2017-18 roster talk: the positive perfect power of nine
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Striiker
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FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
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I prefer to have the best players on the ice and not label guys "top 6 or bust". The job of guys on the 4th line is still the same as the guys in the top 9- outscore the opponent. It wasn't an attack on Leier. He has played well and timing is everything in sports. He has a spot locked up for the time being and Martel has to have a big year this year to force the team to avoid putting him on waivers next year. Just saying I prefer Martel in a vacuum.
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Jtown
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You can't just attribute small stature to injuries when pretty much all hockey players suffer injuries of some sort. Bigger forwards become less productive over time as well. Guys like Datsyuk, ray whitney, steve sullivan, st louis , have shown you can produce later in your career as a diminutive forward.
whitstifier
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It's hockey. Everyone gets dinged up over time. "Big" guys drift from playing styles of their younger days as they age and get injured, too. However, Giroux and Weal play nothing like Parise.
The team last year couldn't transition the puck effectively from the blue line. And no wonder... Schultz, a broken Streit, Manning and MacDonald got significant playing time. None are effective NHL puck movers.
Your size narrative makes no sense. The Blackhawks are one of the smallest teams in the league, yet they're consistent contenders. Kane, damn his soul, looks to have a long and successful career. Keith has been incredibly effective despite his smallish size.
This isn't 1970. Players can't hide brass knuckles under their gloves or whip out stiletto knives and start stabbing people. The NHL player of today dopes up on cocaine and PCP and cortisone shots so they don't feel pain. Everyone thought Macdonald was brave for playing on one leg. They don't realize that he just heard his leg break and hopped up on the wrong leg.
Jtown
Registered User
I disagree with that thinking. The nhl just like any sport has a wide variety of roles that need to be filled by its players. Claude giroux is one of the best pkers ive ever seen in my life. He formed the best pk tandem i've ever seen with richards. Those two had so many short handed chances it was unfair. Yet as our team leaned on giroux more and more on offense his time on the pk dried up. Why? He is more valuable to us on offense than he is killing pk. Less time on the pk means less wear and tear on his body , and now we can keep him fresh for specifically what we need him for and that is offense.
If every line is designed to do the same thing, then why would you even put the 4th line out there? They would be the 4th worst line at everything. Ozone faceoff i would want the first line out there every time. Dzone faceoff, lets get the 1st line out there again.
You have hard situations in the nhl, then you have easier situations in the nhl. PP, Pk, ozone faceoff, dzone faceoff, Top line opponent, 4th line opponent. If you approach team building with your philosophy in mind you are not building a team that can adjust to the different scenario's an ice hockey game can bring.
While i do believe that changes have occured from the traditional mindset of building a hockey roster, there is no doubt that players have skillsets that allow them to be used a versatile way in a lineup. Having a guy like martel may be redundant with konecny and weal having similar skillsets. Having a guy like leier on the flyers is unique when only raffl plays a similar role.
Appleyard
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Just to say that right now:
Kase is 5'11. For sure over 170lbs though... he is a lot thicker than 2 years ago when he was first listed at 170lbs. I'd guess ~175-180lbs.
Lycksell is 5'11 and 185lbs.
Strawberry Fields
12x Calder Cup Champs
It's okay, I understand you.
She is from a long time ago, in a galaxy far away. Nevermind.
I've witnessed many times in classes where the teacher or professor references some show or song or band from decades ago and I'll be the only one in the class who gets it. It always makes me feel so bad for the instructor.
Captain Dave Poulin
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It's okay, I understand you.
I've witnessed many times in classes where the teacher or professor references some show or song or band from decades ago and I'll be the only one in the class who gets it. It always makes me feel so bad for the instructor.
You should see what it's like when you add the layer of a foreign language and you are standing in front of everyone just saying the most clever s**t in the world and they are all just staring at you blankly
I have spent the last 49 years wallowing in self-deprecation to make people laugh, so I don't mind at all. Also, they all want to hug me all the time and say "Professor you are the cutest teacher." 
Appleyard
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Flyers seemingly disagree.
As the Patrick line and Laughton line have had identical zone starts (both 65% OZ ratio) and when Patrick was with Simmonds+Weal they had toughest starts on the team (31% OZ ratio).
And Patrick has tougher ZS and QoC over season so far than Laughton.
Patrick: 51% ZS ratio, 52.38 Corsi QoC, 50.69 ExGF QoC
Laughton: 57% ZS ratio, 51.74 Corsi QoC, 50.33 ExGF QoC
After Couturier Patrick has been the center facing 2nd toughest opponents.
Appleyard
Registered User
Tbf to Giroux he has played the 6th most games of any NHL player since the start of his first full year in the league.
