Racing: 2021 Formula 1 Season

[TheHudlinator]

I can't wait to see who is gifted the WDC next year should make for great entertainment to bad it won't be rewarding the driving anymore.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I can't wait to see who is gifted the WDC next year should make for great entertainment to bad it won't be rewarding the driving anymore.

You don’t think the guy with 10 wins and 18 podiums was worthy of winning it?

he was the better driver this year

 

[CharlesPuck]

You don’t think the guy with 10 wins and 18 podiums was worthy of winning it?

he was the better driver this year

nope. He didn’t deserve it. He was equal on points with Lewis and in second place in a race he had to beat Lewis in.

He doesn’t deserve shit and was lucky to be handed the WDC.

This whole, “he won a lot throughout the season, he deserves it!” is so pathetic. You win the WDC by having more points than the next guy, not for having a good season. The fact is he needed to out score Lewis and hadn’t done that before SC Gate.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

nope. He didn’t deserve it. He was equal on points with Lewis and in second place in a race he had to beat Lewis in.

He doesn’t deserve shit and was lucky to be handed the WDC.

This whole, “he won a lot throughout the season, he deserves it!” is so pathetic. You win the WDC by having more points than the next guy, not for having a good season. The fact is he needed to out score Lewis and hadn’t done that before SC Gate.

He was also taken out earlier in the year by Lewis which is the only reason they were tied in points.

Max was the better driver, well deserving of the WDC.

Congrats to Max.

Cry about it.

 

[CharlesPuck]

He was also taken out earlier in the year by Lewis which is the only reason they were tied in points.

Max was the better driver, well deserving of the WDC.

Congrats to Max.

Cry about it.

lol. He was taken out because Lewis didn’t give up the space like Max thinks he always has the right to but never yields to anyone else.

Max is a great driver but his style sucks.

 

[TheHudlinator]

You don’t think the guy with 10 wins and 18 podiums was worthy of winning it?

he was the better driver this year

Didn't say he wasn't worthy but he had clearly lost the deciding race until Masi went full send on the "entertainment factor". Lewis should have won that race and by doing so should be champion it has nothing to do with Max who will most likely win several WDC but he shouldn't have won this year. Max was every bit as good as Lewis this year maybe even better but he was gifted the WDC in such a unbelievable way.

 

[JoVel]

I miss the pre Abu Dhabi days when this place was mostly a fun place with level headed discussions.

Then came the season finale and so did the shitposters.

 

[FiveTacos]

Go ahead, have the last word. I'm done engaging with you over this.

I think I've made my position clear. But as far as last words, I'll leave you with this quote:

“There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past.”

Who said that? Michael Masi, at the 2020 Eifel GP. Not some cars. All.

 

[WTG]

I think I've made my position clear. But as far as last words, I'll leave you with this quote:

“There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past.”

Who said that? Michael Masi, at the 2020 Eifel GP.

You know what, I was very condescending towards you and it was un called for. I'm sorry for that.

 

[FiveTacos]

You know what, I was very condescending towards you and it was un called for. I'm sorry for that.

I've been online since '91, I don't take anything personally over the internet, no big.

In any case, all I want from this or any sport is consistency with the rules. I don't think between last year and this year Masi had a sudden realization that he had the authority to no longer follow that particular sporting requirement. I honestly think what happened, as initially broadcast he was going to restart without letting cars through (which he can choose to do, and there would have been a racing lap left with lapped cars in between), sent the SC in message, THEN decided at the last second to let lapped cars through, but suddenly realized by the time they all went through it would be the last lap and too late. He put himself in a jam where he was going to violate one of two regulations. And all of this is happening in a matter of seconds with two whiny team principals chirping in his ear.

