Thornton from absolutely mugging Orpik last season. Thornton himself didn't dissuade James Neal from kneeing Marchand five days before that. The Flyers' thugs didn't scare off Dmitry Orlov when he got suspended for boarding Brayden Schenn last year. Even John Scott didn't stop Rinaldo from targetting Ruhnwedel's head. If enforcers really were a deterrent, you think we'd see some deterrence.

Tell me what kind of evidence could possibly prove that having a goon on a roster has prevented Matt Cooke from removing his skate and performing a tracheotomy on some star player. It hasn't happened yet - so maybe that's because he was afraid of some ramifications. Is that proof? Just because I can't provide some kind of "negative consent" proof doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.

Derek Engelland and Shawn Thornton aren't the types of player I'm talking about. Those people are hockey players who can fight. I'm talking about having a bloodthirsty subhuman on our roster like Colton Orr who literally has so much hate in his heart that doesn't care about his own well-being. John Scott is closer to the mark as well. I don't know anything about the Rinaldo incident you're talking about but Rinaldo is the type of guy you need to take out right away when he starts acting up - because the things he does typically get him kicked out of games. If you don't have the right person on the ice when he's out there, there's really no deterrent. He doesn't care if he gets ejected or fined but I bet he would behave himself if we had a caged dog following him around the ice. That's the type of deterrent I want. If John Scott wasn't on the ice when he did whatever he did, then there's your answer. Zac Rinaldo is the worst kind of enemy. He has no self-respect. He has no sense of right and wrong. He's a dog and you must treat him like a dog. You must be there the very second he soils the carpet to stick his nose in it - otherwise he is incapable of understanding the concept of consequence.

I'm not advocating that the Capitals get dirtier or tougher - just that we cover our bases to deter cheap shots. We shouldn't ignore the fact that there are teams like Philly out there. Remember the Cold War? We averted Nuclear annihilation with the threat of nuclear annihilation. We need to have someone on our roster who is willing and capable of annihilating our opponents in order to deter our own annihilation. This is war, boys.

 

[g00n]

Tell me what kind of evidence could possibly prove that having a goon on a roster has prevented Matt Cooke from removing his skate and performing a tracheotomy on some star player. It hasn't happened yet - so maybe that's because he was afraid of some ramifications. Is that proof? Just because I can't provide some kind of "negative consent" proof doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.

Derek Engelland and Shawn Thornton aren't the types of player I'm talking about. Those people are hockey players who can fight. I'm talking about having a bloodthirsty subhuman on our roster like Colton Orr who literally has so much hate in his heart that doesn't care about his own well-being. John Scott is closer to the mark as well. I don't know anything about the Rinaldo incident you're talking about but Rinaldo is the type of guy you need to take out right away when he starts acting up - because the things he does typically get him kicked out of games. If you don't have the right person on the ice when he's out there, there's really no deterrent. He doesn't care if he gets ejected or fined but I bet he would behave himself if we had a caged dog following him around the ice. That's the type of deterrent I want. If John Scott wasn't on the ice when he did whatever he did, then there's your answer. Zac Rinaldo is the worst kind of enemy. He has no self-respect. He has no sense of right and wrong. He's a dog and you must treat him like a dog. You must be there the very second he soils the carpet to stick his nose in it - otherwise he is incapable of understanding the concept of consequence.

I'm not advocating that the Capitals get dirtier or tougher - just that we cover our bases to deter cheap shots. We shouldn't ignore the fact that there are teams like Philly out there. Remember the Cold War? We averted Nuclear annihilation with the threat of nuclear annihilation. We need to have someone on our roster who is willing and capable of annihilating our opponents in order to deter our own annihilation. This is war, boys.

Poetry. This deserves to be put to music.

 

[artilector]

Poetry. This deserves to be put to music.

Cause you are a damn g00n!

I want to participate in conversation, but I basically can't, because I don't think it's gonna matter either way. Just, if a goon arrives, please let it be for cheap, so he can sit on the bench quietly in playoffs.

