Speculation: Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap Part XLI *(Poll added 2/12)*

[artilector]

I've never really been impressed with Kane in limited viewing, but if he has the tools (worthy of his cap hit), I wouldn't much care for red flags unless I had real good intel.

I feel like most of the "red flag" guys have no problem fitting in on new teams, especially if those teams are successful. Across all kinds of pro sports.

 

[trick9]

I would take Kane and give him an another chance to prove himself, sure.

Asset wise i wouldn't be willing to deal even half of what it would actually take to acquire him though.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I would take Kane and give him an another chance to prove himself, sure.

Asset wise i wouldn't be willing to deal even half of what it would actually take to acquire him though.

This.

 

[g00n]

From Japers' Rink twitter:

Evander Kane was scratched for "arriving at the rink for a midday team meeting in sweats instead of a suit." Alright then.

Sounds like a guy really, really trying to get traded.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Sounds like a guy really, really trying to get traded.

Maybe he just doesn't want to play/live in the Peg. Can't say I blame him. I think Winnipeg would be the last place in the NHL I'd want to play, followed closely by or tied with Edmonton.

 

[BobRouse]

Why the hell do you think Seguin was shipped out?

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/tyler-seguin-moving-on/

When I got traded to the Stars after only three seasons in Boston, there were a lot of articles and rumors about how I was pushed off the Bruins because I was some kind of immature, unfocused party animal. Looking back, based on the way the Bruins were situated at the center position and the realities of a salary cap system, it’s clear that the business side of hockey played a big part in why the trade happened. But that doesn’t make for a very interesting headline or Tweet.

Any more questions?

Apparently you did.

Might want to look up the reason(s) as to why he was shipped out of Boston.

May want to take your own advice my man

RE: Kane...obvious he needs a change of scenery but the main issue the Jets GM thinking they'll get exact fair quality value wise which they will not with the gremlins he has. I like him as a player..fast..has size..scoring winger..if he could PK would be a nice top 6 addition (for some team).

Would you do either of these:

They could offer Brouwer, Chimera, Tom Wilson, and a first round pick. The other package would be Mike Green and a first round pick.

Now lets assume the Jets would do these trade

Do we trade a player who has similar production in Brouwer, Tom Wilson AND a 1st rounder for him?

The second one I think many here would jump on but its pretty dumb.

We lose Green and a 1st rounder then we roll into the playoffs with Jack Hillen and an AHL player on our 3rd pair D. Maybe Scmidt comes back and maybe he doesn't.

One injury to the top 4 and we'd be worse off than last year. Losing the 1st rounder would be a big deal in terms of using that to acquire a guy like Sekera to replace Green.

All this for an underachiever who clearly thinks he is too good to follow team rules...on multiple occassions.

http://starsandsticks.com/2015/02/04/washington-capitals-trade-target-evander-kane/

 

[g00n]

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/tyler-seguin-moving-on/

When I got traded to the Stars after only three seasons in Boston, there were a lot of articles and rumors about how I was pushed off the Bruins because I was some kind of immature, unfocused party animal. Looking back, based on the way the Bruins were situated at the center position and the realities of a salary cap system, it’s clear that the business side of hockey played a big part in why the trade happened. But that doesn’t make for a very interesting headline or Tweet.

Any more questions?

(raises hand)

Yeah...why would he admit to being an immature headcase, and wouldn't you expect him to say it was about business and not his behavior?


Hardly a neutral account.

 

[BobRouse]

(raises hand)

Yeah...why would he admit to being an immature headcase, and wouldn't you expect him to say it was about business and not his behavior?


Hardly a neutral account.

Seguin is speaking frankly there. He clearly said those were not the reasons.

The Bruins were in a big cap crunch and they had Krejci and Bergeron entrenched as their top 2Cs and Seguin is not a 3C.


Stephen Harris, the reporter who wrote the Herald story, said it was “generally assumed” that when the GM recently expressed concerns about Seguin’s professionalism and focus that he was talking about his reputed off-ice behaviour.


However, Chiarelli insisted that his comments were not directed at Seguin’s alleged partying.


