WC: 2017 Division I, II, III

SoundAndFury

Registered User
May 28, 2012
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Kudos to Koreans. They have achieved what they wanted. Their "any means necessary" attitude is not something I would support or they should be proud of but still. They have done it.

Kazakhstan looks poorer than they should. That NA line should be dominant but it simply isnt. I kinda like it.

I actually thought about it today. People are going to point fingers after this failure and really, who is to blame for this? The NA line that didn't deliver, that couldn't score a goal against Poland. So basically, a bunch of NA guys are to blame for Kazakhstan not scoring even though they got all but 1 of Kazakhstan's goals in this tournament. And since those guys from NA weren't scoring another bunch of guys from NA were able to get Korea (or Hungary, or Italy) promoted. God bless the IIHF tournaments. Huge props to Latvians for not giving into this "lets give that guy a passport" clown race.
 

EbencoyE

Registered User
Nov 26, 2006
1,958
5
Kudos to Koreans. They have achieved what they wanted. Their "any means necessary" attitude is not something I would support or they should be proud of but still. They have done it.



I actually thought about it today. People are going to point fingers after this failure and really, who is to blame for this? The NA line that didn't deliver, that couldn't score a goal against Poland. So basically, a bunch of NA guys are to blame for Kazakhstan not scoring even though they got all but 1 of Kazakhstan's goals in this tournament. And since those guys from NA weren't scoring another bunch of guys from NA were able to get Korea (or Hungary, or Italy) promoted. God bless the IIHF tournaments. Huge props to Latvians for not giving into this "lets give that guy a passport" clown race.


.... pretty sure they already had passports considering they live and work in these countries which are now their homes...

It's weird how obsessed you are with this issue, especially considering the IIHF has some of the strictest eligibility rules in international sports and yet you try to play it off as if the IIHF is somehow not strict enough...
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me on June 3
Jun 23, 2007
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Behind A Tree
South Korea keeps rolling, another win today vs. Hungary. Looks good for them to qualify for next year's World Championships.
 

Tomas W

Registered User
Oct 23, 2007
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Sweden
So the Koreans looks to actually be a top division team soon? Makes thier participation in the Olympics more legit, imo.
 

HungryFrank

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Jun 20, 2015
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It's weird how obsessed you are with this issue, especially considering the IIHF has some of the strictest eligibility rules in international sports and yet you try to play it off as if the IIHF is somehow not strict enough...

I'm just dissapointed because teams that work with kids and try to develop existing resources are overshadowed by a team that just buys players and then they are considered to spread hockey.
 

airbus1094

Registered User
Feb 27, 2013
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Philly
Personally was always against having naturalized players on natl. teams, but can see the reasoning why. We have a deficit of players during the 'changing of guard' guys from the soviet era retiring and not enough younger guys coming in. The NA players (was supposed to) keep the team up until the youngsters get good enough. Glad to see the u20 and u18 teams doing well, but a little embarrassing to see Dawes, Bochenski, Dalman getting all the points.

I would be fine staying in D1A and playing our native guys.
 

airbus1094

Registered User
Feb 27, 2013
319
8
Philly
.... pretty sure they already had passports considering they live and work in these countries which are now their homes...

It's weird how obsessed you are with this issue, especially considering the IIHF has some of the strictest eligibility rules in international sports and yet you try to play it off as if the IIHF is somehow not strict enough...

They're imports. When your top line wasn't born in the country and doesn't speak the language that's not a good sign. Not to mention that technically kaz does not allow dual citizenship ... and those guys definitely threw away their us and canadian passports.
 
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While I can understand why some of the smaller hockey countries would go for NA imports for a temporary quick-fix until they can grow their own talents, relying too much/solely on these imports (like Italy, the Netherlands and Austria in the 1980s and 1990s) will hamper the development of their programs. In the short run they would advance some, but it won't hold out in the long run. Norway mostly stayed away from this practice (with a few exceptions, like Norwegian-Canadian Robert Schistad and an occasional Swede) and failed to get promoted until 1989, but in the long run their program of focusing on natural-born players improved and they got back to the top division (with exceptions in 1991, 1998 and 2001-2005).

