Speculation: 2017-18 Sharks roster discussion III - Offseason Edition

[Doctor Soraluce]

1st line winger? This season is the first time he’s scored more than 43 points since 2011-2012... come to think of it, wasn’t that his last contract year? Funny coincidence, wouldn’t you say?

Before you say “b-b-but games played!!”, can we not pretend that being injured isn’t basically the defining characteristic of his whole career? With the exceptions of 2 (two!) whole seasons, which both just so happened to be contract years for him, Kane has been a 40 point player who is poor defensively his entire NHL career. I’m not paying more than $5M for that and I’m certianly not giving him more than three years of term. Mind you, I don’t want him signed at all, but those look like somewhat reasonable numbers for what he actually is and I wouldn’t exactly be mad about it if that were to happen.

Well, you're not the GM and I imagine you don't have the money to pay him no matter what the salary. . But you should probably get ready to be disappointed. I'm betting DW signs him for 6mil or more for 6+ years. If they get him for 5mil+ I would consider that a steal. It's the type of move DW would do. For the record I'm fine if they sign someone like JVR instead though for 7mil. As far as your being injured premise, Hertl is probably only worth 4mil. Even Boedker has had better seasons. Kanes injuries are mostly from his style of play which typically makes him a valuable player. I guess we'll see.

 

[spintops]

Evander Kane is 15th among forwards in the NHL in even strength goals over the last 3 years combined (even with time missed for injury) . Somehow he belongs on our 3rd line ? What .

His point totals aren't great, but he's bad on the PP and doesn't belong there. This team has stretches of struggling to score even strength and that's what he does. He was the best player on the ice down the stretch when we were winning

 

[spintops]

Pretty good company. I'm all for signing Tavares and that should be priority#1. But we can grab Kane as well and hopefully we can get him for 6M or less.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This assessment just isn't based in reality. He's not signing for 5 mil to play on the 3rd line and he shouldn't have to. He's a first line winger and he's better than every winger the sharks have depending on if you count Hertl a winger or a center. Even then its like apples and oranges. Meier may be better someday but that isn't now.

You have to count one of Hertl or Couture as a winger in this context and I don't think Kane is better than either of them. The TDL improvement in play has a lot to do with quality of competition and the lack of Joe Thornton as it may have to do with Kane's arrival. His play certainly gave the team a boost but they benefited from some bad teams on the schedule as well. I don't think that boost holds up over the long haul just because he's not that type of player. That said, I won't be mad if they re-sign him. There are just worthy concerns about signing him to term and the cap hit he'll command. I'm mostly concerned about his play style not having him in the lineup and wearing him into a decline like Lucic so his term would need to be short like four years tops.

 

[Maladroit]

If Kane is still available after Tavares is signed (either by us or another team), and we have enough cap space (obviously depends on whether we get Tavares and what his contract looks like), I would love if we signed him. I really don't think it's wise to extend him before July 1st though.

 

[OrrNumber4]

If Kane is still available after Tavares is signed (either by us or another team), and we have enough cap space (obviously depends on whether we get Tavares and what his contract looks like), I would love if we signed him. I really don't think it's wise to extend him before July 1st though.

With the negotiating period teams get, DW should have a solid idea of the avenues available to him.

 

[Maladroit]

With the negotiating period teams get, DW should have a solid idea of the avenues available to him.

Right, if we can come to a preliminary agreement with Tavares during the negotiating period (or if the Isles extend him, or if DW learns that another team has an agreement with JT) then it makes sense to extend Kane pre-July if he fits under the cap. My point is just that Tavares should far and away be the priority, even if that means losing out on both Tavares and Kane as a result. Important to keep in mind that we would give up our 2019 1st round pick to Buffalo if we re-sign Kane. A Sharks team with Kane but no Tavares could very possibly miss the playoffs and that could end up being a lottery pick.

 

[stator]

With the negotiating period teams get, DW should have a solid idea of the avenues available to him.

Just for clarification, the negotiating period is the actual free agency. You're probably referring to the interviewing period where no negotiation is allowed.

I doubt that rule gets violated, but I'm sure GMs skate around the grey area between interviewing and negotiating in that time.

 

[stator]

I'll give rosterbating a shot. I apologize if this too unrealistic...

Trades:
1) Trade Braun, Tierney, Melker Karlsson to Toronto for their 2018 1st round pick and Connor Brown
2) Flip the Toronto 1st round pick, Sharks 2018 1st round pick, a 3rd round pick, and Paul Martin for Dougie Hamilton

Thoughts?

That would be a draft pick for every season left on Hamilton's contract. Plus that would cause the Sharks to step back from fixing their center depth issue since Carpenter was lost on waivers. If the Sharks lost out on the Tavares sweepstakes in FA, that issue becomes more so.

