Confirmed Signing with Link: 2016-17 Prospect Signings Thread

[PG Canuck]

Was previously committed to playing NCAA hockey this year.

I'm not the greatest at age requirements, but he didn't have to be drafted this year? Or was he drafted and I'm just not seeing it? I'm missing something.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Two questions:

- why is Miroslav Svoboda (Edm) on the list? He was drafted out of the Czech Republic junior ranks and has remained in the Czech Republic since then. That one is confusing to me.

- where is Evan Smith (Nsh)? He last played in the WHL in 2015-16. Did he retire?

 

[Seachd]

Two questions:

- why is Miroslav Svoboda (Edm) on the list? He was drafted out of the Czech Republic junior ranks and has remained in the Czech Republic since then. That one is confusing to me.

Likely because of his age when he was drafted.

 

[uncleben]

I'm not the greatest at age requirements, but he didn't have to be drafted this year? Or was he drafted and I'm just not seeing it? I'm missing something.

His draft was 2014, and he went undrafted.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Likely because of his age when he was drafted.

That makes sense, thanks.

 

[dotcommunism]

Is that the window for previously non-drafted North America players only, maybe?

As a counterexample,
Three years ago, in the 2014 draft, Lukas Sutter was redrafted.

If for the 2017 NHL Draft the window is January 1st, 1997 to September 15th, 1999, then (being under the same system), the 2014 NHL Draft window would've been January 1st, 1994 to September 15th, 1996, but Lukas Sutter was born October 4, 1993, outside of said window, yet was still draft eligible.

The CBA even says "All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, except: " and then lists 5 cases that don't cover what we're talking about (8.4(a)) (and bolded emphasis my own).
The CBA then later even specifies a hypothetical situation that may defy it: "if a Player is drafted for the first time at age 20 and re-enters the Entry Draft at age 22, the Club that selects him as a re-entry may retain the exclusive negotiating rights to the Player for only one (1) year..." (8.6 (a)(iii)).
By your time frame, (North American) players cannot re-enter at the age of 22.



I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I just don't know the answer myself and can't find a specific ruling about the cutoff for North American re-entries.

To be honest, the rules on draft eligibility as written seem ambiguous at best. Strictly speaking, it seems that when a player has been drafted then had his rights expire, he should be eligible for the draft in perpetuity (unless signed to an NHL contract per 10.1(d)).

Let me elaborate. For reference, the draft eligibility rules from the CBA in full:
8.4 Eligibility for Claim.
(a) All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, except:
(i) a Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;
(ii) a Player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;
(iii) a Player who previously played in the League and became a Free Agent pursuant to this Agreement;
(iv) a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d); and
(v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).

Obviously, for players who have never been drafted before, this is all rather straightforward. For someone who's never been drafted and played in North America, to be eligible for the 2017 NHL draft, the January 1, 1997 to September 15, 1999 window clearly applies (per 8.4(iv)). For players who did not play in North America at the provided ages, the window of January 1, 1996 to September 15, 1999 applies (per 8.4(v)).

The eligibility rules, however, don't seem to adequately cover players who have been previously drafted. Again, as written, a player who has been drafted once previously, is no longer on a reserve list, and has never signed an NHL SPC seems to be eligible for selection in the entry draft forever, as none of the five exclusions apply to him. Clearly, though, this isn't actually the case.

Now, perhaps, there is an alternate interpretation of (iv) or (v) out there that works better. For example, what if "has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft" is not to be interpreted in the obvious "there has never been a draft in which this player was selected" sense but in a somewhat non-intuitive "there has been an entry draft in which this player was not selected" way. Of course, the thing is the latter reading is redundant. If a player is 21, there must obviously be a previous draft in which that player wasn't selected (as a player cannot be drafted more than twice). The latter reading also cannot adequately deal with your counter example of Lukas Sutter. I think the intuitive meaning is the correct one, though it still doesn't help address the issue of previously drafted players.

