Josepho
i want the bartkowski thread back
Olson is born in March of 1997. I wouldn't consider that to be late, it's basically middle of the pack.
Pre-Game Talk: 2016 Canucks Development Camp
- Thread starter thefeebster
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Olson is born in March of 1997. I wouldn't consider that to be late, it's basically middle of the pack.
I am more impressed by his goal production last year with the Hitmen.
I was already curious about Stukel prior to this past week. His performance at the Development Camp only reaffirms my thoughts about him. He has talent. He is also a rather unrefined player, so he needs to work hard to polish his game. That said, he has a fairly attractive skill set.
I am aware that you don't think as highly of him based on your previous comments. You have stated that you don't see a lot of NHL-style goals, but I disagree. He has enough speed to separate himself from the opposition, he has good hands and has shown an ability to deke the opposing goaltender quickly while moving at full speed down the ice, and he has an above average shot so that he doesn't necessarily have to score from in close. His goal-scoring tendencies are varied; for example, he likes to drive through the crease at full speed. He also likes to park on the right side of the net near the goal mouth so that he can bury rebounds and setups from his teammates.
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I won't pretend to be an expert on Stukel, since my viewings are limited to his goal highlights vid and I know those aren't accurate reflections of how a player plays. But having said that I really don't think the goals I saw translate very well. Too much based on his speed, didn't see the great shot, very limited passing. Looked very much like a classic scores-cause-he's-fast-and-that's-it junior player. He could surprise and I'll gladly eat crow if he does, just not the "type" of player I see making the jump to a higher level.
What happened to this kid in Vancouver?....were the Giants really that much of train-wreck?....basically goes from being a draft afterthought on the West Coast to a guy who filled the net in Calgary....kind of depressing if you're a Giants fan.
I notice that you have compared his goals at the WHL level with Emerson Etem's. That is fair, considering there are some similarities. That said, there are major differences as well.
One thing I think Stukel has that a player like Emerson Etem doesn't is total control (of the puck and of his direction) on his skates. He seems sturdier, and also demonstrates more finesse with the puck than Etem. Etem relies heavily on blistering straight-line speed, although he doesn't quite have the hands to keep up. Stukel has better puck control, east-west movement, and also positions himself better to receive a pass, or, better yet, to steal the puck from the opposition. He can shield the puck and maneuver around an opposition player. This is a player who knows where to be to retrieve the puck, knows how to get around the ice effectively with it, and has good enough vision to create chances offensively for himself and his teammates. When the opposition chases him, it opens up his teammates who he will sometimes pass to. Etem, on the other hand, either rushes the puck up the ice in a straight line, or floats around waiting for a pass. He's not particularly shifty. He creates offense with his straight-line breakaway speed, and by burying feeds off the rush. Stukel looks like he knows where to position himself offensively to create offense from a standstill and can get himself into a position with the puck to score, whereas Etem needs a playmaker on his line to be effective.
Etem has the skill set to be an effective NHL player, but I don't think his style of play or offensive approach works at the NHL level. He was selected in the first round of the 2010 NHL Draft for a reason. This is a case of a player having a lot of tools, but no toolbox. He doesn't use his speed to any desired effect. There are players in the NHL who use their speed well, but so far he isn't one of them. He has a shot, but doesn't do anything with it. Throughout his NHL career, he has only averaged 1.5 shots per game, and those shots aren't very noteworthy either. In the WHL, he excelled with highly-skilled linemates. The Hitmen don't quite have the same degree of talent that those Medicine Hat teams did. Stukel is asked to do more on his own than Etem ever had to.
As mentioned before, Stukel also missed a year of development. Etem's first draft-eligible season was his 17-year-old season. Stukel was 18 years old this past season, so taking the lost year into account, they were practically at the same stage of their development in the respective years that they were drafted.
When Jakob joined the Vancouver Giants for the 2012-13 season at the age of 15, he had two goals, two assists, four points in six games. Then an ACL tear wiped out his 2013-14 season, which would have been his rookie season.