Then, there is the likely possibility, if all this goes down, that it's only a 1 year team due to Couture and Pavekski's impending UFA after next season. Sharks could end up with cap issues like the Hawks. Maybe Burns could then be allergic to his hockey equipment?

When Hamilton reaches UFA eligibility in three seasons, I don't think the Sharks could afford both him and Burns unless there is some serious cap increases. But at that point, I'm sure most here would prefer Hamilton over Burns when it comes down to that. Some sound like they would trade Burns for Hamilton now.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Well, you're not the GM and I imagine you don't have the money to pay him no matter what the salary. . But you should probably get ready to be disappointed. I'm betting DW signs him for 6mil or more for 6+ years. If they get him for 5mil+ I would consider that a steal. It's the type of move DW would do. For the record I'm fine if they sign someone like JVR instead though for 7mil. As far as your being injured premise, Hertl is probably only worth 4mil. Even Boedker has had better seasons. Kanes injuries are mostly from his style of play which typically makes him a valuable player. I guess we'll see.

This is such a silly statement.

Hertl has played 79, 80, and 82 games in his five year career. That’s not even remotely comparable to Kane. JVR blows and I’d be furious if we signed him.

You really didn’t even try to argue my point. Just jokes about semantics and then tried to take an (ineffective) shot at Hertl. It’s seriously concerning that Kane has quite literally been a 40 point player his whole entire career outside the two seasons he was playing for a new contract.

 

[DG93]

That would be a draft pick for every season left on Hamilton's contract. Plus that would cause the Sharks to step back from fixing their center depth issue since Carpenter was lost on waivers. If the Sharks lost out on the Tavares sweepstakes in FA, that issue becomes more so.

Then, there is the likely possibility, if all this goes down, that it's only a 1 year team due to Couture and Pavekski's impending UFA after next season. Sharks could end up with cap issues like the Hawks. Maybe Burns could then be allergic to his hockey equipment?

When Hamilton reaches UFA eligibility in three seasons, I don't think the Sharks could afford both him and Burns unless there is some serious cap increases. But at that point, I'm sure most here would prefer Hamilton over Burns when it comes down to that. Some sound like they would trade Burns for Hamilton now.

In three years, Pavs' 6M will be off the books. And yes, I would take Hamilton, who is a 25-year-old top pairing defenseman right now, at that point over a 35-year-old Burns.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

This assessment just isn't based in reality. He's not signing for 5 mil to play on the 3rd line and he shouldn't have to. He's a first line winger and he's better than every winger the sharks have depending on if you count Hertl a winger or a center. Even then its like apples and oranges. Meier may be better someday but that isn't now.

Of course he's not signing for 5M to play on the 3rd line. I'm saying that I would take him back if and only if that was the case.

Meier is better now. He's the far more responsible player. And to add to that, what makes Kane better than Pavelski? Potential? Pavelski has scored significantly more than Kane in every single season of their careers except for the 2013 shortened season.

 

[FunkyPhin]

I'd much rather use the money we would pay Kane to fix our top 4. Kane is great and he'd definitely help our offence, but honestly he's be more of a luxury, our defence NEEDS to be fixed. Trade Braun our 1st/ or a mix of things and get Hamilton, Hanifin, or someone like them

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

You have to count one of Hertl or Couture as a winger in this context and I don't think Kane is better than either of them. The TDL improvement in play has a lot to do with quality of competition and the lack of Joe Thornton as it may have to do with Kane's arrival. His play certainly gave the team a boost but they benefited from some bad teams on the schedule as well. I don't think that boost holds up over the long haul just because he's not that type of player. That said, I won't be mad if they re-sign him. There are just worthy concerns about signing him to term and the cap hit he'll command. I'm mostly concerned about his play style not having him in the lineup and wearing him into a decline like Lucic so his term would need to be short like four years tops.

I don't completely disagree with anything you said, but there is no way he signs anywhere for 4 years. This is his chance to cash in and frankly no one should blame him for taking advantage. He'll be north of 30 the next time he gets to UFA.

One thing about his arrival to the sharks... he clearly brought an element of speed in carrying the puck up the wing that had been missing from this roster for maybe a few seasons. Even Marleau wasn't blowing by Defensemen on a regular basis the last few years like Kane was prior to re aggravating or getting injured. It reminded me of young Milan Mihalek as far as a sharks player. That element shouldn't be undervalued considering the teams that are left in the playoffs.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I'd much rather use the money we would pay Kane to fix our top 4. Kane is great and he'd definitely help our offence, but honestly he's be more of a luxury, our defence NEEDS to be fixed. Trade Braun our 1st/ or a mix of things and get Hamilton, Hanifin, or someone like them

I think this is a bit of an over reaction. The D isn't nearly as bad off as it appeared. Burns was clearly hurt and the offense without someone like Heed in there suffered. They should be able to sign someone if needed or pull someone up from the minors for D help. They should trade braun & Martin simply for salary cap room but it could be part of a deal to bring in a forward or D if necessary. I'm optimistic that Heed gets a chance next season. Also I still think DW is going to be in on EK65.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

This is such a silly statement.