I'd honestly have far less issue with this if the FIA had just said, "An error was made, but we cannot retroactively change the results." Just like the mistaken checkered flag resulted in a shortened race a while back. People screw up, it's not the end of the world ... any decent racing fan knows that in the end LH/Merc outperformed Max/RB when all the chips were down, but sometimes things happen out of your control. I just don't like when people in charge screw up and then try to pretend it was actually all just fine and by the book. Just own it, at least then it doesn't look like they were trying to set up a particular driver to win; if I were them I'd rather look bumbling than biased.

 

[WTG]

I've been online since '91, I don't take anything personally over the internet, no big.

In any case, all I want from this or any sport is consistency with the rules. I don't think between last year and this year Masi had a sudden realization that he had the authority to no longer follow that particular sporting requirement. I honestly think what happened, as initially broadcast he was going to restart without letting cars through (which he can choose to do, and there would have been a racing lap left with lapped cars in between), sent the SC in message, THEN decided at the last second to let lapped cars through, but suddenly realized by the time they all went through it would be the last lap and too late. He put himself in a jam where he was going to violate one of two regulations. And all of this is happening in a matter of seconds with two whiny team principals chirping in his ear.

I'd honestly have far less issue with this if the FIA had just said, "An error was made, but we cannot retroactively change the results." Just like the mistaken checkered flag resulted in a shortened race a while back. People screw up, it's not the end of the world ... any decent racing fan knows that in the end LH/Merc outperformed Max/RB when all the chips were down, but sometimes things happen out of your control. I just don't like when people in charge screw up and then try to pretend it was actually all just fine and by the book. Just own it, at least then it doesn't look like they were trying to set up a particular driver to win; if I were them I'd rather look bumbling than biased.

I think that's fair to want consistency and I was being very uncharitable with my arguments. Still feeling the high a bit from the Max win. What you said earlier would be true, I would be upset if this went in favor of Hamilton.

One more thing I would like to add though. I think the inconsistency with the lapped cars. There was a radio broadcast where Horner talked to Massi about letting the cars pass. Masi said, "give me a moment to get the track clear" or something close to that. I'm gonna make the assumption that they didn't want cars to unlap themselves until the crash was clear. The not letting Sainz fight the front runners is a bit of a head-scratcher.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Onboards with all the cars during the SC. Seems every single driver knew what *should* have happened, and was surprised when it didn't. The only thing they get "wrong" is when asking why the unlapped cars aren't unlapping themselves earlier, which was because there were still marshalls on the track.

Ricciardo's is best. I am glad I am not a part of that. Whatever just happened, it seemed pretty f***ed up.

 

[bluesfan94]

I think I've made my position clear. But as far as last words, I'll leave you with this quote:

“There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past.”

Who said that? Michael Masi, at the 2020 Eifel GP. Not some cars. All.

To be fair, that isn’t what the regulation actually says.
The problem is that Masi felt pressure to end under a green flag (which, admittedly, is something all teams agreed to) and that led to some creative interpretation of the rules. Valid interpretations, but creative and inconsistent with what Masi has said in the past. Of course, the past is the past and inconsistent rulings have benefitted Hamilton this season as well and it’s within Masi’s prerogative to interpret the rules however he sees fit.
I think there’s enough discretion for Masi and grey area in the rules for it to be a totally valid interpretation, it just also clearly benefitted Max. I also wonder what would have happened if no cars untapped themselves but the lapped cars were immediately blue flagged. And we’ll never know, just like we’ll never know what may have happened if the rulings that benefitted Hamilton didn’t happen.

 

[umma gumma]

I think that's fair to want consistency and I was being very uncharitable with my arguments. Still feeling the high a bit from the Max win. What you said earlier would be true, I would be upset if this went in favor of Hamilton.

One more thing I would like to add though. I think the inconsistency with the lapped cars. There was a radio broadcast where Horner talked to Massi about letting the cars pass. Masi said, "give me a moment to get the track clear" or something close to that. I'm gonna make the assumption that they didn't want cars to unlap themselves until the crash was clear. The not letting Sainz fight the front runners is a bit of a head-scratcher.