One of the main criticisms of Stukel this past season was his lack of consistency. He would put together very impressive scoring streaks, then slow down for a period. He was by far the Hitmen's best goal scorer in 2015-16 with 34 goals, 56 points in 57 games. If he can find consistency and play at the top of his game all year long, his numbers could easily be even better next season. That would be the next step for him to take in his development in addition to improving as a player overall. If he does this, then he will become a very noteworthy prospect for the Canucks. He is on the right track thus far.
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You must have read my mind! Hutton was the guy I was thinking of when I made that post.
WhiteCurse
Registered User
You are not giving Etem enough credit for what he did in Jr, he would flat out take over games. He was a alot of fun to watch, i thought he would have turned out better
Bankerguy
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- Apr 28, 2013
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Yeah, he took over games occasionally in his draft + 1...and often in his overage year ....BUT in his draft season i dont even think he was a ppg player...and if i'm not mistaken he played with a bunch of decent overage players in that year
Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
He had 37 goals and 65 points in 72 games.
in his draft+1 season (same age as Stukel) he had 45 goals and 80 pts in 65 games.
Etem was ten times the prospect that Stukel is.
That is rather unfair to Stukel, who missed his entire 16-year-old season with a torn ACL. As far as I can tell, Emerson Etem never stopped playing hockey for any extended period of time as a teenager. From the age of 15, which is as far back as EliteProspects goes, Etem played most of his games and developed at a normal rate.
Stukel lost an entire year. Prior to that, he had a very promising youth hockey résumé.
http://vancouvergiants.com/giant-futures-jakob-stukel
He ended up with 30 goals for the Valley West Hawks, which is more than either Kane or Gallagher scored at the same level.
He also had a fairly strong initial stint with the Giants in 2012-13, scoring 2 goals, 4 points in 6 games as a 15-year-old.
This past season is what his 17-year-old season should have been. Instead, he was a year behind because when he finally got back on to the ice for the Giants after his injury, he was a 17-year-old playing with the fundamentals of someone who had just graduated from the Major Midget level, had only played six games in the WHL, and who had not played hockey in over a full calendar year. This is a fairly severe handicap for an aspiring hockey player at that age.
The Giants also cycled through three coaches that season, which logically would have made it more difficult for him to learn. His rookie season, as a result, was underwhelming.
In his sophomore season -- this season -- he really started to put things together again.
If not for that torn ACL, I think Jakob Stukel would have received much higher regard as a prospect. With the Calgary Hitmen this season, Jakob scored 34 goals, 56 points in 57 games, led the WHL in powerplay goals, and scored ten goals more than anyone else on the Hitmen roster. At the same stage in his development, Emerson Etem scored 37 goals, 65 points in 72 games.
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I really like Stukel as a prospect. MS thinks he has bad hockey IQ, but the scouting reports I read suggest that he actually has good playmaking vision. He was more of a goal scorer last season, but that could be because the Hitmen lacked guys who can put the puck in the net.
Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
Acctually you are the one that is underrating Etem as a prospect. He was a 1st rounder that for a long time people thought would be a top 6 winger, seen as one of the best players in the WHL, and scored the most goals in the whl in his draft+2 season, and was 5th in WHL goals scoed in his draft+1 season.
Etem became a ppg AHL player, but he hasnt got it together in NHL. If Stukel comes even close to being what Etem is now he is a successfull pick.
Im not trying to underrate Stukel here but you are underrating Etem who was an elite prospect. Etem is bigger, just as fast and better scorer IMO.
RobertKron
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- Sep 1, 2007
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You'd think they'd have sorted that out before they signed him to an ELC a year early so that he could play pro instead of an overage year and then ended up having him play junior. I mean, it all seemed so well planned aside from that one detail.
RobertKron
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- Sep 1, 2007
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Etem never played an overage junior season. His draft year he scored at a similar pace to his team's top-scoring overager, and outscored him in the playoffs.
Johansen and Neiderreiter went 4 and 5 overall out of the dub that year, and neither of them were ppg players.
