Racing: 2021 Formula 1 Season
- Thread starter JoVel
- Start date
FiveTacos
Registered User
And in his first major statement he takes a shot at Lewis for not showing up to the awards because ... "rules are rules." Can you not read the room dude?
I thought it was just Masi being weak/incompetent, but maybe they really do want to make it so Lewis quits F1. I'm sure there's many racing series who would love for a driver of his profile to join up and boost their ratings; I know I've come to like Indycar more and more in recent years. Guess it just depends if Hamilton feels like he has something to prove in F1, or if he's content with himself and is just racing for his own enjoyment (in which case frankly I think he should go).
I thought it was just Masi being weak/incompetent, but maybe they really do want to make it so Lewis quits F1. I'm sure there's many racing series who would love for a driver of his profile to join up and boost their ratings; I know I've come to like Indycar more and more in recent years. Guess it just depends if Hamilton feels like he has something to prove in F1, or if he's content with himself and is just racing for his own enjoyment (in which case frankly I think he should go).
FiveTacos
Registered User
He could have still avoided appearing weak by not saying much, and just hitting him with a fine. But making a show of it with a tone deaf statement about rules or regulations ... that's just not good PR, and accomplishes nothing positive for the FIA's image at the moment. Even a lot of serious fans don't give a rat's ass about the awards ceremony, so why draw that sort of attention?
Kane One
Moderator
I don’t get this controversy. The lapped cars should have been allowed to overtake a lap sooner, no? Why are people saying it should have ended under a SC?
Mount Suribachi
Registered User
Because
1) only the lapped cars between Lewis and Max were allowed to unlap themselves. The rules say all or none
2) The safety car came in the same lap, the rules say it comes in the next lap
3) Race control originally said lapped cars would NOT be allowed to unlap themselves. Then Horner started pressuring Masi and Masi changed his mind.
Edit: the lapped cars could not unlap themselves earlier because there were still marshals on the track. The track was not clear till lap 57 of 58.
If no cars were allowed to unlap themselves, the safety car could have come in at the end of lap 57, race restarts under green flag, but Max has 5 back markers between him and Lewis. It was pretty much the only legal way to finish the race under a green flag
Any or none Red Bull would point out.
"Any: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity" (Merriam-Webster)
"Any: some, or even the smallest amount or number of" (Cambridge)
It was unusual but not necessarily against the rules per se.
Mount Suribachi
Registered User
Saw a post by a lawyer that said they would get laughed out of court if they tried to pull that one in front of a judge. It's all or none, and it's how the rule has always worked.
FiveTacos
Registered User
That's a dictionary definition not a legal one. Arguing a regulation in a court of law, wording matters and is very specific.
My cousin is a lawyer with the Attorney General in DC, and she says the legal interpretation of something like the "any" in 48.12 would fall under the idea that when you mention one specific class ("any lapped cars") then all others are excluded (ie. "all cars that have not been lapped").
Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius - FindLaw Dictionary of Legal Terms
Thus in this situation if it had gone to court, "any" DOES actually mean "all." Just like a concert promoter that has in their terms "in the event of a cancelled concert, any person holding a valid ticket will be fully refunded," cannot argue in court that "any" means only some concert goers, it's everyone who has a valid ticket. If F1 had intended "any" not to mean "all" but rather "ones of the race director's choosing" then they need to reword their rulebook because as currently written "any" is the same as "all" in a legal reading.
MXD
Original #4
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FiveTacos
Registered User
It is still a legal document under which multiple parties (teams) have agreed to operate. Expression of exclusion does not solely apply to consumer protection laws/documents, it's how legal documents of all sorts are read/interpreted.
Even if you truly believe that's how it's meant, then I'm curious what kind of argument you would make for keeping it as is? It's not in the interest of safety, because it was no less safe to have backmarkers between other cars than just between P1 and P2. It's not in the interest of sporting fairness, obviously. So what's the reasoning for arguing that the rules allow only some cars to be unlapped and not others?
