Rumor: 2014/2015 Season Trade Rumours and Proposals VIII - The Road to Tradelemania

[MiscBrah]

I think what happens is that because Neil and Phillips are the last members of the 'old guard' they sometimes get lumped in together. People criticize Phillips and then also criticize neil because they see them as the same problem.

Neil is still a valuable asset on a playoff team. 91 playoff games, been to a cup final, ability to elevate his game in the playoffs, knows when to fight. I'm not surprised there is lots of teams interested in Neil. I'm curious what GM's are offering for him..

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Maybe its because he's not as crappy as some make him out to be

That and because he likely won't be costing a ton to get either

 

[BonkTastic]

probably not, but the odds of a 2nd round pick being an NHL player are about 1 in 4, and in many cases, they take more than 3 years to get there anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I love me my prospects, but realistically speaking, I understand why a GM values an actual NHL player more than a pick, even if that NHL player is long in the tooth and the team isn't ready to contend.

True.

If we're dealing Neil, I'd actually like to add one of OUR draft picks to him in order to get more of a sure thing in return.

 

[h2]

Well, it's not as though if we don't trade them we won't have draft picks. The late 2nd round (at best imo) we'd get for either of them would be nice to have, my point is more that it's not some kind of franchise changing thing. Our 2nd round picks since Murray has been GM have been Bashkirov (most likely a Muckler after effect, as Murray was only around a couple weeks at that point), Wiercioch (a 7th Dman as well) Lehner, Silfverberg, Prince and Englund. So far, none has really had any impact in the NHL, so is a 2nd round pick worth whatever benefits Neil or Phillips brings? On ice, our best picks have provided a marginal upgrade, but nothing to write home about yet (though long term I'm sure some of them will have decent careers) but I imagine the GM sees a lot more of the behind the scenes and off ice stuff that makes guys like Phillips and Neil valuable.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't mind either way. If Neil or Phillips are traded, best of luck to them, but I'm not going to cry if either want's to stay here and help transition some of the young players into good pros.

I don't think this situation is franchise changing, it's more of the cumulative effect of continuing to operate this way of holding on to players that is franchise changing. We've allowed several players to see their contract expire only to get nothing for them when they had value, I'm thinking of Zdeno Chara, Anton Volchenkov, Wade Redden, Daniel Alfredsson, Mike Comrie (twice) just off the top of my head. Keeping players and losing them for nothing and then acquiring rentals for assets in the wrong years all in a short span - That is franchise changing.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That and because he likely won't be costing a ton to get either

I think you might be surprised, just a hunch.

Neil has a solid rep around the league and would be a good pick up for a team that needs top echelon grit, who can play a regular shift, on the bottom line.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think this situation is franchise changing, it's more of the cumulative effect of continuing to operate this way of holding on to players that is franchise changing. We've allowed several players to see their contract expire only to get nothing for them when they had value, I'm thinking of Zdeno Chara, Anton Volchenkov, Wade Redden, Daniel Alfredsson, Mike Comrie (twice) just off the top of my head. Keeping players and losing them for nothing and then acquiring rentals for assets in the wrong years all in a short span - That is franchise changing.

Well, we tried to trade Redden (he vetoed with his NTC), and wanted to re-sign Chara. Alfredsson is a little different and Comrie was a rental the first time, I don't recall why we traded MacAmmond (who was pretty much finished) for him the second time, but I'm not sure he really had much value at that point.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

True.

If we're dealing Neil, I'd actually like to add one of OUR draft picks to him in order to get more of a sure thing in return.

Who would be interested in such a deal though?

 

[chipsens]

IMO the Sedins would benefit from having Neil on their team. No more sister jokes. So, what would they give us in return...?

..to stir the pot, how about Neil to Canucks for Utica RW Nicklas Jensen

 

[h2]

Well, we tried to trade Redden (he vetoed with his NTC), and wanted to re-sign Chara. Alfredsson is a little different and Comrie was a rental the first time, I don't recall why we traded MacAmmond (who was pretty much finished) for him the second time, but I'm not sure he really had much value at that point.