I didn't chime in when you posted your last post but I will now. Given Etem's pedigree, Etem was certainly a better prospect at the same age as Stukel. But 10 times better? Etem was NEVER an elite prospect. He was considered a boom or bust pick for a reason. His skating and goal scoring ability as a prospect is pretty elite. But there were questions about his ability to translate his goal scoring ability to the NHL. I wasn't high on him at the time of the draft.
With that said, Etem's development in the NHL stalled but his development was, like you suggested, real good for a while. His draft +1 and +2 years were real good. After what he did in the 2012-2013 playoffs, I thought I was wrong in my assessment of him. Etem was for real. But that hasn't happened so far. I say so far because he's Canucks property.
I am hesitant to call any draft pick who fails to spend more than one full year in the NHL as a successful pick, so as of right now, I can't say that if Stukel comes even close to Etem that would be a successful pick. I do think Etem can at least be a bottom 6 player in the NHL. The problem with Etem in the NHL has always been that he's inconsistent. When he's good he is real good. Top 6 good. When he's bad he's not NHL caliber. Stukel probably has a more rounded skillset, but his NHL caliber tools aren't as good as Etem's.
Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
A 60 goal scorer in the WHL is an elite prospect IMO. If Stukel become an NHL player at all hes a succesfull pick.
Etem was ranked 17th overall in Bob McKenzies draft rating one spot below Tarasenko. Stukel was picked in the 6th round in his overage year.
From Bobs final 2010 draft ranking:
There is an outstanding chance that two California kids - the goal-scoring speedster Etem and the offensively-gifted Jr. A player Bennett - will be chosen in the first round and quite possibly in the top 20. Jonathan Blum, drafted 23rd overall by Nashville in 2007, holds the unofficial record for being highest-drafted Californian, although Bobby Ryan, taken by Anaheim No. 2 behind Sidney Crosby in 2005, was a transplant from New Jersey who did spend some of his formative years in southern California.
In fact, Ryan used to babysit Bennett when the latter was nine years old.
Etem and Bennett were originally products of in-line hockey but they also represent a rapidly expanding SoCal ice hockey culture that has both quantity and quality, which is turning out some of the elite minor hockey programs in all of North America and some flashy offensive prospects.
Both Etem and Bennett are fascinating human interest stories.
Etem is from Long Beach, Calif., who went to Shattuck-St. Marys prep school, the U.S. development program and Medicine Hat of the WHL. He has been training with the noted T.R. Goodman since he was 14 years old, working out in the summer with pros such as Rob Blake, Wayne Simmonds and others. He's an accomplished artist (drawing) and his notoriety in SoCal for being an elite hockey talent has attracted the interest of none other than rapper turned hockey fan Snoop Dogg, amongst others.
http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=24944
Bob McKenzie: The California kid from Long Beach comes from a family of elite athletes and is arguably the fastest skater in the entire draft. With a hard, heavy shot that allows him to score off the rush from far out, it’s difficult to envision the Medicine Hat Tiger winger as anything but a mid-first round pick.
http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/story/?id=325285
I believe that Etem has an elite skill set. I mentioned earlier in this thread that his skill set and production at the WHL level warranted his selection in the first round of his draft year. I don't think that he has the instincts to excel at the NHL level, though. This, I believe, is the barrier that prevents him from elevating his game to the standard that people once believed he could play at in the NHL.
With that in mind, I don't think that Stukel has that problem.
Here are all of Etem's goals with the Medicine Hat Tigers from his draft season:
He either bursts up the ice with his speed and forces the puck into the net or one-times opportunities created for him by his linemates off the rush. Most were blindsided by his flashiness, but he relied far more on forcing the puck to the net than on creativity; there isn't much variety there. Etem has not adapted very well to the NHL, and I suspect that it's because of a lack of vision, adaptability, and anticipation. He lacks hockey IQ.
