WJC: 2016 — Finland Roster Talk

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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"Cherry-picking" or not the fact that both of these guys can't stop a beach ball in international games should still be cause for concern. Typically Finland still puts out solid teams in international play and saying it's the teams fault isn't an excuse. These guys will need to be lights out for Finland to win gold and I don't see it happening.
And like I said, it's a cause for zero concern because Saros and Husso - or most goalies in the past - weren't able to stop much anything either in practice tournaments, where those stats are from, yet stopped most of it when it counted. It's solely because in practice tournaments, they play in front of worse defenses than they do in the WJC. The teams aren't solid, because they're trying out players for the main event, and honing out kinks in the game plan.

Bottom line, we know what's behind those bad stats (you obviously don't), and we'll start worrying about it if they drop in club team play.


Or, if the club team stats don't count at all, should we by that logic say that for example the goalies for Team Canada are question marks, because they haven't played in any internationals at all yet? :laugh: Yeah, they've got nice looking numbers from playing in the minors, but what if they can't catch a beach ball when they don the NT jersey? Who can tell?
 
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nelsojc

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
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And like I said, it's a cause for zero concern because Saros and Husso - or most goalies in the past - weren't able to stop much anything either in practice tournaments, where those stats are from, yet stopped most of it when it counted. It's solely because in practice tournaments, they play in front of worse defenses than they do in the WJC. The teams aren't solid, because they're trying out players for the main event, and honing out kinks in the game plan.

Bottom line, we know what's behind those bad stats (you obviously don't), and we'll start worrying about it if they drop in club team play.


Or, if the club team stats don't count at all, should we by that logic say that for example the goalies for Team Canada are question marks, because they haven't played in any internationals at all yet? :laugh: Yeah, they've got nice looking numbers from playing in the minors, but what if they can't catch a beach ball when they don the NT jersey? Who can tell?

Mason McDonald firstly has played for Canada in many international tournaments. I'll stop arguing with you, but when Canada wins the world juniors again because the Finnish D and goalies were a bust, enjoy.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Mason McDonald firstly has played for Canada in many international tournaments. I'll stop arguing with you, but when Canada wins the world juniors again because the Finnish D and goalies were a bust, enjoy.
What does McDonald have to his name? One U17 Challenge with stats that actually seem quite "brutal" to me, and an U18 WC with nice numbers... but hey, Veini Vehviläinen posted same kind of numbers in the same tournament a year later. What does that tell us, hmm?

It tells us that a) practice tournaments don't matter much and b) we have a pretty clueless guy here, thinking our goalies are bust.


Defense lacks star power, that I can admit, but I don't view them as pushovers either. Most of them are already playing among men, after all. So they should be able to handle it when placed back among juniors.
 
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nelsojc

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
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What does McDonald have to his name? One U17 Challenge with stats that actually seem quite "brutal" to me, and an U18 WC with nice numbers... but hey, Veini Vehviläinen posted same kind of numbers in the same tournament a year later. What does that tell us, hmm?

It tells us that a) practice tournaments don't matter much and b) we have a pretty clueless guy here, thinking our goalies are bust.


Defense lacks star power, that I can admit, but I don't view them as pushovers either. Most of them are already playing among men, after all. So they should be able to handle it when placed back among juniors.

The fact they play against men doesn't really impress me one bit. The Finnish league doesn't have any elite level scorers like Matthews, Marner, Strome, Nylander, Point etc. They will fold
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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The fact they play against men doesn't really impress me one bit. The Finnish league doesn't have any elite level scorers like Matthews, Marner, Strome, Nylander, Point etc. They will fold
Straight out comparing junior hockey to a men's pro league now? Wow you ARE clueless. :laugh:

You know I'll be back here, quoting the heck out of you, when the tournament starts rolling and neither the Finnish D nor goalies show any signs of folding, right? With plenty of these :laugh: accompanying said posts.
 

nelsojc

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
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Straight out comparing junior hockey to a men's pro league now? Wow you ARE clueless. :laugh:

You know I'll be back here, quoting the heck out of you, when the tournament starts rolling and neither the Finnish D nor goalies show any signs of folding, right? With plenty of these :laugh: accompanying said posts.

Quote me at the end of the tournament when Finland does not win gold.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Quote me at the end of the tournament when Finland does not win gold.
Who said anything about winning gold? Stop moving the goalposts. You simply claimed that Finland doesn't have the group to compete, and I set you straight on that record.