Hertl has played 79, 80, and 82 games in his five year career. That’s not even remotely comparable to Kane. JVR blows and I’d be furious if we signed him.

You really didn’t even try to argue my point. Just jokes about semantics and then tried to take an (ineffective) shot at Hertl. It’s seriously concerning that Kane has quite literally been a 40 point player his whole entire career outside the two seasons he was playing for a new contract.

I love you always attempt to denigrate people here by calling them silly or talk down to them as though you're some guru with immense inside knowledge of the sport. As someone else posted, Kane is top 20 in even strength goals over the last few years even with injuries. He's a first line winger whether you like it or not. If you don't understand the comment about his style of play being desirable then I can't help you. Power forwards get hurt, it's a reality. Sharks fans are spoiled because guys like Marleau and Jumbo has mostly been injury free but take a look at other teams and you see that many power players have a more extensive injury history than those 2. Guys like Kane don't hit UFA at this age very often so they can't sit around waiting for the perfect player.

You need to look up JVRs stats before you make such a wildly uninformed statement. 4 of the last 5 seasons he's been pretty much a 30 goal 50-60 point guy. He's not far off from Coutures career stat line and they are similar age. But Couture has historically had better teammates and been on the #1 PP with Burns and Jumbo. He'd be a very good addition to the sharks top 6 if everything else falls thru. Sharks could do a lot worse.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Of course he's not signing for 5M to play on the 3rd line. I'm saying that I would take him back if and only if that was the case.

Meier is better now. He's the far more responsible player. And to add to that, what makes Kane better than Pavelski? Potential? Pavelski has scored significantly more than Kane in every single season of their careers except for the 2013 shortened season.

I was considering Pavs as a center since that's what he played with Kane and until Jumbo or Tavares is signed he's the #1 center. Obviously Pavs has been a better winger when Jumbo has been healthy but I'm not convinced that Kane wouldn't drop 40 goals with a healthy Jumbo age 33 to 37 too. Pats is clearly overmatched when his line mates are injured against a fast team. When Kane(Meier) and Donskoi were playing well Pavs looked great. He's insanely intelligent but you can't think your legs faster. Kane can generate scoring chances on his own with just his physical abilities.

Kane is definitely better than Meier as of this moment. Meier may overtake him as early as next season but right now Meier is barely a 20 goal scorer with 42 career points in almost a season and a half. Kanes been better than that in almost every season he's played especially if you look at ppg.

 

[exchequer]

Pretty good company. I'm all for signing Tavares and that should be priority#1. But we can grab Kane as well and hopefully we can get him for 6M or less.

I'll take the other Kane on that list instead

 

[Juxtaposer]

I love you always attempt to denigrate people here by calling them silly or talk down to them as though you're some guru with immense inside knowledge of the sport. As someone else posted, Kane is top 20 in even strength goals over the last few years even with injuries. He's a first line winger whether you like it or not. If you don't understand the comment about his style of play being desirable then I can't help you. Power forwards get hurt, it's a reality. Sharks fans are spoiled because guys like Marleau and Jumbo has mostly been injury free but take a look at other teams and you see that many power players have a more extensive injury history than those 2. Guys like Kane don't hit UFA at this age very often so they can't sit around waiting for the perfect player.

You need to look up JVRs stats before you make such a wildly uninformed statement. 4 of the last 5 seasons he's been pretty much a 30 goal 50-60 point guy. He's not far off from Coutures career stat line and they are similar age. But Couture has historically had better teammates and been on the #1 PP with Burns and Jumbo. He'd be a very good addition to the sharks top 6 if everything else falls thru. Sharks could do a lot worse.

Excuse me if I don’t see Kane’s ability to get himself injured all the time to be a positive. Meier plays just as rough, if not moreso, and seems to be alright.

Okay, get this... JVR.... is just as bad defensively as he is offensively. For every goal he contributes up front, he contributes to against him defensively. He’s feasted on third pairings behind the Matthews and Kadri lines, and still come out negative. He had a career best shooting percentage this season and he’s looking for his last big contract. Most importantly, he’s an atrocious playoff player. I watched a lot of Leafs games this season and I can confidently say that I want nothing to do with JVR. If you’re just stat-watching, yeah, JVR looks pretty good. But if you’re actually watching him play...