“I don’t want to really play that up too much,” the GM told Harris, adding that “he liked to have fun like the rest of them. It was nothing about extracurricular activities. … Maybe some of it is true, but I know not all of it is true.”


http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/07/05/tyler_seguins_mom_lashes_out_at_boston_media_over_partying_reports.html



I think what's important to remember about Tyler is that he came here with much pomp and circumstance and he played very well for a young player," Chiarelli said. "This year wasn't his best year, but it was a trying year and a weird year to assess players. Tyler's a real good kid. I know I see the Twitter-verse, whatever it's called, and a lot of these reports about his extracurricular stuff, and I've made comments that due to his professionalism and acting more like a professional, but what has to be remembered in all this is that he's 21 years old. He's a good kid, and he's a terrific player. He's probably better suited for center. He was very good for us as a winger."


Joining Seguin in Dallas will be Peverley, who was also part of the deal.

"I think Tyler was under the microscope here in Boston and I've heard a lot of things in the past 24 hours about Tyler that I don't think is true and it's unfortunate that it's coming to people talking like that," Peverley said
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/bruins/post/_/id/13437/chiarelli-explains-decision-to-trade-seguin

So to sum it up:

Tyler Seguin denies it. Chiarelli denies it. Peverly denies it.

Some reporter "generally assumed" it was due to partying and wrote an article to get himself attention by generously extrapolating what the GM said which the GM later denied.

 

[g00n]

Seguin is speaking frankly there. He clearly said those were not the reasons.

The Bruins were in a big cap crunch and they had Krejci and Bergeron entrenched as their top 2Cs and Seguin is not a 3C.

People never emphasize things that make them look better and de-emphasize things that make them look bad? "Speaking frankly" is not good enough proof when the source of a statement about character is the person who's character is in question.

I don't think I have to explain this.

You don't like Kane and you don't want him. You've said so, in some pretty harsh terms, no less. A Seguin story with a happy ending undermines your position. I get it. But let's be intellectually honest here about the value of a post-mortem self-assessment in a situation like this.

Plus, he did not even say "those were not the reasons". He said the business side "played a big part". There is an important difference. Again, if that is even taken as a credible statement.

 

[g00n]

The rest of those quotes don't disprove the issue. The GM made the comments, even if he downplayed some of the rumors later (while saying maybe some WAS true). Peverly was in on the deal so of course he's not going to confirm every single outrageous story.

None of what you posted is proof that Seguin's behavior, which was criticized by his GM, did not factor into that GM's actions. Whether or not some of it was blown out of proportion doesn't change the fact that there was a situation that could be similar to Kane's (only 2 years age difference from when Seguin was moved) which could also have some of the issues blown out of proportion.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Sure I've made age arguments for MJ and guys like Wilson and others probably .

But do either of those guys have or had issues of laziness? Of being healthy scratched for violating team rules?

For Kane where there is smoke there is fire and from an alleged assault case to running out of restuarant bills to being late to the rink...etc He got scratched last year too and when asked what he had to do to get back in the lineup the coach said "show up to the rink"

Has MJ or Wilson ever just not shown to the rink? Do you hear about problems off the ice?

The Flyers in part traded guys like Lupul, Richards, Carter etc for "partying too much". Those guys may have been young but I don't recall them missing practice or getting in legal trouble.

The Caps ripped apart their 1990 ECF team due to a limo incident where no one was prosecuted.

There is a difference of defending young players who are learning the game vs young ones who have repeated off ice issues.

Those are some interesting examples, given that Richards and Carter went to a more structured organization and won two Cups, Courtnall was a key part of the Canucks team that made the finals in '94, Dino was a key part of the Red Wings team that made the finals in '95, and Stevens was Stevens. This seems like an excellent argument for picking up a guy like Kane. I think these off the ice issues routinely get overblown and aren't nearly as important on the ice as the media would like us to believe.

Also, WRT Seguin, isn't his success this year coming as a winger?

 

[BobRouse]

Goon

You are correct. I definitely carry a bias against Kane so that definitely is a factor in my assessment of him.