 

[BobRouse]

Myst

I respect your points and your opinion but this is something thats a huge debate among fans of any team or the sport in general. Some like having a heavy enforcer and feel it serves an important role. Others feel that it doesn't.

Just don't get trapped in an elevator with Alan May and bring this topic up for your own health


What the Caps really need is a Bob Rouse clone. Rouse was vicious in his day. He fought and beat Probert, Wendel Clark, Joey Kocur, Jay Wells etc. His fight card was insane! He was ruthless clearing the crease, was a big dude, and an intense competitor who was angry. Very much like a less offensive version of Dave Manson.

He's like a better version of Erskine who is the closest comprable. But he could play in a top role shutdown role too as he proved in Toronto under Pat Burns.

To think we had Stevens, Hatcher (the young intimidating version), Rouse and Sheehy on our blue line at the same time.

 

[MiKE5889]

I'm not particularly for/against having a fighter on our roster. However one could create this hypotethical scenario in which you compare the likes of Biz Nasty and Beagle. Biz has been a decent posession guy for several seasons, as well as a decent PK guy. Same goes for Beagle. Considering that neither Biz nor Beagle would play any big minutes and the fact that both comes at cheap cap hits one could suggest that Biz would simply be a waste of a contract slot.

On the other hand one could argue that if the difference between Biz and Beagle is so small in the posession and PK categories, then why not sign Biz? If the difference between Biz and Beagle simply is that Biz is a better fighter and a tougher player, then why not waive/trade Beagle, slot Brown in as our 12:th forward and keep Biz around for the games where his playing style comes in handy?

Regardless of Biz signing in DC or not it has become quite obvious that the Caps would definently benefit from moving at least one of Beagle/Volpatti off the roster.

 

[Blades of Steel]

I'm not particularly for/against having a fighter on our roster. However one could create this hypotethical scenario in which you compare the likes of Biz Nasty and Beagle. Biz has been a decent posession guy for several seasons, as well as a decent PK guy. Same goes for Beagle. Considering that neither Biz nor Beagle would play any big minutes and the fact that both comes at cheap cap hits one could suggest that Biz would simply be a waste of a contract slot.

On the other hand one could argue that if the difference between Biz and Beagle is so small in the posession and PK categories, then why not sign Biz? If the difference between Biz and Beagle simply is that Biz is a better fighter and a tougher player, then why not waive/trade Beagle, slot Brown in as our 12:th forward and keep Biz around for the games where his playing style comes in handy?

Regardless of Biz signing in DC or not it has become quite obvious that the Caps would definently benefit from moving at least one of Beagle/Volpatti off the roster.

faceoffs

 

[Hivemind]

Tell me what kind of evidence could possibly prove that having a goon on a roster has prevented Matt Cooke from removing his skate and performing a tracheotomy on some star player. It hasn't happened yet - so maybe that's because he was afraid of some ramifications. Is that proof? Just because I can't provide some kind of "negative consent" proof doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.

You could certainly show something like the rate of cheap shots or inuries or suspendable actions being lower against teams with heavyweights in the line-up. Of course studies like this have been done, and the results do not support your position.

I went back over the last two years and looked at every team that was on the receiving end of a hit that resulted in a suspension, fine, or match penalty (I excluded match penalties that were later rescinded by the league, as well as any fines or suspensions for other incidents, including verbal abuse, hand gestures, etc.) and looked at whether or not they had fighter in the lineup on that night.

The results were not surprising. Of the 106 incidents since the start of the 2011-12 season that resulted in some sort of supplemental discipline from the league, 54 of them involved the team on the receiving end having a fighter dressed in the lineup that particular game. Fifty-two teams did not have a fighter dressed. The rate per game with an enforcer dressed was once every 36.9 games, and without an enforcer once every 36.1 games. Hardly a huge difference one way or the other, and it doesn’t really do much to suggest that enforcers really serve as any sort of a deterrent from other players doing something dumb.

http://regressing.deadspin.com/the-enforcer-fallacy-hockeys-fighting-specialists-don-1442618145