I was being semi-facetious about Kane not being a first line winger, but let’s jump onto that for a second. Kane is a great even strength goal-scorer, no one can deny that. But that’s literally all he’s good at. Of course, it’s one of the most important things to be good at. But it’s not the only thing you need to be called a first line winger. Let’s say you have a player who scores 25 even strength goals per season, playing 20 minutes a game, and that’s it. Yes, that’s an excellent even strength goal scoring rate, but would you all him a first liner just because he scores even strength goals at a first line rate in first line minutes? I wouldn’t. There is a lot more to hockey than just putting the puck in the net at even strength. There’s playmaking, and special teams, and driving play, and preventing goals from going in your own net. Kane is not particularly good at any of those things.

And yes, we do need to wait around for the perfect player. Good unrestricted free agents are ALWAYS very overpaid. There are only two cases in which an NHL team should ever sign an unrestricted free agent: when it’s a superstar who is worth overpaying (Stamkos, Tavares, Niedermayer, even Suter arguably) or when it’s an extreme bargain (Eric Staal comes to mind, Schlemko). The very good but not great players, which Kane is, never work out. Paul Stastny, Zach Parise (another guy whose “playstyle” makes him injured all the time) for example.

If Kane wants to make himself available to the Sharks at a bargain price, then I’m happy to have him. But $7M for multiple seasons is crazy talk.

 

[LadyStanley]

Right, if we can come to a preliminary agreement with Tavares during the negotiating period (or if the Isles extend him, or if DW learns that another team has an agreement with JT) then it makes sense to extend Kane pre-July if he fits under the cap. My point is just that Tavares should far and away be the priority, even if that means losing out on both Tavares and Kane as a result. Important to keep in mind that we would give up our 2019 1st round pick to Buffalo if we re-sign Kane. A Sharks team with Kane but no Tavares could very possibly miss the playoffs and that could end up being a lottery pick.

I thought that the pick was lottery protected?

 

[stator]

I've read that it is lottery protected, but I also recall if that protection kicks in, the 1st round draft pick slides to the next year.

 

[Sharksrule04]

And I think you heavily underestimate how important having three legitimate defensive pairings is and what a secondary offensive point option is to winning teams. It doesn't necessarily have to be Green but they have to get someone who is an actual threat to people to score to open up the ice for forwards down low and around the net. Kane's effect on the game is physicality and goal scoring. Certainly two aspects you'd like to have on your team but guys like Meier, Boedker, Pavelski, and Donskoi would all be better as 200 foot players. While Boedker and Donskoi don't have the goal-scoring acumen that Kane has, they're better playmakers, they're better defensively, and they're better at hanging on to pucks. The honest truth is that Kane doesn't belong on a top line for a good team either because of all his other deficiencies. I think truly strong depth on defense is vastly more important than even a legitimate top line winger. Wingers just don't have that same impact on the game overall that a blue liner does.

Yea that is true when comparing a top pairing d-man to a top level winger. However, a top 6 winger does have a bigger impact on the game overall than a bottom pairing d-man. If he doesn't than he shouldn't be a top 6 winger.

 

[Sharksrule04]

You have to count one of Hertl or Couture as a winger in this context and I don't think Kane is better than either of them. The TDL improvement in play has a lot to do with quality of competition and the lack of Joe Thornton as it may have to do with Kane's arrival. His play certainly gave the team a boost but they benefited from some bad teams on the schedule as well. I don't think that boost holds up over the long haul just because he's not that type of player. That said, I won't be mad if they re-sign him. There are just worthy concerns about signing him to term and the cap hit he'll command. I'm mostly concerned about his play style not having him in the lineup and wearing him into a decline like Lucic so his term would need to be short like four years tops.

I put Couture over Kane any day. Playoff Hertl was far superior to Kane and pretty much everyone on our team. Regular season Hertl is still very good but until he starts producing at a higher rate I can't rate him as highly as everyone else. I think he has the capability of 60+ pts and 25-30 goals but I need to see it happen. Otherwise he's just a great possession player who produces at an ok 2nd line rate. I do have high hopes for him next season though.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yea that is true when comparing a top pairing d-man to a top level winger. However, a top 6 winger does have a bigger impact on the game overall than a bottom pairing d-man. If he doesn't than he shouldn't be a top 6 winger.

Except other than even strength goal scoring, Kane is not a top level winger. His overall game is basically 2nd line level whereas the blue liner I'm advocating for bringing in is a 3rd pairing d-man at even strength and a top power play unit d-man. A 20 minute a night 30-40 point d-man is a top four equivalent. And this team needs that a lot more than they need someone like Kane. That d-man helps lead to sustainability. Kane doesn't.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I put Couture over Kane any day. Playoff Hertl was far superior to Kane and pretty much everyone on our team. Regular season Hertl is still very good but until he starts producing at a higher rate I can't rate him as highly as everyone else. I think he has the capability of 60+ pts and 25-30 goals but I need to see it happen. Otherwise he's just a great possession player who produces at an ok 2nd line rate. I do have high hopes for him next season though.

Hertl's possession game alone is worth more than anything Kane does.