My take is that when a GM moves a well liked high profile player like Seguin then generally some dirt is kicked up whether true or not.

In the case of Seguin I think it was clear that the Bs were set down the middle, Seguin was not a fit on the 3rd line, Seguin carried a big cap hit on a cap strapped team in ADDITION to the team being displeased with his latest playoff production. Sure Chiarelli and Seguin admit to some off ice immaturity but that was just PART of the reason and not THE main part.

Kane's situation is different. Winnipeg doesn't have a cap crunch. Winnipeg doesn't have wingers in line who can really replace him (like Bergeron/Krejci situation being ahead of Seguin). He is clearly butting heads in a very public fashion with his coach.

Could Kane come to DC and turn it around? Sure. I'd bet he'd definitely be more comfortable here is the reports of him hating living there are true. Is it a guarantee? No.

Is it worth trading a respected locker room vet brining similar production (Brouwer), a 1st in a deep draft AND a recent 1st rounder unique player like Wilson?

How about Marcus Johansson (who is having a better year than Kane), a 1st in a deep draft AND a recent 1st rounder in Vrana?

Kane carries too much locker room risk. His production has not been good the last 2 years. His attitude is questionable at best. And yes...I don't like him due to these reasons.

Those are some interesting examples, given that Richards and Carter went to a more structured organization and won two Cups, Courtnall was a key part of the Canucks team that made the finals in '94, Dino was a key part of the Red Wings team that made the finals in '95, and Stevens was Stevens. This seems like an excellent argument for picking up a guy like Kane. I think these off the ice issues routinely get overblown and aren't nearly as important on the ice as the media would like us to believe.

Also, WRT Seguin, isn't his success this year coming as a winger?

Zoidberg

I think you miss my point. I feel those players mentioned got unfairly persecuted. They were only guilty in the court of public perception and were not healthy scratched on multiple occassions due to violating team rules.

Also all those players were HIGHLY productive and proven. Kane is not. He's got the 4th worst ES production on his team right now. He has not played particulary well the last couple years.

Carter, Lupul, Richards, Courtnall, Stevens, Dino were all established players with multiple excellent years under their belt.

Also lets be real...

Salary cap issues (in the case of the Flyers) and cheap owner (in the case of the Caps with Stevens and Dino) were big reasons why they were let go. Courtnall requested a trade due to public embarrassment so thats different.

My point was that Kane is in a very different situation.

 

[Raikkonen]

I'd prefer Iginla. 2 more years of 5,333M caphit. Doesn't he want to win a Cup?!

Skill, toughness, experience, leadership, motivation. No prospects of a Cup in Denver.

**** EKane.

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Iginla. Drop the puck!

 

[g00n]

BR,

You THINK Kane is a very different situation due to what you've heard in the media and what you've speculated. Same criteria for the Seguin situation. You can't point to the common perception as not representing the full picture in Seguin's case and refuse to do the same for Kane.

Citing off-ice behavior in ANY way when trading a young, promising player is very rare. Why is Seguin's story just smoke but Kane's is fire?

Also, coaching decisions are not universal from team to team. Just like one GM may feel more comfortable discussing the rare case of a player's off-ice issues when making a trade, some coaches are more likely to scratch or discipline players. Just being scratched doesn't make one player more guilty than another guy whose coach is too chicken to take him out of the lineup, or hasn't found out about what he's doing.

It's also possible for players to be completely stifled in one city or under the wrong system or coach. Is Semin automatically an incurable headcase who couldn't thrive anywhere else because he's an expensive star who's been scratched a lot this year?

I have a hard time blaming professional athletes, who have a limited window of opportunity, for looking out for their best interests in this regard...especially when "maturity" is the complaint in dealing with a guy barely old enough to legally drink, and who is probably still filling out biologically (you said so yourself when discussing "improvement" in players as they get older...the brain also keeps developing in the 20s).

Kane could be a talentless jerk. Or he could be something else, including a top athlete who's so disgusted with the historically bad Atlanta/WPG organization that he's doing what he thinks is necessary to force them to ship him out. We won't really know until there's a change.