I honestly don't think Sainz would bother getting involved. It changed nothing points wise for him and Ferrari to score try and score a 2nd.

 

[FiveTacos]

To be fair, that isn’t what the regulation actually says.
The problem is that Masi felt pressure to end under a green flag (which, admittedly, is something all teams agreed to) and that led to some creative interpretation of the rules. Valid interpretations, but creative and inconsistent with what Masi has said in the past. Of course, the past is the past and inconsistent rulings have benefitted Hamilton this season as well and it’s within Masi’s prerogative to interpret the rules however he sees fit.

Wait a sec ... so his interpretation last year "isn't what the regulation actually says", but it's his prerogative to interpret rules however he sees fit? Do you not see those two things as contradictory? You're essentially saying he has latitude to interpret rules however he wants, but his interpretation last year was incorrect. You cannot hold those two positions at the same time.

And this is the heart of things. For some reason, this race the SC was handled differently not just from the perspective of Masi vs. any other previous race director ... but it wasn't even consistent with HIMSELF. You cannot put someone that wishy washy in charge of a major sporting event.

Two good things may come out of this .. he may be out of a job, and they're going to stop letting team bosses talk to directors during the race. It should be one-way ... this is what the race director/stewards decided, end of story. None of this lobbying or ridiculous negotiations between director and teams ("would you like P3 sir?"). Well, and perhaps clarification of SC rules, because if it really is okay for the race director to decide things on the fly and change his mind about how a rule should be applied from race to race, then the rules as written are meaningless. And if from now on only the top 2 drivers in any race are allowed to finish without lapped cars between them after a SC, then it should be written into the regs, not left to "interpretation."

I I also wonder what would have happened if no cars untapped themselves but the lapped cars were immediately blue flagged.

Odds are Lewis opens at least a little gap between him and the cars behind, plus the additional distance of the cars in between was worth another 1-2 secs ... so even with blue flags Max would have had a hard time catching Lewis as he'd have to make up several seconds, AND get an overtake. But if he had, at least no one would be able to question how things were handled, and it would have gone down as an all-time great single lap performance. To me, his championship would have been unquestioned and much more memorable in a good way, as opposed to memorable in a controversial way. And if he'd failed, I think he would have still come off looking like a champ.

To me, almost everyone comes out a loser here. Max's title isn't everything it could have been, Toto and Christian look like petulant whiners, and the FIA/Masi look like feckless weaklings. And fans were robbed of a legitimate race to the finish instead of a foregone conclusion at the restart. I was genuinely excited at the idea of Max going for it on a final bonsai lap to get past the lapped cars and chase LH down ... instead the moment the cars were waved past and he was put right behind Lewis there was no suspense at all.

Honestly, only Lewis comes out of this looking good ... everyone acknowledges he would have won on merit, he didn't try to run Max off and take his chances, and afterward handled it with more class and dignity than I honestly ever expected from him (always thought he was far too whiny myself).

And we’ll never know, just like we’ll never know what may have happened if the rulings that benefitted Hamilton didn’t happen.

At least the previous rulings have largely been a question of "who's at fault for how much." There's always gray area there, and let's not pretend rulings (or non-rulings) didn't happen both ways. This, however, was not a judgement on racing incidents, it was a previously unseen handling of SC rules.

 

[bluesfan94]

Wait a sec ... so his interpretation last year "isn't what the regulation actually says", but it's his prerogative to interpret rules however he sees fit? Do you not see those two things as contradictory? You're essentially saying he has latitude to interpret rules however he wants, but his interpretation last year was incorrect. You cannot hold those two positions at the same time.

Why not?

For some reason, this race the SC was handled differently not just from the perspective of Masi vs. any other previous race director ... but it wasn't even consistent with HIMSELF. You cannot put someone that wishy washy in charge of a major sporting event.

