League News: 2015-16 Around the League VI (NHL News n' Scores n' Stuff)

[Stewie G]

I've been concussed twice. The second was severe enough to cause memory loss (I still don't remember the incident happening or the half an hour or so afterwards).

A concussion is not an excuse to cross check someone. He didn't simply put his hands up. He put both hands on the stick (where as, a moment prior, he had the wherewithal to do a single hand tap with his stick to signal a line change) and pushed forwards with his stick against the back of Don Henderson.

You don't remember what happened during or immediately after a severe concussion, yet you've decided that Wideman's series of actions are somehow "wrong." How does that make any sense? Not to mention that everyone's response to a concussion is different, making any sort of firm conclusion as to whether or not what he did is "excusable" completely illogical.

 

[4thTierSport]

Some of the responses here frankly disturb me. With how much is coming out about concussions and how they affect not only physical things like balance and vision, but cognitive things like decision making and mood, you would think Wideman would get more of a benefit of the doubt especially given his clean record before the incident.

His head hits the boards really hard, and he was concussed. You might need to wait for public statements from the doctor who diagnosed him, but I don't. Everything he does from the moment he was impacted to his post-game comments (and possibly until today) were likely to be significantly impacted from the hit he received to the head.

There was a systematic failure by the league and the Flames medical staff to properly assess the hit to Wideman (and the linesman, for that matter, who also stayed in and finished the game).

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Concussions symptoms vary so much from person to person. It concerns me with all the info flying around that some people still don't get it.

Wideman's actions from the hit to when he got on the bench were all based on instinct for him. He got up, knew something was wrong and went straight for the bench. Tried to change his path and threw his hands up to protect himself when he realized someone was in front of him. He's sitting hunched over on the bench when everyone else is seeing what is going on and reacting to the situation. Give his history, I would lean more towards him being hurt and dazed then a ***** sitting on the bench not caring what just happened.

I remember hearing on NHL network that a NHL spotter had tagged Wideman a someone that should get checked which he refused on the bench. NHL needs to take a page from the NFL and tell players they're getting checked out. Shouldn't be an option if a player is showing any symptoms or had impact to the head.

 

[Hivemind]

Some of the responses here frankly disturb me. With how much is coming out about concussions and how they affect not only physical things like balance and vision, but cognitive things like decision making and mood, you would think Wideman would get more of a benefit of the doubt especially given his clean record before the incident.

Most of what you are describing, in particular the decision making and mood, are symptoms of post-concussion syndrome. That's not the same as the immediate impact of the concussion. Wideman would not yet be suffering from post-concussion syndrome mere seconds after the concussion.

His head hits the boards really hard, and he was concussed. You might need to wait for public statements from the doctor who diagnosed him, but I don't. Everything he does from the moment he was impacted to his post-game comments (and possibly until today) were likely to be significantly impacted from the hit he received to the head.

There was a systematic failure by the league and the Flames medical staff to properly assess the hit to Wideman (and the linesman, for that matter, who also stayed in and finished the game).

This may all be true, but it is irrelevant to his suspension. A concussion does not excuse him from concussing another individual, and particularly not a linesman.

 

[Carlzner]

I just find it hard to believe that a guy like Dennis Wideman would do something like that, especially making it look that obvious.

 

[HunterSThompson]

There is very little about this that can be stated definitively.

Did he have concussion? Was it a bad concussion? Did he not have a concussion, but got his "bell rung" and could still be disoriented? Was he looking down? Was he looking directly at the linesman? Was he looking at the oncoming rush? Were his eyes closed?

Now, in my opinion when watching the video, a concussion didn't weigh into it at all for me. It looked like he didn't see him.

 

[twabby]

Most of what you are describing, in particular the decision making and mood, are symptoms of post-concussion syndrome. That's not the same as the immediate impact of the concussion. Wideman would not yet be suffering from post-concussion syndrome mere seconds after the concussion.

Look at the video I posted of the football player who couldn't tell what team he was on. Still think your decision making can't immediately be impacted by a concussion?

edit: linked again here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9M7liDRclQ

 

[Hivemind]

Look at the video I posted of the football player who couldn't tell what team he was on. Still think your decision making isn't immediately impacted by a concussion?

I couldn't remember my age when concussed. Memory loss is one of the immediate symptoms of concussion.

Memory loss, however, is not the same as decision making. Memory loss doesn't cause someone to cross check a linesman. Memory loss is not an excuse for concussing someone else.