If it looks like you don't see a pattern, it's because there is none. I ran a correlation study between fighting majors taken and non-obstruction penalties drawn and the r^2 value came back 0.0257; non-obstruction penalties actually increased with fighting majors though there's hardly any correlation there.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...fighting-deter-other-nasty-business-in-hockey

Instead, in four of five seasons there was a positive correlation – meaning that teams with more fights suffered more injuries. Here are the correlations, with a negative number indicating teams with more fights having less injuries and a positive number indicating the opposite:

2008-09: +0.29

2009-10: -0.06

2010-11: +0.16

2011-12: +0.21

2012-13: +0.11

There’s absolutely nothing there to suggest that fighting majors deter injury; if anything, the data suggests that fighting more frequently increases the occurrence of injury. That makes a certain amount of sense, given intuitively that fighting is dangerous, that dressing fighters can prompt the opposing team to do the same, and that the reaction of most teams to extreme physical play is retaliation rather than turning the other cheek.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/20...d-the-new-era-of-the-one-dimensional-fighter/

Derek Engelland and Shawn Thornton aren't the types of player I'm talking about. Those people are hockey players who can fight. I'm talking about having a bloodthirsty subhuman on our roster like Colton Orr who literally has so much hate in his heart that doesn't care about his own well-being. John Scott is closer to the mark as well. I don't know anything about the Rinaldo incident you're talking about but Rinaldo is the type of guy you need to take out right away when he starts acting up - because the things he does typically get him kicked out of games. If you don't have the right person on the ice when he's out there, there's really no deterrent. He doesn't care if he gets ejected or fined but I bet he would behave himself if we had a caged dog following him around the ice. That's the type of deterrent I want. If John Scott wasn't on the ice when he did whatever he did, then there's your answer. Zac Rinaldo is the worst kind of enemy. He has no self-respect. He has no sense of right and wrong. He's a dog and you must treat him like a dog. You must be there the very second he soils the carpet to stick his nose in it - otherwise he is incapable of understanding the concept of consequence.

Having Colton Orr on the ice didn't prevent Hedman from taking liberties with Kadri last season.

John Scott was not on the ice for Rinaldo's headshot. Do you expect Buffalo to ice John Scott every shift that the Flyers put Rinaldo on the ice? Because that sounds like an easy thing for the other coach to abuse, something that Daryl Sutter has explicitly mentioned in the past ("taking advantage" of when the opponent's enforcer is out there). Stick Rinaldo out there with Giroux for a few shifts to force John Scott onto the ice, and take advantage.

Players like Rinaldo, Downie, and Cooke will be players those players whether you have enforcers or not. Chris Neil was there to take out Cooke, but that didn't prevent Cooke from stepping on Karlsson's achilles in the first place.

Beyond that, the way that Wilson played last season sounds an awful lot like the player you want on this team. Yet Wilson didn't act as a deterrent for Emery mugging Holtby or any other aspect of that bush league brawl.

 

[ReggietheSavage15]

Kadri popped Hedman pretty good. He can handle himself.

 

[HunterSThompson]

Maybe long term deterrence...

 

[SDBondra]

I think this is an area where there aren't meaningful stats to support either position and that's OK. "Fighting" or "major penalties" don't encapsulate goon deterrence. Even if there were stats, they would probably be even less useful than Corsi or Fenwick. Reaction to the Emery incident probably had more to do with Oates than it did the players. I don't know for sure. Myst, I appreciate that you want to see stats and proof and that you won't change your opinion until you get some kind of proof. I'm not trying to convince you. My opinion is that we need a deterrent to help protect our skill players.

 

[Ajax1995]

Biz has been a decent posession guy for several seasons, as well as a decent PK guy.

I'm sorry but what? I just went back through the last 6 seasons of Bissonnette's ice time and over that time he has a grand total of 23 seconds of PK time. They might have been the most impressive 23 seconds ever but that still wouldn't make him a decent PK guy or even any kind of PK guy...

 

[BobRouse]

Its not possible to show the potential cheap shots that DIDN'T occur b/c there was a heavy enforcer on the squad.

Also no one ever said a heavy enforcer will prevent 100% of all cheap shots/liberties. They sure help in theory tho if we just go by simple human nature where fear and intimidation are very real things.