Not arguing that - and this is hardly the first time there have been inconsistent rulings with Masi - but that's a different question than the violation of the rules.

Two good things may come out of this .. he may be out of a job, and they're going to stop letting team bosses talk to directors during the race. It should be one-way ... this is what the race director/stewards decided, end of story.

Completely agree. Honestly, I wouldn't hate Masi sticking around with the latter change, just to see the

Odds are Lewis opens at least a little gap between him and the cars behind, plus the additional distance of the cars in between was worth another 1-2 secs ... so even with blue flags Max would have had a hard time catching Lewis as he'd have to make up several seconds, AND get an overtake.

Probably, but with old hards vs new softs, who knows.

 

[FiveTacos]

I honestly don't think Sainz would bother getting involved. It changed nothing points wise for him and Ferrari to score try and score a 2nd.

Um ... because he could have won his first F1 race while the two guys in front were busy scrapping it out? All it would have taken was one corner where the two guys ended up running wide during a battle. It's insane to think he wouldn't have tried.

And as for Lewis and Max, Carlos slipping by would have been irrelevant to them, so they wouldn't risk a tangle with him.

Sainz legit had a chance to score a win if they'd allowed all the cars past.

 

[FiveTacos]

Why not?

Because if his interpretation is always correct, then last year's interpretation of the rules in a similar situation by definition cannot be incorrect.

 

[MXD]

Sainz legit had a chance to score a win if they'd allowed all the cars past.

...Actually, no, because there's no way this could've been done safely done before the last lap.
(but without that detail, yes, he could, though it would've hinged on both drivers crashing and not crossing the line).

 

[umma gumma]

Um ... because he could have won his first F1 race while the two guys in front were busy scrapping it out? All it would have taken was one corner where the two guys ended up running wide during a battle. It's insane to think he wouldn't have tried.

And as for Lewis and Max, Carlos slipping by would have been irrelevant to them, so they wouldn't risk a tangle with him.

Sainz legit had a chance to score a win if they'd allowed all the cars past.

Then he would just wait for it to happen instead of contributing to it. Maybe he gets taken out as well? Better to sit back and let the fireworks happen. I still don't think he gets involved.

And no, Sainz on his old tires was not going to mount a challenge to Max and his fresh softs for the win.

 

[Albatros]

Wait a sec ... so his interpretation last year "isn't what the regulation actually says", but it's his prerogative to interpret rules however he sees fit? Do you not see those two things as contradictory? You're essentially saying he has latitude to interpret rules however he wants, but his interpretation last year was incorrect. You cannot hold those two positions at the same time.

And this is the heart of things. For some reason, this race the SC was handled differently not just from the perspective of Masi vs. any other previous race director ... but it wasn't even consistent with HIMSELF. You cannot put someone that wishy washy in charge of a major sporting event.

Two good things may come out of this .. he may be out of a job, and they're going to stop letting team bosses talk to directors during the race. It should be one-way ... this is what the race director/stewards decided, end of story. None of this lobbying or ridiculous negotiations between director and teams ("would you like P3 sir?"). Well, and perhaps clarification of SC rules, because if it really is okay for the race director to decide things on the fly and change his mind about how a rule should be applied from race to race, then the rules as written are meaningless. And if from now on only the top 2 drivers in any race are allowed to finish without lapped cars between them after a SC, then it should be written into the regs, not left to "interpretation."



Odds are Lewis opens at least a little gap between him and the cars behind, plus the additional distance of the cars in between was worth another 1-2 secs ... so even with blue flags Max would have had a hard time catching Lewis as he'd have to make up several seconds, AND get an overtake. But if he had, at least no one would be able to question how things were handled, and it would have gone down as an all-time great single lap performance. To me, his championship would have been unquestioned and much more memorable in a good way, as opposed to memorable in a controversial way. And if he'd failed, I think he would have still come off looking like a champ.