 

[twabby]

This may all be true, but it is irrelevant to his suspension. A concussion does not excuse him from concussing another individual, and particularly not a linesman.

Sure it does.

Suppose instead he lost his ability to keep his balance immediately after sustaining a concussion, and subsequently fell down and plowed into an official and the official banged his head onto the ice. Would you still say it was intentional?

I couldn't remember my age when concussed. Memory loss is one of the immediate symptoms of concussion.

Memory loss, however, is not the same as decision making. Memory loss doesn't cause someone to cross check a linesman. Memory loss is not an excuse for concussing someone else.

If you can definitively prove that decision-making cannot be impaired immediately after sustaining a concussion, then I will withdraw my argument. But I suspect you can't do that and you are providing nothing more than your own anecdotal evidence that your decision-making was unimpaired (which is odd, considering you said you couldn't even remember the incident or 30 mins afterwards) to conclude that Wideman also did not have decision-making his unimpaired.

 

[Hivemind]

Sure it does.

Suppose instead he lost his ability to keep his balance immediately after sustaining a concussion, and subsequently fell down and plowed into an official and the official banged his head onto the ice. Would you still say it was intentional?

That's not what happened. He cross checked the linesman from behind. With both hands. After having only one hand on his stick mere seconds before.

 

[twabby]

That's not what happened. He cross checked the linesman from behind. With both hands. After having only one hand on his stick mere seconds before.

It was more of a push than a cross-check seeing as his hands were pretty close together.

Either way, you claimed "having a concussion does not excuse him for concussing another person", and I presented a scenario for where this is demonstrably not true. The "how" and "why" he concussed the official absolutely matters.

 

[Hivemind]

You're playing a game of "gotcha" and attempting to argue for the sport of argument. I'm talking about what actually happened. I 100% agree that NHL player safety is a joke, and I hope this drags the league out into the spotlight on that topic. I yearn for better helmets, full cages, and neck strength training to become features of the NHL. However, the simple reality of this particular situation is that Wideman's punishment is just.

 

[RandyHolt]

Some of the responses here frankly disturb me. With how much is coming out about concussions and how they affect not only physical things like balance and vision, but cognitive things like decision making and mood, you would think Wideman would get more of a benefit of the doubt especially given his clean record before the incident......

Spot on.

But, you know... the internet doctor is overplayed, so...

 

[Hivemind]

Didn't see this edit until now:

If you can definitively prove that decision-making cannot be impaired immediately after sustaining a concussion, then I will withdraw my argument. But I suspect you can't do that and you are providing nothing more than your own anecdotal evidence that your decision-making was unimpaired (which is odd, considering you said you couldn't even remember the incident or 30 mins afterwards) to conclude that Wideman also did not have decision-making his unimpaired.

Read the medical literature on concussions. Decision making and cognitive ability is mentioned in the PCS literature, and the only references to it in concussion diagnosis are focused on the days/weeks after the event. Confusion, disorientation, and memory loss are frequently mentioned as immediate concussion symptoms. Those may all have been in play in Wideman's case. However, they don't excuse his actions.

Regarding my personal history with concussions, I was told by nurses that I gave them an age one year younger than I actually was. I don't actually remember giving them my age at all.

 

[twabby]

Ultimately it's going to come down to the independent arbitrator's interpretation of events and whether or not there was intent. If I were the arbitrator and Wideman's camp presented evidence that he was concussed and that Wideman claimed he didn't notice the linesman until the last second at which point he tried to side-step and extend his arms as a way to defend himself from a collision, I'd have a hard time not believing him because all video evidence supports this explanation in my eyes.

I think Wideman should be suspended WITH PAY for a minimum of 5-10 games because clearly his head wasn't right and it's not safe for him to be let back onto the ice until he passes concussion testing.

 

[Calicaps]

Ultimately it's going to come down to the independent arbitrator's interpretation of events and whether or not there was intent. If I were the arbitrator and Wideman's camp presented evidence that he was concussed and that Wideman claimed he didn't notice the linesman until the last second at which point he tried to side-step and extend his arms as a way to defend himself from a collision, I'd have a hard time not believing him because all video evidence supports this explanation in my eyes.

I think Wideman should be suspended WITH PAY for a minimum of 5-10 games because clearly his head wasn't right and it's not safe for him to be let back onto the ice until he passes concussion testing.

