WC: 2017 Team Finland

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Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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As for the Marjamäki discussion, I can't help but shake my head. People are really that eager to get rid of him that they're willing to concoct some story about him being a Summanen 2.0? Or if they're not coming up with those stories themselves, they're willing to grasp at straws and believe any bar corner hearsay to get support for their stance.

I mean, yeah, obviously some people are that mad, but it's still completely tasteless to even hint at something like that. And it really makes me doubt said commenters' grasp of reality, if they think it makes some kind of respectable argument for getting rid of the coach.


To grasp at straws?! As if the arguments for the sacking of mr. Berry Hill were unfoundational and flimsy? - Nope, they are solid enough given all the facts and or evidence that nobody really has to "grasp at straws" here in making the case.
 

FiLe

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Oct 9, 2009
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To grasp at straws?! As if the arguments for the sacking of mr. Berry Hill were unfoundational and flimsy? - Nope, they are solid enough given all the facts and or evidence that nobody really has to "grasp at straws" here in making the case.
If you really have to bring up the coach having a "difficult personality" based on hearsay, that's grasping at straws.

Argue results if you want, but claiming or even subtly suggesting that Marjamäki has mental disorders is not the kind of talk that should make anyone sensible wish to take the case against him any more seriously.
 
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rduck1

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Dec 26, 2013
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Yeah probably not the best job on Earth LOL. On the other hand if you're not emotionally invested in the hockey then why are you watching it? I don't love watching ugly ass dudes skating around the rink , trying to analyze all their moves and mistakes. I love to watch hockey because of the feeling I get when my team wins. And damn I hate it when my team loses. All emotion LOL

I watch hockey because I like hockey. It's an exciting game that's difficult to predict, and I can see it played live at a high level in my local area. I think those are pretty good reasons. I do also invest myself emotionally to some extent, but it's good to keep that in moderation(hence the qualifier "too" in the original post). Otherwise it's quite easy to lose one's senses and make a fool out of oneself. A wise man once said:
It's only game, why you have to be mad?
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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I watch hockey because I like hockey. It's an exciting game that's difficult to predict, and I can see it played live at a high level in my local area. I think those are pretty good reasons. I do also invest myself emotionally to some extent, but it's good to keep that in moderation(hence the qualifier "too" in the original post). Otherwise it's quite easy to lose one's senses and make a fool out of oneself. A wise man once said:

A wise man said that? Oh.

Well, I am a wise man also, or fool if you will, and say: It is a game that lets you be mad. So be it when you can!
 

rduck1

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Dec 26, 2013
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A wise man said that? Oh.

Well, I am a wise man also, or fool if you will, and say: It is a game that lets you be mad. So be it when you can!

I have found that avoiding madness has distinct advantages in life. The policy of maintaining as level-headed and reasonable of an outlook as I possibly can has served me well, while failure to follow it has often been a source of unnecessary headache. It is also for this reason try not to take too strong of a stance on matters such as the management of our national ice-hockey team, since I don't have access to all the important facts, and most crucially no way to act upon my conclusions even if I did.

(For the record, my position on the current point under discussion is as follows: I hope that a thorough post-mortem investigation is carried out after the tournament, including reports on all the unsatisfactory results from the coaching staff. All options should then be considered by the relevant experts and authorities. This, I think is the professional way to go about it, and the way that is most likely to yield good results. )
 

sooni

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Oct 23, 2014
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http://www.is.fi/mmkiekko/art-2000005214787.html I have to admit that these guys are right for once. We are really badly behind Canada. We have kinda 6 players which are good enough to even challenge best players in the world. Laine, Barkov, Aho, Koivu, Granlund and Ristolainen and ofc. our goalies (Rinne,Rask). Rest of the players are coming from second or third basket.

Maybe in 3-4 years we might have 10-12 players. Even then we are not even close to becoming "best hockey country" in the world. Now i´m coming in my point... Our Coach really managed to get us to top 8, with only one of those six. He have done more than fine.

Our players skill set and skating is badly behind. That is the truth and everyone just should accept it.
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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http://www.is.fi/mmkiekko/art-2000005214787.html I have to admit that these guys are right for once. We are really badly behind Canada. We have kinda 6 players which are good enough to even challenge best players in the world. Laine, Barkov, Aho, Koivu, Granlund and Ristolainen and ofc. our goalies (Rinne,Rask). Rest of the players are coming from second or third basket.