Now, your Lukas Sutter point. Booba brought up on the previous page that players like Lukas Sutter and Brenden Kichton, who were re-drafted at 21, were originally drafted under the 2005 CBA. This is a point we should look into. Since they were previously drafted under the 2005 CBA, then perhaps their draft eligibility is dictated by that CBA and perhaps there is some discrepancy between the two CBAs that resolves this matter. However, best as I can tell, the two CBAs are absolutely identical as far as 8.4 goes (as is 8.10, which dictates what "age" means for draft purposes).

So, in the end, there doesn't seem to be any particularly clear answer beside the precedent we have which indicates that 21 year olds are eligible for re-entry into the draft, even though they'd be ineligible if they had never been drafted.

 

[PG Canuck]

His draft was 2014, and he went undrafted.

Thanks.

 

[uncleben]

To be honest, the rules on draft eligibility as written seem ambiguous at best. Strictly speaking, it seems that when a player has been drafted then had his rights expire, he should be eligible for the draft in perpetuity (unless signed to an NHL contract per 10.1(d)).

Let me elaborate. For reference, the draft eligibility rules from the CBA in full:
8.4 Eligibility for Claim.
(a) All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, except:
(i) a Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;
(ii) a Player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;
(iii) a Player who previously played in the League and became a Free Agent pursuant to this Agreement;
(iv) a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d); and
(v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).

Obviously, for players who have never been drafted before, this is all rather straightforward. For someone who's never been drafted and played in North America, to be eligible for the 2017 NHL draft, the January 1, 1997 to September 15, 1999 window clearly applies (per 8.4(iv)). For players who did not play in North America at the provided ages, the window of January 1, 1996 to September 15, 1999 applies (per 8.4(v)).

The eligibility rules, however, don't seem to adequately cover players who have been previously drafted. Again, as written, a player who has been drafted once previously, is no longer on a reserve list, and has never signed an NHL SPC seems to be eligible for selection in the entry draft forever, as none of the five exclusions apply to him. Clearly, though, this isn't actually the case.

Now, perhaps, there is an alternate interpretation of (iv) or (v) out there that works better. For example, what if "has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft" is not to be interpreted in the obvious "there has never been a draft in which this player was selected" sense but in a somewhat non-intuitive "there has been an entry draft in which this player was not selected" way. Of course, the thing is the latter reading is redundant. If a player is 21, there must obviously be a previous draft in which that player wasn't selected (as a player cannot be drafted more than twice). The latter reading also cannot adequately deal with your counter example of Lukas Sutter. I think the intuitive meaning is the correct one, though it still doesn't help address the issue of previously drafted players.

Now, your Lukas Sutter point. Booba brought up on the previous page that players like Lukas Sutter and Brenden Kichton, who were re-drafted at 21, were originally drafted under the 2005 CBA. This is a point we should look into. Since they were previously drafted under the 2005 CBA, then perhaps their draft eligibility is dictated by that CBA and perhaps there is some discrepancy between the two CBAs that resolves this matter. However, best as I can tell, the two CBAs are absolutely identical as far as 8.4 goes (as is 8.10, which dictates what "age" means for draft purposes).

So, in the end, there doesn't seem to be any particularly clear answer beside the precedent we have which indicates that 21 year olds are eligible for re-entry into the draft, even though they'd be ineligible if they had never been drafted.

Bizarre.
Although we cannot find the difference, I could believe it if the CBA changed such that Sutter could've been drafted but not a similar player wouldn't, however, I find that very bizarre. Pretty much if you are born with a late birthday (September 16-December 31), you're excluded from re-entry, if you go by that proposed window.

And again 8.6(a)(iii) even mentions the re-entry of a player at the age of 22, which the proposed window would disallow.

 

[BarDownBobo]

Hey folks, got a question for y'all about "defected" prospects rights. Specifically interested in how long the Oilers will hold Markus Niemelainen's rights. He was drafted out of the OHL, played his draft+1 in the OHL but will be returning to Finland this upcoming season. Does he still have to be signed by June 1st next year like other CHLers, or do they Oilers hold his rights for 4 years after his draft now like other Euros?