Agreed that independent review will have the final say, but this is not a suspension, it's IR.

Wideman will have to be really suspended for some period of time because whatever the reason he assaulted an on-ice official and sent him to the hospital. That cannot have no consequences; it just can't. The rulebook is clear and also, the officials have a union too; they are angry about this and rightly so. The linesman was a totally innocent bystander.

But if the medical data supports a concussion, I would not be surprised to see the suspension reduced, and possibly by a lot.

 

[twabby]

Didn't see this edit until now:



Read the medical literature on concussions. Decision making and cognitive ability is mentioned in the PCS literature, and the only references to it in concussion diagnosis are focused on the days/weeks after the event. Confusion, disorientation, and memory loss are frequently mentioned as immediate concussion symptoms. Those may all have been in play in Wideman's case. However, they don't excuse his actions.

Regarding my personal history with concussions, I was told by nurses that I gave them an age one year younger than I actually was. I don't actually remember giving them my age at all.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/concussion/basics/symptoms/con-20019272

http://www.cdc.gov/concussion/signs_symptoms.html

Come on, it's a simple google search away.

"Difficulty thinking clearly, difficulty concentrating, fuzzy or blurry vision, dizziness, temporary loss of consciousness, seeing stars"

"may be immediate or delayed"

You're telling me decision-making isn't impacted if you are confused and can't see straight?

 

[twabby]

Agreed that independent review will have the final say, but this is not a suspension, it's IR.

Wideman will have to be really suspended for some period of time because whatever the reason he assaulted an on-ice official and sent him to the hospital. That cannot have no consequences; it just can't. The rulebook is clear and also, the officials have a union too; they are angry about this and rightly so. The linesman was a totally innocent bystander.

But if the medical data supports a concussion, I would not be surprised to see the suspension reduced, and possibly by a lot.

IR, suspension with pay, whatever it's called he needs to be off the ice but he also doesn't deserve for his salary to be taken away from him if it was accidental.

The rulebook is clear if there is intent. I'm saying there is no intent whatsoever. I understand that the NHL is probably feeling pressure from the officials union, but that doesn't mean the league shouldn't make an informed, rational decision.

 

[HunterSThompson]

You're telling me decision-making isn't impacted if you are confused and can't see straight?

Just so I am clear, which are you saying?

1. He was concussed. Because his decision making was altered, he attacked a linesman, but because the concussion caused the bad decision, his punishment should be lessened or removed.

2. He was concussed. Because his decision making was altered, he accidentally collided with the linesman, and because the concussion caused the collision, his punishment should be lessened or removed.

 

[Hivemind]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/concussion/basics/symptoms/con-20019272

http://www.cdc.gov/concussion/signs_symptoms.html

Come on, it's a simple google search away.

"Difficulty thinking clearly, difficulty concentrating, fuzzy or blurry vision, dizziness, temporary loss of consciousness, seeing stars"

"may be immediate or delayed"

You're telling me decision-making isn't impacted if you are confused and can't see straight?

Come on, read more than two seconds. You're lumping the cognitive setbacks (associated with PCS) in with the immediate setbacks. When consolidated into a single table, like they did on the CDC page, of course some will be "immediate or delayed," because that table is covering both immediate symptoms and longer-term ones (PCS).

 

[twabby]

Come on, read more than two seconds. You're lumping the cognitive setbacks (associated with PCS) in with the immediate setbacks. When consolidated into a single table, like they did on the CDC page, of course some will be "immediate or delayed," because that table is covering both immediate symptoms and longer-term ones (PCS).

If you're saying you can't have your decision-making altered immediately following a concussion then it's clear that we aren't going to find any common ground in this discussion.

 

[Calicaps]

Folks, we're getting way off-topic here into the technical details of concussions and PCS. Wrap it up or take it to the off-topic thread. Otherwise, just stick to the Wideman case.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Fehr out a month with "significant LBI." Good non-signing there.

 

[Calicaps]

Fehr out a month with "significant LBI." Good non-signing there.

Yeah... Poor guy. Coulda been a contender.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Fehr out a month with "significant LBI." Good non-signing there.

Fehr is so fragile, yeah.

Very useful player but not useful at all if he can't stay in the lineup.

 

[hockeykicker]

Fehr out a month with "significant LBI." Good non-signing there.

even malkin will miss a few games with a "nagging injury"