Maybe in 3-4 years we might have 10-12 players. Even then we are not even close to becoming "best hockey country" in the world. Now i´m coming in my point... Our Coach really managed to get us to top 8, with only one of those six. He have done more than fine.

Our players skill set and skating is badly behind. That is the truth and everyone just should accept it.


Nope. The game is just lethargic **** in a way it has hardly ever been before mr. Wise Guy aka Berry Hill took the reins. -So, out out and once again out!
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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I have found that avoiding madness has distinct advantages in life. The policy of maintaining as level-headed and reasonable of an outlook as I possibly can has served me well, while failure to follow it has often been a source of unnecessary headache. It is also for this reason try not to take too strong of a stance on matters such as the management of our national ice-hockey team, since I don't have access to all the important facts, and most crucially no way to act upon my conclusions even if I did.

(For the record, my position on the current point under discussion is as follows: I hope that a thorough post-mortem investigation is carried out after the tournament, including reports on all the unsatisfactory results from the coaching staff. All options should then be considered by the relevant experts and authorities. This, I think is the professional way to go about it, and the way that is most likely to yield good results. )

Fair enough, but I must yet present one two three rebuttals. For one, the issue is contrversial and your stance doesn't reflect the general nature of human life in all its oddities and passions. Sprts and games involving athleticism are a civilized way to channel these passions, emotions and, yes, aggressions. Two: It is better to be a tiger (or a lion, here) for one day than a sheep for a century. It is a saying that has some legitimacy still and especially in this context. Thridly, Team Finland and its organization is not operating in a vacuum but must respond to the public demans and criticism as it has social functions to fill in society in large.
 

ijuka

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May 14, 2016
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http://www.is.fi/mmkiekko/art-2000005214787.html I have to admit that these guys are right for once. We are really badly behind Canada. We have kinda 6 players which are good enough to even challenge best players in the world. Laine, Barkov, Aho, Koivu, Granlund and Ristolainen and ofc. our goalies (Rinne,Rask). Rest of the players are coming from second or third basket.

Maybe in 3-4 years we might have 10-12 players. Even then we are not even close to becoming "best hockey country" in the world. Now i´m coming in my point... Our Coach really managed to get us to top 8, with only one of those six. He have done more than fine.

Our players skill set and skating is badly behind. That is the truth and everyone just should accept it.
Oh but haven't you read the Urheilulehti analysis... Valtteri Filppula is(my loose translations) "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team", "One of the Finnish all-time NHL greats" and "As close to mistake-free as realistically possible".
 

sooni

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Oct 23, 2014
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Oh but haven't you read the Urheilulehti analysis... Valtteri Filppula is(my loose translations) "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team", "One of the Finnish all-time NHL greats" and "As close to mistake-free as realistically possible".



:shakehead . Well all respect for hes career... Maybe lack of training or long playoff runs have done something for him, but he is shadow of hes best. Kucherov said that pretty openly...
 

rduck1

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Dec 26, 2013
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Fair enough, but I must yet present one two three rebuttals. For one, the issue is contrversial and your stance doesn't reflect the general nature of human life in all its oddities and passions. Sprts and games involving athleticism are a civilized way to channel these passions, emotions and, yes, aggressions. Two: It is better to be a tiger (or a lion, here) for one day than a sheep for a century. It is a saying that has some legitimacy still and especially in this context. Thridly, Team Finland and its organization is not operating in a vacuum but must respond to the public demans and criticism as it has social functions to fill in society in large.

Your first point is incredibly vague. It effectively amounts to "the thing you want to avoid exists", which is a rather trivial notion. Of course those things exist, and in moderation they can be quite healthy. However the crux of my point is that in some contexts these impulses are indulged immoderately, international hockey in Finland being one such case. I contend that this is generally a bad thing and to be avoided.

As to the second point, though a poetic turn of phrase to be sure, it doesn't really amount to much either. Essentially the meaning is "a little of a good thing(being a lion) is better than a lot of a bad thing(being a sheep)". Again, trivial, and furthermore, irrelevant. Living an emotionally driven and bestial life is hardly preferrable to one lived with reason and temperance, I would think.