 

[Xoggz22]

Hey folks, got a question for y'all about "defected" prospects rights. Specifically interested in how long the Oilers will hold Markus Niemelainen's rights. He was drafted out of the OHL, played his draft+1 in the OHL but will be returning to Finland this upcoming season. Does he still have to be signed by June 1st next year like other CHLers, or do they Oilers hold his rights for 4 years after his draft now like other Euros?

I'm pretty certain the rules apply based on where drafted so he would only be Oilers property until June 1st next year.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

He needed to be signed by August 15, 2018, because he played one year in the USHL and three years of college.

Since he has not played 4 years in the NCAA, wouldn't the Sabres continue to hold his rights for one more season, regardless of where he plays in 2017-18?

I probably know this rule, but I am missing something here. How is Petersen allowed to leave college and the Sabres lose his rights?

 

[cwede]

Cal Petersen was not listed in the second post of this thread, with all the other currently un-signed NCAA players who need to be signed by August 15. Was that an omission, or is there a reason for that?

He needed to be signed by August 15, 2018, because he played one year in the USHL and three years of college.

Since he has not played 4 years in the NCAA, wouldn't the Sabres continue to hold his rights for one more season, regardless of where he plays in 2017-18?
I probably know this rule, but I am missing something here. How is Petersen allowed to leave college and the Sabres lose his rights?

The drafting team retains a NCAA player's rights for more years, and until August after his fourth NCAA season, AS LONG AS HE REMAINS ENROLLED into or throughout 4 NCAA seasons.
If he completes his 4-year college eligibility, drafting team has til August to sign him.
IF he leaves college before completing 4 years, his rights can expire sooner

also, note that "graduating class" does not even necessarily mean the class he entered with
a few years back, Jordan Samuels-Thomas entered Bowling Green, played 2 years, but then transferred to Quinnipiac, sat out a year, played 2 more, and his rights were still held until August after his 4th NCAA season

CBA excerpt:

ARTICLE 8
ENTRY DRAFT
8.6 Reserve List-Exclusive Rights.

8.6 (c) College Players.
(i) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time
of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student
prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and
remains a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college
class, his drafting Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for
his services through and including the August 15 following the graduation
of his college class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such
Player to retain such rights.
(ii) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time
of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student
prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and does
not remain a bona fide college student through the graduation of his
college class, his drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the
negotiation of his services until the later of: (a) the fourth June 1 following
his selection in the Entry Draft, or (b) thirty (30) days after NHL Central
Registry receives notice that the Player is no longer a bona fide college
student; provided that if the Player ceases to be a bona fide college student
on or after January 1 of an academic year and the Player: (1) is in his
fourth year of college and has commenced his fourth year of NCAA
eligibility, or (2) is in his fourth year of college and is scheduled to
graduate from college at the end of his fourth year, then in the
circumstances described in (1) or (2), the Club shall retain the exclusive
right of negotiation for such Player's services through and including the
August 15 following the date on which he ceases to be a bona fide college
student. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to
retain such rights.

 

[cwede]

Tucker Poolman falls under the Matt Benning / Justin Schultz loophole where they're able to declare free agency with one year of NCAA eligibility remaining, as he was drafted in 2013 and spent another year in the USHL before going to North Dakota.

So while he doesn't need to be signed, he can become a UFA on August 15, 2017 if he chooses.

as Poolman is signed , his case is no longer a question,
but as noted in my post with CBA excerpt,
as a player who had not enrolled in his 4th NCAA season, there was no "August 15th" date involved

as with Cal Peterson, such players are UFA with the later of either 4th post-draft June 1, or 30 days after formally leaving school

(look no further than your Schultz reference, he was UFA and signed before July ...)

not busting your chops, just adding my understandings, it is complicated

 

[Jag68Sid87]

SO, in Petersen's case he can go pro without signing with the Sabres because he played one year in the USHL before three years of college hockey after being drafted?