It may be worth noting that ultimately the F1 Commission operates at the pleasure of the World Motor Sport Council and the degree of the commission's autonomy is thus up to the WMSC to determine. It is not known that the Concorde Agreement would include anything that would give the teams this type of power over the interpretation of regulations relative to the FIA, and thus if the relevant FIA bodies approve the actions of their F1 race director there is little that can be done about it. A report regarding the events discussed here was presented to the WMSC recently, and it is now up to the council to decide which changes or clarifications are appropriate. The council has already indicated that they are willing to listen to the teams for propositions and I think it is as good as certain that the 2022 regulations will be different in this regard, although in which way remains to be seen. But those hoping to see Masi go or any other dramatic action by the FIA may be left disappointed.
FiveTacos
Registered User
No, there will be no dramatic action. Masi however is a bit of a PR problem for them now. If LH and MV are battling it out again next year, every incident that goes in favor of Lewis will have people crying that they're just being pressured into making up for what happened at Abu Dhabi, and anything that goes in favor of MV will be pointed to as proof of bias for Max/against Lewis. And at this point do other drivers/teams trust that they're always going to be treated fairly in a race?
Ultimately a fixing of the regulations would I think be essential ... and at least somewhat satisfactory to Mercedes (who would probably point to it as a certain vindication). Even those who believe all rules were correctly followed cannot seriously believe that that's the way things SHOULD be handled in the future. None of it made any sense from a safety perspective, it wasn't sensible from a fairness perspective, and it was even questionable under the existing rules as they were generally understood by everyone before last week.
One of the reasons I can't get into NASCAR is the artificial manufactured close competition, and it results in stupidity like the "playoff system." I really hope F1 doesn't head down that path ... not every sport has to have parity, and frankly F1 has never really had it and has done just fine. The problem with that last race isn't so much the end result (because if the crash happened a lap earlier the same result happens, and to me that would have been just racing luck), but rather that it LOOKED manufactured, whether intended or not.
No racing fans like manufactured results ... that's why Crashgate and Rubens/Schumi team orders pissed so many people off, whether technically against the rules or not. But the fact that this time it came from the race director who's supposed to be impartial makes this one much worse from a PR perspective.
My wife and I are going to the Montreal GP this year, it will be our first race. For anyone else who has been to an F1 race, any opinion on how exciting/relevant the Friday practice runs are? Trying to plan out our trip and determine if going to the track Friday is worthwhile?
Mount Suribachi
Registered User
It really depends on what you want to do/are interested in.
Depending on how busy they are, some of the circuits open all the stands on the Friday so you can walk round the track and see it from different vantage points. Impossible to do at Silverstone for an F1 race, but I've done it for WEC races there and it was great fun.
If you're into photography, Friday is a great day to focus (heh) on it as you're not distracted by trying to keep track of times/places and there's less people getting in the way.
If you're into motorsports generally there will be support races to watch
There's usually spectator attractions, stalls etc. On a Sat/Sun, they will be absolutely rammed with people and no fun. Friday there's usually less fans (except at Silverstone where there's still 100,000 people lol) so you actually have a chance at getting at them.
Or, you could just sit and watch the cars go round in circles for a few hours if you're a really hardcore F1 fan lol.
Watching an F1 race in person is very different to watching it on TV. You have the noise of the cars, the passion of the crowd, But you can only catch fragments of the commentary whether from the circuits tannoy, or your own headphones as the noise of the cars drowns it out. There are big screens, but its really hard to see the timings on them. So you're relying on your eyes and your brain to keep track of positions and gaps, and you have to concentrate a lot more than watching TV.
Where are you sitting? I completely forgot the sale date and all I can get now is Stand 15 on the hairpin.
I logged in just minutes after they became available and got Grand Stand 12 "sections 2,3,4", the seats are not assigned at the moment.
I got unlucky on hotel, I had booked a room months ago expecting the dates to be more in line with 2019, but the race is a weekend later so I've ended up paying 3x as much after prices got jacked up. Also many hotels are doing non-refundable for any reason at this time, so I didn't want to risk it.
That is the perk of living here, no hotel needed and the ticket includes use of the public transport.
I would have liked either 12 or 11 on the Senna corner so well done
That is the perk of living here, no hotel needed and the ticket includes use of the public transport.
I would have liked either 12 or 11 on the Senna corner so well done
Is public transportation free for visitors too!? That will be ideal.
Your ticket will serve as your transport pass. You just show to the driver or metro worker.