So all-in-all, naturalized players can be a mixed blessing IMO. In some cases, players can grow honest feelings for their new country and thus they want to represent them - in that case, I can't see the big problem. Especially in cases where they initially move to play, but eventually get settled with girlfriends/wives and kids who grows up in that country, it would be understandable if some of them will grow some feelings toward their new country.

Having NA (or other) imports on your team can both be a blessing or a problem. If their talent help bring out the good in the other, natural-born players of the national team, that can be a good thing. However, when NA imports end up becoming the most important part of the team (for example, but limited to, Kazakhstan) and you rely too heavily on them, the national team would kind of look like a joke.

Too be fair to South Korea, though, it is worth mentioning that their first two offensive lines are made of native Koreans (first line: Kim Won Jun - Kim Ki Sung - Kim Sang Wook; second line: Cho Min Ho - Shin Sang Hoon - Shub Hyung Yun). While NA imports in the form of Dalton (GK), Bryan Young (first defensive pair), Eric Regan (second defensive pair), Alex Plante (third defensive pair) and Michael Swift (3rd line) do help a lot, one shouldn't overlook that

that Sang Hoon Shin and Ki Sung Kim were the scoring leader and the top goal scorer of the Asia League playoffs respectively. Also worth mentioning is that among the five best Korean scoring leaders, three of them are Korean (Kim Ki Sung, 3+1; Ahn Hin Hui, 1+3; Kim Sang Wook, 1+3).
 

kabidjan18

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Apr 20, 2015
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.... pretty sure they already had passports considering they live and work in these countries which are now their homes...
These imports rarely stay in their naturalized countries after retirement, in fact a much higher percentage leave before retirement for other clubs in other countries.

But I have no problem with countries doing this because it hurts them and only them. Yes, a bit of temporary success, a surprise promotion, your ten minutes in the sun, or for a fading superpower it appears to be a chance to stay relevant. Seems wonderful.

However, naturalization, as many countries are learning, is a poison pill. To illustrate this point we can talk Korea in the Asia league. The Asia League import limit I believe is 2. On paper Anyang Halla and Gangwon High only have 1 import each. Then you factor in naturalized imports. Anyang Halla actually has 6 imports, and Gangwon High has 4. Between both clubs, only one player under 24 scored 10 points last season. Playing time is absolutely crucial for young prospects and when you naturalize imports for the national team you artificially inflate the import limit and thereby take away playing time from your prospects. Then, when your first batch of naturalized imports retire you have no one ready to take up the mantle and are forced to naturalize more players. Even if you have a KHL team, the best players you can naturalize are NHL rejects, if you aren't in the KHL the best you might get are AHL players or ECHL players and that places what is effectively a glass ceiling on how good your team can be.

That's why the new trend among Federations is anti-import naturalizing. Belarus had such a miserable time being unable to offer their brightest junior stars any KHL time in Dinamo Minsk they cut many of their naturalized imports and sent them packing to other teams in other leagues. Viola, these patriotic athletes, now that they are gone, are no longer involved with the National Team. The Belorussian team looks terrible, probably the worst I've ever seen it, and might even be under threat from Slovenia to even stay up. But a year ago, after their U18 team was promoted to the Elite Tier for the first time in a few years, I said "the athletes you see today you will never see again." What I said had historical roots, but what I didn't anticipate was that the federation was concerned, realized they had a problem on their hands, and began to deal with it accordingly. Overcrowding is still terrible in Minsk because they must accommodate for all the returning expats, but Dmitri Ambrozheichek, Danila Karaban, and Yevgeni Lisovets have actually each gotten chances throughout the season to play big minutes and potentially build their games. Italy also left naturalizing players and they made it up, Great Britain and Japan are also heading in the same direction and Germany's roster this year will also be the first it seems to not feature any naturalized imports.

So when I see a program naturalizing players, and perhaps they get a moment in the sun like Hungary did last year or Korea did this year, I don't get worked up about it. Hype is immaterial. Rinks, coaching programs, training camps, sophisticated player agencies, the infrastructure for annual entry-level contracts, those make a real difference.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me on June 3
Jun 23, 2007
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Behind A Tree
Tomorow's game between Austria and South Korea looks like it could be a big 1. Only 1 game today between Kazakhstan and Ukraine. If the Kazaks win they're back in the top 2 which is a spot for qualification.
 