What happens if a player plays 2 seasons in the USHL after his draft year. Can he then only play 2 NCAA seasons and be declared a UFA?

 

[cwede]

SO, in Petersen's case he can go pro without signing with the Sabres because he played one year in the USHL before three years of college hockey after being drafted?
What happens if a player plays 2 seasons in the USHL after his draft year. Can he then only play 2 NCAA seasons and be declared a UFA?

USHL is irrelevent

Peterson goes free 30 days after formally leaving Notre Dame (if he declared that in April (more than 30 days before June 1), it he'd have gone free on June 1)

once draftee enrolls in college, drafting team gets the 4 full NCAA seasons and into August, as long as player remains enrolled

I guess there may be an opprtunity for draftee to be free after 2 USHL seasons, if player doesnt enroll in NCAA school until after 2 years after his draft day, but that's not a timing that reflects how NCAA schools add players

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Thanks. Not your fault but my head hurts.

Such a complicated rule.

 

[montreal]

SO, in Petersen's case he can go pro without signing with the Sabres because he played one year in the USHL before three years of college hockey after being drafted?

What happens if a player plays 2 seasons in the USHL after his draft year. Can he then only play 2 NCAA seasons and be declared a UFA?

the NCAA loophole is simple, if you get drafted and don't go directly to the NCAA the next season, you can become a UFA after your Junior year of college hockey. If you go directly to the NCAA after being drafted, you can't become a UFA until August 15th of the season you graduate. It doesn't matter what league you go play (since in order to be able to play in the NCAA it can't be considered a pro league or you lose your eligibility) or for how long, just matters if you go directly to the NCAA or not after being drafted.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

the NCAA loophole is simple, if you get drafted and don't go directly to the NCAA the next season, you can become a UFA after your Junior year of college hockey. If you go directly to the NCAA after being drafted, you can't become a UFA until August 15th of the season you graduate. It doesn't matter what league you go play (since in order to be able to play in the NCAA it can't be considered a pro league or you lose your eligibility) or for how long, just matters if you go directly to the NCAA or not after being drafted.

Thanks.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

the NCAA loophole is simple, if you get drafted and don't go directly to the NCAA the next season, you can become a UFA after your Junior year of college hockey. If you go directly to the NCAA after being drafted, you can't become a UFA until August 15th of the season you graduate. It doesn't matter what league you go play (since in order to be able to play in the NCAA it can't be considered a pro league or you lose your eligibility) or for how long, just matters if you go directly to the NCAA or not after being drafted.

Don't think that's 100% correct

What if you get drafted in 3rd year eligible for draft ?

 

[montreal]

Don't think that's 100% correct

What if you get drafted in 3rd year eligible for draft ?

It doesn't matter the age, it only matters if you go directly to the NCAA the next year after being draft or not.

 

[caley]

Some prospect news bubbles to the surface with all the trade/signing/expansion talk!

 

[Mortiest Morty]

Some prospect news bubbles to the surface with all the trade/signing/expansion talk!

Skilled at what? Barely putting up any points and getting shelled while he's on the ice? I'm only stat watching here, but they look really, really bad.

 

[cwede]

Some prospect news bubbles to the surface with all the trade/signing/expansion talk!

IIRC NSH has his rights for 30 days after withdrawing from college, which, depending on day he withdrew, may extend past July 1

 

[nomorekids]

I don't think Kivilhalme was in NSH's plans regardless

 

[Booba]

IIRC NSH has his rights for 30 days after withdrawing from college, which, depending on day he withdrew, may extend past July 1

It seems that the August 15 deadline also applies to Petersen and Kivihalme.



Last season, Matt Benning was in the same situation (Drafted in 2012 - Played one season in the USHL and 3 years in the NCAA)

Benning informed the Bruins in May that he would leave the NCAA after his freshman year. He became a UFA (presumably on August 15) and was signed by Edmonton on August 27.