 

[BobRouse]

I'd prefer Iginla. 2 more years of 5,333M caphit. Doesn't he want to win a Cup?!

Skill, toughness, experience, leadership, motivation. No prospects of a Cup in Denver.

**** EKane.

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Iginla. Drop the puck!

meh...he's 37 and signed for 2 more years after this one. I don't know but maybe he even has a NTC?

Too old and slow.

Besides Colorado is in the mix for a wild card spot so I don't see why they would be sellers especially since they've been winning as of late.

BR,

You THINK Kane is a very different situation due to what you've heard in the media and what you've speculated. Same criteria for the Seguin situation. You can't point to the common perception as not representing the full picture in Seguin's case and refuse to do the same for Kane.

Citing off-ice behavior in ANY way when trading a young, promising player is very rare. Why is Seguin's story just smoke but Kane's is fire?

Also, coaching decisions are not universal from team to team. Just like one GM may feel more comfortable discussing the rare case of a player's off-ice issues when making a trade, some coaches are more likely to scratch or discipline players. Just being scratched doesn't make one player more guilty than another guy whose coach is too chicken to take him out of the lineup, or hasn't found out about what he's doing.

It's also possible for players to be completely stifled in one city or under the wrong system or coach. Is Semin automatically an incurable headcase who couldn't thrive anywhere else because he's an expensive star who's been scratched a lot this year?

I have a hard time blaming professional athletes, who have a limited window of opportunity, for looking out for their best interests in this regard...especially when "maturity" is the complaint in dealing with a guy barely old enough to legally drink, and who is probably still filling out biologically (you said so yourself when discussing "improvement" in players as they get older...the brain also keeps developing in the 20s).

Kane could be a talentless jerk. Or he could be something else, including a top athlete who's so disgusted with the historically bad Atlanta/WPG organization that he's doing what he thinks is necessary to force them to ship him out. We won't really know until there's a change.

Goon

I think there was reasonable assumption that the Bs were stacked at C and had a cap crunch and Seguins big hit didn't make sense since they were loaded down the middle. I do believe that played into it far more than off ice issues. Seguin and Chiarellia said as much and I have no reason to doubt them.

I agree on the last part for sure. There is much to love about Kane's skillset. If you know me then you know I like ornery players who can skate like the wind, score and punch faces. Don't think I'm blind to this.

But there are red flags here and he is a risky player to take on. Alot of that is due to the assets it would cost to acquire him but also the pattern of being scratched or having issues. Could he turn it around with a change of scenery? Absolutely. There are reports that race is an issue. I guess winnipeg isn't the most racially diverse locale where as the exact opposite is true of DC.

But is it worth it for the Caps specifically to take that risk? Do we trade multiple valuable assets when we are already close to an elite possession team with a seemingly tight knit locker room? Do we take the chance at disrupting that when there are many other players we can bring aboard for far cheaper that carry less risk?

 

[KevinM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRyIgatcTAs


Here's a cool video showing Chiarelli and Co. discussing shopping Seguin

 

[Raikkonen]

Anyone knows if it's common for GM to call the player in question and ask him if he's going to **** around in new city or not?

- Hey, Evander, you know the deal, no ****ing around, OK?! (Barry Trotz voice)

 

[BiPolar Caps]

Hear different figures being thrown about regarding next year's cap, with speculation at the low end being 71.6 and high end 73.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/03/dean-lombardi-is-criticizing-the-nhl-again/

So using the low end 71.6 and utilizing what's available via NHL Numbers (we all miss cap geek), started deducting the current cap hits from 71.6 along with projecting what the cap hit might be for resigning some UFAs and RFAs:
- Fehr at 4 million
- Beagle at 2 million
- Mike Green at 6 million
- MAJO/RFA at 3.5 million
- Kuznestsov/RFA hit stays the same at 2.8
- Holtby/RFA at 4 million

After all of that, total is near 71 million with less than 1 million cap room available and that's with letting Ward, Erskine and AV walk and not signing any UFAs come the off season.

 

[trick9]

No interest in keeping Green for anywhere near that even.