As to the third, this, I partly agree on. The team has a social and cultural part to play, certainly, however the degree of that is up for discussion. The traditional view might be said to be that it involves building a common dramatic narrative for the purposes of national unity, or some such, but I think that is quite a heavy burden to place on athletics, and has a bit of an unsavory political tone to it as well. That said, even if we are to assume that view, I don't see how it would preclude one from going along with it in a sensible and tempered manner.

P.S. We have strayed quite far from topic here, into some sort of Platonian exchange in ethics and social philosophy. We ought to keep our exchanges more to the issues going forward, lest we provoke the wrath of the dreaded moderation team.
 
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JJTT

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Jan 18, 2013
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Oh but haven't you read the Urheilulehti analysis... Valtteri Filppula is(my loose translations) "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team", "One of the Finnish all-time NHL greats" and "As close to mistake-free as realistically possible".

Forward who can't score goals can't be "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team"
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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Forward who can't score goals can't be "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team"

Since when you have taken seriously Sport Magazine's ridiculous click journalism and its overstatements? Hah.
 

ijuka

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May 14, 2016
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Forward who can't score goals can't be "the overwhelming King of the Finnish hockey team"

They put zero value on offensive ability. To them, the most important thing for a player to do is to make safe, risk-free plays and to be good defensively.
 

MMANumminen

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May 7, 2010
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Vaakanainen, Tolvanen and others have done nothing to earn place in national team. Best player should be selected always doesn't matter what age. It's world championships, not some prospect showdown
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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Your first point is incredibly vague. It effectively amounts to "the thing you want to avoid exists", which is a rather trivial notion. Of course those things exist, and in moderation they can be quite healthy. However the crux of my point is that in some contexts these impulses are indulged immoderately, international hockey in Finland being one such case. I contend that this is generally a bad thing and to be avoided.

As to the second point, though a poetic turn of phrase to be sure, it doesn't really amount to much either. Essentially the meaning is "a little of a good thing(being a lion) is better than a lot of a bad thing(being a sheep)". Again, trivial, and furthermore, irrelevant. Living an emotionally driven and bestial life is hardly preferrable to one lived with reason and temperance, I would think.

As to the third, this, I partly agree on. The team has a social and cultural part to play, certainly, however the degree of that is up for discussion. The traditional view might be said to be that it involves building a common dramatic narrative for the purposes of national unity, or some such, but I think that is quite a heavy burden to place on athletics, and has a bit of an unsavory political tone to it as well. That said, even if we are to assume that view, I don't see how it would preclude one from going along with it in a sensible and tempered manner.

P.S. We have strayed quite far from topic here, into some sort of Platonian exchange in ethics and social philosophy. We ought to keep our exchanges more to the issues going forward, lest we provoke the wrath of the dreaded moderation team.

Not to stray or derail the discussion out of its "limits" but this must be responded to in brief and in the heart of the matter.

I commented the ethos of your quote of a so called wise man saying in essence "why mad? it is just a game." The ethos and rationale behind this so called "wisdom" was and is quite trivial and narrow minded ethos and rationale in itself. Of course it is "just a game". Yet, game is quite a vague and broad concept in the end. And what comes to madness we should all live through it in one way or another in some phase of our lives, or we have not lived or experienced what this life and humanity truly are about. Furthermore, realted to the topic, the game of hockey and the emotional reaction in the rink and outside, on the stands and by tv screens are something you cannot do away with your academic sensibility and tempreance no more than you can do away things you call "madness" -or "passion" or "love".