*Can* this team win gold? Sure as heck it can, it has every piece necessary. (And sometimes you don't even need all the pieces, as they showed the world in 2014.)

*Will* it win? Can't say. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
 

nelsojc

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
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Who said anything about winning gold? Stop moving the goalposts. You simply claimed that Finland doesn't have the group to compete, and I set you straight on that record.

*Can* this team win gold? Sure as heck it can, it has every piece necessary. (And sometimes you don't even need all the pieces, as they showed the world in 2014.)

*Will* it win? Can't say. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

I never said they would not be able to compete. Let me clarify. Finland has a very good team, in my opinion them, they are in the top 3 with Canada and the US. However, in my opinion, their defence and goaltending will let them down in the end, thus preventing them from winning it all.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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I never said they would not be able to compete. Let me clarify. Finland has a very good team, in my opinion them, they are in the top 3 with Canada and the US. However, in my opinion, their defence and goaltending will let them down in the end, thus preventing them from winning it all.
Fair enough. I can stomach you not having a high opinion of our defence. I just don't think the goaltending bit holds water. You're basing that statement on them posting bad stats while playing in practice tournaments behind bad teams, yet you're completely ignoring the numbers they post while they play for their club teams in a men's pro league that is very much comparable in level to the Canadian junior leagues.
 

gverty

Registered User
Dec 3, 2015
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Fair enough. I can stomach you not having a high opinion of our defence. I just don't think the goaltending bit holds water. You're basing that statement on them posting bad stats while playing in practice tournaments behind bad teams, yet you're completely ignoring the numbers they post while they play for their club teams in a men's pro league that is very much comparable in level to the Canadian junior leagues.
Finland probably has the second best goaltending after Russia.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Finland probably has the second best goaltending after Russia.
Yeah. Samsonov seems by and far the most merited goalie in the tournament. But after him, I'd take Kähkönen and/or Vehviläinen over any other eligible netminder.
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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The fact they play against men doesn't really impress me one bit. The Finnish league doesn't have any elite level scorers like Matthews, Marner, Strome, Nylander, Point etc. They will fold

What the hell is going on here? You know that these goalies are playing against MEN, not against kids like you mentioned there. Rantanen scored 0.5ppg in FEL and next season he's scoring 1.31ppg in AHL. If your "elite snipers"(who are still very much kids) would play in FEL their stats would be a lot lower.
 

Opak

Registered User
Nov 28, 2014
6,543
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Yeah. Samsonov seems by and far the most merited goalie in the tournament. But after him, I'd take Kähkönen and/or Vehviläinen over any other eligible netminder.

Kähkönen and Vehviläinen will form a strong duo, but Russia's tandem of Samsonov and Georgiev (if he's ultimately selected) is very good as well. "George" has very respectable stats for TPS this year.

Tough to say which goaltending group is better.
 

Circulartheory

Registered User
Apr 22, 2006
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Hong Kong
The fact they play against men doesn't really impress me one bit. The Finnish league doesn't have any elite level scorers like Matthews, Marner, Strome, Nylander, Point etc. They will fold

Nor does any junior league in the world have Matthews, Marner, Strome, Nylander, Point... So not sure why playing against men doesn't impress somewhat because that is the next best thing.
 
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ChicagoBullsFan

Registered User
Jun 6, 2015
6,121
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Finland
What the hell is going on here? You know that these goalies are playing against MEN, not against kids like you mentioned there. Rantanen scored 0.5ppg in FEL and next season he's scoring 1.31ppg in AHL. If your "elite snipers"(who are still very much kids) would play in FEL their stats would be a lot lower.

Yeah seems obvious most those Canadian's etc fans, doesn't have no clue that FEL is professional hockey league.
It's totally different to be dominant player, in OHL / WHL / QMJHL / USHL / NCAA than FEL.

Example Nikolay Goldobin scored, 94 and 90 points in OHL.
Last season in HIFK, he scored only 21 points ( 11+10)

Point is that in FEL every player is a grown adult men, and they are professionals.
Only pro player who's dominated in FEL, was Erik Karlsson during NHL lockout 2012-2013.
 
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BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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Yeah seems obvious most those Canadian's etc fans, doesn't have no clue that FEL is professional hockey league.
It's totally different to be dominant player, in OHL / WHL / QMJHL than FEL.