I don't recall us having an enforcer when Orpik broke Semin's thumb in the 09 playoffs. (Brash was suspended at the time and I don't think Erskine was playing..could be wrong)

I don't recall us having a heavy in the lineup when Bourque elbowed Backstrom. Unless you count Hendricks as one....

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

@SDBondra If Shawn Thornton isn't bloodthirsty enough for you, Biz must not be either. What subhuman free agent do you want the Caps to sign?

 

[RandyHolt]

I always thought inking Mike Tyson to a 1 game contract would be an interesting move. Say vs Philly in their barn. And yes, let him wear his boxing gloves instead of hockey gloves for maximum effect. A publicity stunt of the decade that would draw as many viewers as his old fights.

 

[MoJoSauce]

@SDBondra If Shawn Thornton isn't bloodthirsty enough for you, Biz must not be either. What subhuman free agent do you want the Caps to sign?

Mirasty?

 

[Halpysback*]

Carcillo and Konopka please. Carcillo actually has some offensive talent and Konopka is a great 13F. Carcillo-Latta-Wilson/Carcillo-Konopka-Wilson for rivalry matchups.

 

[SDBondra]

@SDBondra If Shawn Thornton isn't bloodthirsty enough for you, Biz must not be either. What subhuman free agent do you want the Caps to sign?

Could we teach War Machine how to ice skate?

I don't have an answer.

 

[BobRouse]

Carcillo and Konopka please. Carcillo actually has some offensive talent and Konopka is a great 13F. Carcillo-Latta-Wilson/Carcillo-Konopka-Wilson for rivalry matchups.

I'd take Carcillo any day of the week. Alot of teams don't like his volitile nature but to me I love it. We need some hot heads. But he isn't a heavy and probably not a huge deterrant either. He's a gamer tho.

EDIT: Looks like rumors are we are closing in on a deal with Bissonette. Hopefully its reasonable and won't require us to make another move to shift salary out but I REALLY like this. Great locker room guy, solid 4th liner and definitely a heavy.

I like the voices we are trying to add in the locker room. We needed more glue players and from all accounts I'd classify Biznasty as one of them.

This will take a big burden of Tom Wilson and make the Caps harder to play against.

We got some big time hitters in Ovechkin, Brouwer, Orpik and Wilson already. This will help with intimidation factor.

 

[Hivemind]

I'd rather not have a player who's going to put the Capitals PK on the ice as frequently as Carcillo on the team. Especially when Brown is a more than suitable alternative.

 

[BobRouse]

I'd rather not have a player who's going to put the Capitals PK on the ice as frequently as Carcillo on the team. Especially when Brown is a more than suitable alternative.

Well the Caps seem to disagree with you.

We already have too many young players and Brown will just add to that.

Bissonette is by all accounts a great locker room guy that can really loosen the guys up in addition to providing a much better deterant than what Brown will bring.

The Pens haven't been the same since they let Talbot walk. He was a key glue guy in that room who livened things up. Guerin acquisition helped them win that cup in 09 for much the same reasons.

Its not always about the play on the ice. Even if it was its not like Brown>>>Bissonette as you are implying. There are greater ways to add value to a team.

 

[txpd]

Carcillo and Konopka please. Carcillo actually has some offensive talent and Konopka is a great 13F. Carcillo-Latta-Wilson/Carcillo-Konopka-Wilson for rivalry matchups.

isn't Carcillo known for some pretty bad decisions as these things go?

 

[Hivemind]

Well the Caps seem to disagree with you.

We already have too many young players and Brown will just add to that.

Bissonette is by all accounts a great locker room guy that can really loosen the guys up in addition to providing a much better deterant than what Brown will bring.

The Pens haven't been the same since they let Talbot walk. He was a key glue guy in that room who livened things up. Guerin acquisition helped them win that cup in 09 for much the same reasons.

Its not always about the play on the ice. Even if it was its not like Brown>>>Bissonette as you are implying. There are greater ways to add value to a team.

You might want to read my post again.