You should avoid them, you say? Sure, clinical forms of madness and aggressions of violent and illegal kind, sure, buddy. But madness of carnevalism and show? I do not think so. You make it sound like your ideal form of life were a life of a public servant serving his subtle and incomprehensible cause in a tidy and immaculate way in a silent, spiritless, rationally organized bureau for the cause subtle and incomprehensible indeed unless it is the silence, spiritless and rationally organized bureau and life within it itself. And all the society should behave accordingly and all life should happen in those bureaus with their sensible, moderate and calm mechanics and expressions. - Ice hockey and related outbursts of emotion and aggression should be avoided at all costs and if not it would be better if the games were played in some remote colonies in the outer space and only broadcasted back to the surface of the earth where these temperate public servants serving the public good of temperance and such if nothing else could watch the games from their bedrooom screens with their serene or sedated mindsets while getting their calmness pills for the calm nights and the demands of the next day and then again back to the silent crystal clear bureaus to serve the common good of being rational and temperate. :help: :D :laugh:
 

rduck1

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Dec 26, 2013
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You should avoid them, you say? Sure, clinical forms of madness and aggressions of violent and illegal kind, sure, buddy. But madness of carnevalism and show? I do not think so. You make it sound like your ideal form of life were a life of a public servant serving his subtle and incomprehensible cause in a tidy and immaculate way in a silent, spiritless, rationally organized bureau for the cause subtle and incomprehensible indeed unless it is the silence, spiritless and rationally organized bureau and life within it itself. And all the society should behave accordingly and all life should happen in those bureaus with their sensible, moderate and calm mechanics and expressions. - Ice hockey and related outbursts of emotion and aggression should be avoided at all costs and if not it would be better if the games were played in some remote colonies in the outer space and only broadcasted back to the surface of the earth where these temperate public servants serving the public good of temperance and such if nothing else could watch the games from their bedrooom screens with their serene or sedated mindsets while getting their calmness pills for the calm nights and the demands of the next day and then again back to the silent crystal clear bureaus to serve the common good of being rational and temperate. :help: :D :laugh:

This is a strawman. The meaning of the words "temperance" and "moderation" is in essence "not too much, and not too little". I'm not proposing that we all turn into some kind of Zen-robots -- that too would be immoderate. The problem I was trying to point out, at its very core, is that people indulge their emotional side too much in this contex, and it tends to cloud their judgment and engender poor behavior. This type of public scapegoating of sportspeople is one such case, in my opinion.

It is fine to have those emotional impulses("I don't like Marjamäki"), but it is not fine in my opinion to expect(or indeed demand) the institutions of modern society to act based on those impulses("I don't like Marjamäki; Liitto needs to fire him"). Modern society has gotten this far on rational principles; I think it's best for us to let them also govern the way we run our sports teams if what we're truly after are results.
 

kunekune

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Feb 17, 2016
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http://www.is.fi/mmkiekko/art-2000005214787.html I have to admit that these guys are right for once. We are really badly behind Canada. We have kinda 6 players which are good enough to even challenge best players in the world. Laine, Barkov, Aho, Koivu, Granlund and Ristolainen and ofc. our goalies (Rinne,Rask). Rest of the players are coming from second or third basket.

Maybe in 3-4 years we might have 10-12 players. Even then we are not even close to becoming "best hockey country" in the world. Now i´m coming in my point... Our Coach really managed to get us to top 8, with only one of those six. He have done more than fine.

Our players skill set and skating is badly behind. That is the truth and everyone just should accept it.

Countries not named Canada, Sweden, USA and Russia don't even have those 6 1st basket players.

It's true that Finland is behind the top four but we are above the rest so managing to get to top-8 is not a good achievement.
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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This is a strawman. The meaning of the words "temperance" and "moderation" is in essence "not too much, and not too little". I'm not proposing that we all turn into some kind of Zen-robots -- that too would be immoderate. The problem I was trying to point out, at its very core, is that people indulge their emotional side too much in this contex, and it tends to cloud their judgment and engender poor behavior. This type of public scapegoating of sportspeople is one such case, in my opinion.

It is fine to have those emotional impulses("I don't like Marjamäki"), but it is not fine in my opinion to expect(or indeed demand) the institutions of modern society to act based on those impulses("I don't like Marjamäki; Liitto needs to fire him"). Modern society has gotten this far on rational principles; I think it's best for us to let them also govern the way we run our sports teams if what we're truly after are results.

Boh. I don't think so. It was no strawman. It undermined nicely and elegantly the assumed ultimate wisdom of the common response "C'mon, it is just a game! Why to be mad?" this 'wisdom' amounting to not much anything in the realm of wisdom. Just saying.