To me, almost everyone comes out a loser here. Max's title isn't everything it could have been, Toto and Christian look like petulant whiners, and the FIA/Masi look like feckless weaklings. And fans were robbed of a legitimate race to the finish instead of a foregone conclusion at the restart. I was genuinely excited at the idea of Max going for it on a final bonsai lap to get past the lapped cars and chase LH down ... instead the moment the cars were waved past and he was put right behind Lewis there was no suspense at all.

Honestly, only Lewis comes out of this looking good ... everyone acknowledges he would have won on merit, he didn't try to run Max off and take his chances, and afterward handled it with more class and dignity than I honestly ever expected from him (always thought he was far too whiny myself).



At least the previous rulings have largely been a question of "who's at fault for how much." There's always gray area there, and let's not pretend rulings (or non-rulings) didn't happen both ways. This, however, was not a judgement on racing incidents, it was a previously unseen handling of SC rules.

I don't think Verstappen needs to care how his overtake came to be, whether it was because of Masi's meltdown or Hamilton suffering a puncture or anything else.

 

[FiveTacos]

Then he would just wait for it to happen instead of contributing to it. Maybe he gets taken out as well? Better to sit back and let the fireworks happen. I still don't think he gets involved.

And no, Sainz on his old tires was not going to mount a challenge to Max and his fresh softs for the win.

He doesn't have to stick his nose in, but he certainly could have had an opportunity to capitalize depending on the level of battle going on. And I don't think Max is going to risk a pass on Carlos if he slipped by when he can sit in P2 and win the championship.

But as pointed out, unlapping all cars would have likely pushed it to lap 58 to bring the SC in and so it's irrelevant anyway.

 

[umma gumma]

He doesn't have to stick his nose in, but he certainly could have had an opportunity to capitalize depending on the level of battle going on. And I don't think Max is going to risk a pass on Carlos if he slipped by when he can sit in P2 and win the championship.

But as pointed out, unlapping all cars would have likely pushed it to lap 58 to bring the SC in and so it's irrelevant anyway.

Sure, but this to me sounds like he wouldn't get involved in their fight, which is what I was saying.

I wonder if the whole safety car fiasco would be less of an issue if they hadn't informed us lapped cars would not be able to pass? Like if everything played out as it did but minus the no pass caption.

I think that is what bothered me the most; they made one decision and then made another.

 

[FiveTacos]

Sure, but this to me sounds like he wouldn't get involved in their fight, which is what I was saying.

I guess we're largely in agreement, but I'm just saying if he slips by and is ahead I think it's unlikely whoever was in P2 is going to be very aggressive in trying to take the win away from him. However, at least in the case of no lapped cars, Sainz doesn't have to just hope for the two guys to take each other out, he could slip past even if those two stay in the race but are slowed down significantly in a corner (like they both run wide and have maneouvre around curbs). An opportunity Sainz would not have with lapped cars in between.

I wonder if the whole safety car fiasco would be less of an issue if they hadn't informed us lapped cars would not be able to pass? Like if everything played out as it did but minus the no pass caption.

I think that is what bothered me the most; they made one decision and then made another.

Yeah, or if they'd let everyone past on lap 56 (assuming track was clear), brought the SC in on 57, and Max overtakes Lewis easily on 58, it's just bad luck for Lewis ... but no questions about regulations. That's just racing luck. What we saw doesn't feel like racing luck though.

I know in the old days there were times a race director made a decision that wasn't necessarily correct, but I hate this lobbying by team bosses during a race, and you still sometimes end up with wrong decisions anyway. Plus it looks really bad when Horner is on the radio asking for the cars to be cleared after the decision was announced, then the decision is changed ... even if Masi would have changed his mind on his own for whatever reason, it's absolutely terrible optics.

 

[bluesfan94]

Because if his interpretation is always correct, then last year's interpretation of the rules in a similar situation by definition cannot be incorrect.

Were the situations exactly the same?