He's going to get his 6-7 year cash contract and that shouldn't come from Washington where his future lies on the bottom-pairing.

 

[BobRouse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRyIgatcTAs


Here's a cool video showing Chiarelli and Co. discussing shopping Seguin

I can't view it. Whats the gist of it?


Either way I don't believe we are going to make a huge big name splash.

I'm thinking more of a vet RW or a vet D to take Hillen's spot either of whom are pending UFAs.

I do think Justin Williams is ideal. I don't think LA is going to fall way out of the race to justify even thinking of moving him. LA just wants to make the playoffs and knows they can win the cup as an 8th seed and dealing Williams does nothing to for them.

 

[BiPolar Caps]

No interest in keeping Green for anywhere near that even.

He's going to get his 6-7 year cash contract and that shouldn't come from Washington where his future lies on the bottom-pairing.

Not suggesting the Caps resign Green, but still you need to know the financial parameters that the Caps may have for next season which dictates what they can and can't do.

Also another consideration is the Capitals depth chart at defense.

Right shooting defensemen:
Carlson
Niskanen
Green
Carrick
Olesky
Kundratek
Wey
Bowey

Left shooting densemen:
Orpik
Alzner
Hillen
Schmidt
Orlov
Schilling
Erskine

 

[Hivemind]

Hear different figures being thrown about regarding next year's cap, with speculation at the low end being 71.6 and high end 73.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/03/dean-lombardi-is-criticizing-the-nhl-again/

So using the low end 71.6 and utilizing what's available via NHL Numbers (we all miss cap geek), started deducting the current cap hits from 71.6 along with projecting what the cap hit might be for resigning some UFAs and RFAs:
- Fehr at 4 million
- Beagle at 2 million
- Mike Green at 6 million
- MAJO/RFA at 3.5 million
- Kuznestsov/RFA hit stays the same at 2.8
- Holtby/RFA at 4 million

After all of that, total is near 71 million with less than 1 million cap room available and that's with letting Ward, Erskine and AV walk and not signing any UFAs come the off season.

I think that's high for Beagle, but low for Johansson and Holtby. I don't anticipate Johansson signing for less than $4M, and Holtby could push north of $5M if he continues to post top-5 goaltender numbers.

 

[ReggietheSavage15]

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/tyler-seguin-moving-on/

When I got traded to the Stars after only three seasons in Boston, there were a lot of articles and rumors about how I was pushed off the Bruins because I was some kind of immature, unfocused party animal. Looking back, based on the way the Bruins were situated at the center position and the realities of a salary cap system, it’s clear that the business side of hockey played a big part in why the trade happened. But that doesn’t make for a very interesting headline or Tweet.

Any more questions?



May want to take your own advice my man





http://starsandsticks.com/2015/02/04/washington-capitals-trade-target-evander-kane/

Oh really?

B’s trade problem child

Straight from the Boston Herald.

 

[BobRouse]

Oh really?

B’s trade problem child

Straight from the Boston Herald.

Well yeah thats the Harris article that I referenced above that was debunked.

Stephen Harris, the reporter who wrote the Herald story, said it was “generally assumed” that when the GM recently expressed concerns about Seguin’s professionalism and focus that he was talking about his reputed off-ice behaviour.


However, Chiarelli insisted that his comments were not directed at Seguin’s alleged partying.


“I don’t want to really play that up too much,” the GM told Harris, adding that “he liked to have fun like the rest of them. It was nothing about extracurricular activities. … Maybe some of it is true, but I know not all of it is true.”

 

[BiPolar Caps]

I think that's high for Beagle, but low for Johansson and Holtby. I don't anticipate Johansson signing for less than $4M, and Holtby could push north of $5M if he continues to post top-5 goaltender numbers.

If that's the case, then might as well remove any thoughts that some may have of resigning Green even for a hometown discount.

If the team even moves the likes of a Chimera in the off season, that's a low cap hit comparatively speaking.

Caps defensive corps for 2015/16 may very well look like:
Orpik - Carlson
Alzner - Niskanen
Orlov - Carrick
Schmidt