SoundAndFury

Registered User
May 28, 2012
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So today finally separated contenders from pretenders in IB, Lithuania loses 5-2 to GB meaning Japan and GB are clearly countries between whom the promotion will be decided. It wasn't a complete blowout so with full lineup, especially Armalis and Alisauskas, we might have given it a good go but with current rosters GB was obviously in control.

Emilis Krakauskas as a major bright spot today, that guy is really going to grow into one hell of the player at this level.
 

Sanderson

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Sep 10, 2002
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Italy also left naturalizing players and they made it up, Great Britain and Japan are also heading in the same direction and Germany's roster this year will also be the first it seems to not feature any naturalized imports.

Germany has been on and off doing that stuff, I don't think that there is a specific timeframe where something like that happens before it stops again. There might have been some occurances among nations where they went quite far with it, which often does hurt the nations in he longrun, but generally nations just do it now and then when it happens to fit.

Germany won't be without foreign-trained players this year either. Both Brooks Macek and Brent Raedeke came over from North Ameria. Though technically they already were dual-citizens and didn't need to be naturalized, which is actually the reason why they came over to the DEL in the first place. Iserlohn was known to look for North American players with German citizenship, because it didn't really have the money to compete with the big teams.
 

kabidjan18

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Apr 20, 2015
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Germany has been on and off doing that stuff, I don't think that there is a specific timeframe where something like that happens before it stops again. There might have been some occurances among nations where they went quite far with it, which often does hurt the nations in he longrun, but generally nations just do it now and then when it happens to fit.

Germany won't be without foreign-trained players this year either. Both Brooks Macek and Brent Raedeke came over from North Ameria. Though technically they already were dual-citizens and didn't need to be naturalized, which is actually the reason why they came over to the DEL in the first place. Iserlohn was known to look for North American players with German citizenship, because it didn't really have the money to compete with the big teams.
I'm not factoring in those with pre-existing citizenships.

Pre-existing citizenships imply heritage and historical ties. We have a couple on our team too. However, I didn't see Macek or Raedeke on the rosters in the Germany forum.
 
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ZT

Registered User
Jun 19, 2015
193
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Croatia
So today finally separated contenders from pretenders in IB, Lithuania loses 5-2 to GB meaning Japan and GB are clearly countries between whom the promotion will be decided. It wasn't a complete blowout so with full lineup, especially Armalis and Alisauskas, we might have given it a good go but with current rosters GB was obviously in control.

Emilis Krakauskas as a major bright spot today, that guy is really going to grow into one hell of the player at this level.

Lithuania (Kaunas) has applied to host next year's WC D1B. Probably in Žalgirio Arena...Or is there some other suitable hockey arena in Kaunas?
 

NCRanger

Bettman's Enemy
Feb 4, 2007
5,460
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Charlotte, NC
Is international officiating usually awful?

Just watched Lithuania get hosed against Japan.

Guy scores a goal by digging the puck out of the goaltender's pads? That should have been whistled down as a play stoppage. Not to mention the power play Japan was on was bogus too. Since when is skating into a stationary player rewarded by calling the stationary player for interference?

Then a Lithuanian gets called for diving after taking a stick to the face?

Come on.
 

kabidjan18

Registered User
Apr 20, 2015
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IIHF scorekeepers are some of the most unbelievably blind people I've ever come across. Sometimes I half expect my own name to pop up on the liveticker randomly. They didn't award a goal on an redirect when the player in front of the net redirected it from head level into the net. I guess the trajectory of the puck just naturally takes a 90 degree downwards angle once it comes a meter out in front of net.
 

Siamese Dream

Registered User
Feb 5, 2011
75,216
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Is international officiating usually awful?

Just watched Lithuania get hosed against Japan.

Guy scores a goal by digging the puck out of the goaltender's pads? That should have been whistled down as a play stoppage. Not to mention the power play Japan was on was bogus too. Since when is skating into a stationary player rewarded by calling the stationary player for interference?

Then a Lithuanian gets called for diving after taking a stick to the face?

Come on.

It's usually worse than this (generally speaking over the course of the tournament so far)
 

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