CanaFan suggested that Stukel does not score NHL-style goals, citing Emerson Etem as a player who could not adapt to the NHL. Stukel has shown qualities suggesting that hockey IQ will not be a major obstacle for him. I think that sets him apart from Etem, even though Etem was undoubtedly regarded as a higher-end prospect.
The bottom line is that Stukel's upside isn't limited. CanaFan suggested that he doesn't score NHL-style goals and that his game won't translate to the NHL for the same reasons that Etem's game hasn't. I disagree with that assertion. The core obstacles that block Etem from reaching his potential aren't present in Stukel's game. At this point, Stukel has the potential to be better at the NHL level than the seven-goal, twelve-point player that Etem currently is. That's the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter that Etem was a first-round draft pick -- at this point, we can acknowledge that he has not lived up to that potential. It hardly makes sense to regard Stukel's upside as limited based on what Etem has done at the NHL level.
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Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
MS who wathces a lot of WHL hockey describes Stukel as a low IQ player, I dont see the greatness of Stukels IQ. This is a player with 22 assists in his draft plus one season .
I dont see the qualitys that Stukel has that Etem doesnt have. I see him as a smaller , softer Etem. All the goals I saw from Stukels highlites are the same as the ones you desribe Etem scoring, and in the 2 times a watched Stukel (on TV) he didnt look like anything more than a complementary junior player.
Hopefully you are right and Im wrong, I have othing against Stukel I just dont see him as great prospect.
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Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
MS knows his WHL, I trust him. Here is scouting report from the hockeywriters:
Stukel is deadly when he’s left alone anywhere near the net with the puck. He’s blessed with a really quick, accurate shot, and he can get it off from some really bad angles. He’s also pretty effective at puck distribution, and the attention he gets from opposition defenders often opens up his linemates for scoring opportunities. Stukel thrives when he gets time and space to operate, and his offensive production is heavily skewed towards his power-play time.
For all his offensive bluster, Stukel isn’t a complete player. He occasionally gets out-muscled in corner battles, his play away from the puck is prone to lapses, and his game-to-game consistency isn’t great. (Sometimes he’ll score multiple points in consecutive games, sometimes he’ll go stone cold for several games.)
But very few players in the WHL are as dangerous with the puck as Stukel, and that should be enough to get him drafted by some NHL club.
http://thehockeywriters.com/jakob-stukel-the-next-ones-2016-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/
From Mckeens draft comments:
Jacob Stukel was well worth a flyer in the sixth following his 35-goal campaign in Calgary...while he lacks size and ideal defensive tendencies there is no denying his ability to put the puck in the net.
http://www.mckeenshockey.com/nhl-blog/nhl-draft-review-grades-vancouver-canucks/
Ryp37
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- Nov 6, 2011
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Got any other scouting sites that say that or do you just live and die with hockey prospects?
Have you seen him play?
rune74
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- Oct 10, 2008
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JV is overrated and a bad pick at 6. Hes still ok and hopefully improves and makes the team and makes me eat my words. Right now Stukel looks pretty good so I THINK it would be good if hes better. I thought was funny people complained about Ronning not being picked above Stukel. Clear now?
Clear, but not right....at least not by how I judge things.
thefeebster
Registered User
I have both the 2015&2016 Blackbook and they never use the term high IQ in Stukel's writeup, they didn't even provide a write up in 2015.
In 2016, they said he has a good offensive mind and skills to at least produce at the junior level but also contradict this slightly by saying he fails to see passing options. They also criticized his play away from the puck, his 200 foot game and his compete. HP did not include Stukel in their top 211.
Their description fits the others listed here as well as MS's. It also fits with what I saw. Whenever I watched the Hitmen for Bean, Stukel never struck me as a high IQ player. Average IQ at best.
DL44
Status quo
According to Linden, he has grown and inch to be 6'3 and is 14-15 pounds heavier than last yr.
(I don't know how much he weighed last yr.. but i would 'guess' 190 would be ballpark now.)
Really looking forward to seeing him in game action with Team Canada this summer.
He should look pretty imposing at that size vs a lot of the Jr players.. (mind you they are all huge these days)