Example Nikolay Goldobin scored, 94 and 90 points in OHL.
Last season in HIFK, he scored only 21 points ( 11+10)

Point is that in FEL every player is a grown adult men, and they are professionals.
Only pro player who's dominated in FEL, was Erik Karlsson during lock out 2012-2013.

Pre-cooke incident Karlsson was a beauty, probably the best player in the world.
 

ChicagoBullsFan

Registered User
Jun 6, 2015
6,121
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Finland
Pre-cooke incident Karlsson was a beauty, probably the best player in the world.

Yeah that Karlsson's dominating, was something unreal what we don't see often in FEL.
But however, Canadian's,Swede's,Yank's and Czech's can underestimate Finland in U20 WJC's so much as they ever want.

Only what matters for us, is that home-crowd support and home-rink advantage belongs to Finland.
It'll be huge boost for Finland's team, when 13,000 peoples ( Capacity of Hartwall Arena is 13400 peoples ) stands behind you.
And cheer for you, every single game.

Finland's last years effort, in Montreal and Toronto was embarrassing.
And most those failures, can accounted directly for Hannu Jortikka and his coaching staff.

How many times Jortikka updated his game-system, or changed line's NOT MANY.
Actually i didn't even see any game-system, or line changes at all in entire tournament.

Hiring Hannu Jortikka type grumpy and old fossil coach, to coaching Finland's top juniors.
In the world's respected junior world championship tournament, was one of hugest mistakes what Kalervo Kummola has ever made for.
 
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FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Hiring Hannu Jortikka type grumpy and old fossil coach to coaching Finland's top juniors in the world's respected junior world championship tournament was one of hugest mistakes what Kalervo Kummola has ever made for.
Hey now, let's be fair. They were in a pretty bad pinch after Kivi left. Not too many quality coaches available. It was practically a choice between Jortikka and some some complete greenhorn who should never coach a flagship team either. Rock and a hard place.

Even if Jortikka was a bust, at least having Raipe and Rindell on the helm before him taught Liitto that they should go after merit if they can. And that's what they did when they hauled Jortsu in. When he was hired, most people actually figured he was probably one of the better choices out of those available. So blaming Kummola or anyone for making a mistake is full 20/20 hindsight.
 
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ChicagoBullsFan

Registered User
Jun 6, 2015
6,121
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Finland
Hey now, let's be fair. They were in a pretty bad pinch after Kivi left. Not too many quality coaches available. It was practically a choice between Jortikka and some some complete greenhorn who should never coach a flagship team either. Rock and a hard place.

Even if Jortikka was a bust, at least having Raipe and Rindell on the helm before him taught Liitto that they should go after merit if they can. And that's what they did when they hauled Jortsu in. When he was hired, most people actually figured he was probably one of the better choices out of those available. So blaming Kummola or anyone for making a mistake is full 20/20 hindsight.

Yeah yeah, and blaa blaa blaa.
That was my honest opinion, sorry if it hurt your feelings.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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That was my honest opinion, sorry if it hurt your feelings.
Opinion formed after the fact, no doubt - making it hindsight and therefore an useless tirade. While people were reserved at the moment of his hiring, most understood there simply weren't all that many good choices available.

Therefore Liitto made no mistakes while hiring Jortikka. They would, however, have made a mistake by giving him their support after the tournament. Which they, in fact, did. Luckily Jortsu had half the mind to resign himself (or that's the official story, at least).

If you disagree, go ahead and say who, out of coaches available at the time, they should have hired in his stead.
 

kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
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"Cherry-picking" or not the fact that both of these guys can't stop a beach ball in international games should still be cause for concern. Typically Finland still puts out solid teams in international play and saying it's the teams fault isn't an excuse. These guys will need to be lights out for Finland to win gold and I don't see it happening.

Picking a handful of games, then comparing those to a season's average and current form. :facepalm:

Did anyone predict Finland winning 2014? Doubt even the most optimistic fans expected the team to make even to the semis.

For once, or rather at last, there's a team (even on the paper) that can compete with the best of them. Will it be enough? Who can say for sure, but it's going to be damn fun to watch and it won't require the kind of lights out display you are referring to.
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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Really excited for Pulajarvi, he's gonna rip this up, after Laine is there anyone else who could have a coming out party ?

Finland will be rolling 3 "1st" lines so i don't think anyone will be a sole star on this team but if i would have to say one, it would be Sebastian Aho. Might be even better overall player than Rantanen atm.
 

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