And also saying: The "Liitto" should fire this dude, mr. Berry Hill. And more vocal the public is about this, the better and more probably the "Liitto" will comply and fire the dude, mr. Berry Hill. -Be vocal, folks! Be MAD!
 

rduck1

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Dec 26, 2013
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Boh. I don't think so. It was no strawman. It undermined nicely and elegantly the assumed ultimate wisdom of the common response "C'mon, it is just a game! Why to be mad?" this 'wisdom' amounting to not much anything in the realm of wisdom. Just saying.

That's a meme, referring to Bryzgalov's rather humourous post-game comments from way back. It should be quite obvious that referring to Bryz as a wise man is not meant as a serious point :s . And yes, it was a strawman characterization of everything I had presented, in that it argued against a position I do not and have not advocated.
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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That's a meme, referring to Bryzgalov's rather humourous post-game comments from way back. It should be quite obvious that referring to Bryz as a wise man is not meant as a serious point :s . And yes, it was a strawman characterization of everything I had presented, in that it argued against a position I do not and have not advocated.

It was not a meme in the context of your post. And regardless, the point delievered in it is quite a commonplace and needs to be scrutinized and deconstructed as a platitude of everyday talk. And I did it - without any appeal to strawmans. Rather I deserve applauds for the fine work in the area of defending the rights of a common man to rage against the machine. Maybe even a trophy of some kind.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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While philosophy is interesting, let's take a step back to the real world.

Our Lions had practice today in Cologne, and wow - looks like Marjamäki shuffled the deck big time:

Savinainen - Filppula - Rantanen
Pyörälä - Aho - Puljujärvi
Pihlström - Kemppainen - JMA
Hännikäinen - Lajunen - Osala

While in some way this new lineup makes way more sense than those we used in group stage, it's still a pretty radical shift. Almost feels like a hail mary.
 

Loffer

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Sep 22, 2011
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While philosophy is interesting, let's take a step back to the real world.

Our Lions had practice today in Cologne, and wow - looks like Marjamäki shuffled the deck big time:

Savinainen - Filppula - Rantanen
Pyörälä - Aho - Puljujärvi
Pihlström - Kemppainen - JMA
Osala - Lajunen - Hännikäinen

While in some way this new lineup makes way more sense than those we used in group stage, it's still a pretty radical shift. Almost feels like a hail mary.

Finally we do agree again, honorable mr. FiLe. Couldn't be more of the same opinion. - And don't get me wrong. I do appreciate your articulated ways of discussing here and the big majority of your posts are wise and well thought. Just not this Berry Hill apology, even if it can be viewd as an admirable effort also. No more about it.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Finally we do agree again, honorable mr. FiLe. Couldn't be more of the same opinion. - And don't get me wrong. I do appreciate your articulated ways of discussing here and the big majority of your posts are wise and well thought. Just not this Berry Hill apology, even if it can be viewd as an admirable effort also.
Taking the realistic, down-to-earth stance on something is hardly apologism.

Also, I'm not a Marjamäki guy no matter what. I won't protest if they end up sacking him after all, I just don't think they're going to do that, and I can see the reasoning why. For emphasis, these are: 1. His season wasn't a complete disaster and 2. there are no better obvious options available. That's it.

But hey, keep on hopin'. Perhaps something miraculous happens. Maybe Mike Babcock suddenly shows up at Liitto's doorstep and asks to coach the Lions pro bono.

For the record - if that really happens, and Nummela and Nurminen tell him, "Sorry, we got no need for you, we already got Late Marjamäki, go back to Toronto" - I'll be the first to call 'em the biggest idiots in the history of hockey.
 

rduck1

Registered User
Dec 26, 2013
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Finland
While philosophy is interesting, let's take a step back to the real world.

Our Lions had practice today in Cologne, and wow - looks like Marjamäki shuffled the deck big time:

Savinainen - Filppula - Rantanen
Pyörälä - Aho - Puljujärvi
Pihlström - Kemppainen - JMA
Hännikäinen - Lajunen - Osala

While in some way this new lineup makes way more sense than those we used in group stage, it's still a pretty radical shift. Almost feels like a hail mary.

Yep, kinda feels like since we've brought Pulju and JMA along, might as well let them do their thing and hope it works. Would still like to see Hännikäinen get more minutes, I think he's been quite decent and could produce with better linemates.
 
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