He has had injuries... but everyone in the NHL gets injured unless you are called Andrew Cogliano. Who - coincidentally - is one of the smallest regular forwards in the NHL at 5'10 and 177lbs, and is a pretty scrappy player who PKs etc.
JojoTheWhale
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You kind of answered your own question here. It's the wear and tear and endurance from shift to shift, otherwise you would just keep sending your best players over the boards.
Plus the number of skilled players on that level and their cap hits are your limiting factors -- if there were enough 2nd line quality players out there, teams would run them out there as a 4th line.
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
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One of the biggest players in the organization has already had to leave 3 games early this season.
I have no idea how you got all of that out of what I posted. I'm confused. Do you disagree that the goal of every line should be to outscore the opponent?
Jtown
Registered User
in a vaccum of course. but this game is not played in a vaccum. If you are depending on your 4th line to score goals to win you are not going to win.
FLYguy3911
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You are taking "outscore" to mean I want them to score goals at all costs and ignore defense. You can be average or below-average at generating scoring chances and goals and still outscore the opposition. What you want to avoid is a situation where you are trotting 76 and 78 out there and the best thing that can happen is the other team doesn't score. It looks like the organization is finally getting away from that with all of the added depth they have acquired the last few years. They are going to have some legit talent on the 4th line in the coming years and it's going to pay off over time.
Jtown
Registered User
They already have legit talent. This is the most talented 4th line i've ever seen the flyers ice.
Still a small sample set. Those road games the opposing coaches put their top lines against Patrick.
I 've either watched or been at 98% percent of those games and Giroux is still as talented as ever but as he has gotten older he has progressively become more perimeter less tenacious. I attribute that to the pounding he has taken and injuries he has suffered that he gamely plays through. He seems healthy now and tenacious. Hopefully he can maintain it now that he is at wing and takes less pounding (just on face-offs alone).
deadhead
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That's why I put the ages up, the guys who weren't invited to training camp don't have updated numbers.
Martel is 23, he's not going to get much bigger.
18-19 year olds are still growing, and often get much stronger as they mature.
I doubt Frost will be 170 lbs when he turns 21.
deadhead
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Yes. The goal is for the team to outscore the other team.
Since you are constrained by the amount of minutes you can use any player, in a shift, in a period, in a game, in a season, you have to balance ice time among your forwards. So you want to optimize both your scoring and minimize your opponent's scoring.
You do so with matchups, trying to get your best players matched up where they can score, but also by getting your best defensive players matched up against your opponent's best scorers. However, some matchups aren't as simple, speed v size, skill v tenacity (grinders), and so on. And then you have the defensive pairs to boot.
This would be a complex Operations Research problem even without the various rules governing changes, face offs, injuries, special teams, etc. So a coach has to do this on the fly, night to night, against different opponents with different types of lineups. Having a flexible group of forward lines helps, but you never have the perfect players, you have to improvise.
Flyers have moved from the "grinder" 4th line whose primary role is to eat minutes to rest the top three lines (reflecting a lack of depth, first do no harm) to a "speed" checking line that can be matched against top scoring lines or against slow grinder lines, depending on opponent and game situation.
Leier is a good fit for the speed checking line, NAK would be, Martel would be a disaster in that role. Because you have to be fast and be physical in that role.
Leier's problem is he has the heart but not the body to sustain that role for 80 games.
Which is why I expect NAK to replace him eventually.
FLYguy3911
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This makes no sense. Once again you are contradicting yourself.
deadhead
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What contradiction? Raffl, Laughton and Leier are all physical checking forwards who don't shy away from contact. They're not big, slow thugs, but they're not figure skaters either.
Konency would actually fit with this group in that he's willing to play physical, he's just 2-3 years from being strong enough that anyone would notice.
Konency would actually fit with this group in that he's willing to play physical, he's just 2-3 years from being strong enough that anyone would notice.
BringBackHakstol
Registered User
The 4th line is not a checking line. A checking line is a line used to matchup against scoring lines because they excel at defense. That's not the way this 4th line is being used.
There's no reason a team with enough talent can't put scorers on a 4th line, or any line. Scoring is at least as good as preventing a goal. It's simple.
There's no reason a team with enough talent can't put scorers on a 4th line, or any line. Scoring is at least as good as preventing a goal. It's simple.
Captain Dave Poulin
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I'm not good with science - would his center of gravity be lower on the moon if he were to play on the moon with the moon's different gravity? No, wait, it would be higher, like up in his neck (pun always intended). So he'd have to play on Krypton to really achieve that low center of gravity you crave. Or, as you said, we wait 2-3 years while he eats ham sandwiches.
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