I agree the Alfredsson situation is different. I'd just like to see our GM take the approach where you trade pending UFA's if they don't extend by the trade deadline, unless we're an obvious contender. Didn't we trade McAmmond and 1st for Comrie the second time? Either way, that trade was horrible.

 

[BonkTastic]

Who would be interested in such a deal though?

No idea, I was just giving my "perfect world" scenario.


*EDIT*

Wait, I thought of someone. If Nashville isn't a true believer on Calle Jarnkrok, I'd love to see if we could get a guy like that in return for Neil + a pick, assuming they're legit interested in Neil.

Jarnkrok fell flat on his face at the beginning of the year, hasn't played a lot, and is a bit buried on that team right now... and if the Preds are having even the slightest of second guesses about him, I'm willing to wager on his skill.

 

[BonkTastic]

Didn't we trade McAmmond and 1st for Comrie the second time?

Campoli and Comrie. That trade was mostly about Campoli, IMO.

 

[HSF]

For people saying 4th round picks have crap odds.....dont we supposedly have a great scouting staff? Wouldnt their odds be better to find a player with a mid to late round pick then other team

depends on what the scouts think who murray talks to before dealing or obtaining picks


if they don't believe they can get a player they really want with a 4th then they might not want to make the deal

 

[Micklebot]

I agree the Alfredsson situation is different. I'd just like to see our GM take the approach where you trade pending UFA's if they don't extend by the trade deadline, unless we're an obvious contender. Didn't we trade McAmmond and 1st for Comrie the second time? Either way, that trade was horrible.

Yeah, now that you mention it, that was to get Campoli. He had a decent shot at being a 4/5 PP specialist, and while it didn't pan out, Comrie and MacAmmond were just to balance out value a bit.

Team had a big need for puck moving D at the time as I recall. We even tried Brendan Bell. In hindsight it was a bad move, but I still think the idea was right, and Campoli was serviceable while here. 3 years of Campoli, 22 games of Comrie and a 2nd round pick (when we traded him to the hawks 3 years later) for MacAmmond and a late 1st isn't that bad.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I don't think this situation is franchise changing, it's more of the cumulative effect of continuing to operate this way of holding on to players that is franchise changing. We've allowed several players to see their contract expire only to get nothing for them when they had value, I'm thinking of Zdeno Chara, Anton Volchenkov, Wade Redden, Daniel Alfredsson, Mike Comrie (twice) just off the top of my head. Keeping players and losing them for nothing and then acquiring rentals for assets in the wrong years all in a short span - That is franchise changing.

I'm just surprised murray tends to give out so many NTC after Redden burned him. Hopefully the new gm isnt as liberal with them after Redden, Heatley and Spezza al burned murray with them.

 

[BonkTastic]

I'm just surprised murray tends to give out so many NTC after Redden burned him.

At least he seems to only give out "limited" NTC's now.

I think he learned his lesson after Heatley.

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

I'm just surprised murray tends to give out so many NTC after Redden burned him. Hopefully the new gm isnt as liberal with them after Redden, Heatley and Spezza al burned murray with them.

Well Redden got that NTC with Muckler. Although he used it in Murray's first year as our GM, I wouldn't call it a burn moreless a right he earned from the previous GM.

Heatley and Spezza is a different story though. I would prefer if he didn't include them in contract negotiations but if the player he wants to sign is requesting one and that's the only thing from signing then I don't blame him for doing it.

It would be nice if he countered that request to give them a NTC for all years but the final one on their contracts, but none of us are in that meeting room to know if he at least tried.

 

[h2]

Well Redden got that NTC with Muckler. Although he used it in Murray's first year as our GM, I wouldn't call it a burn moreless a right he earned from the previous GM.

Heatley and Spezza is a different story though. I would prefer if he didn't include them in contract negotiations but if the player he wants to sign is requesting one and that's the only thing from signing then I don't blame him for doing it.

It would be nice if he countered that request to give them a NTC for all years but the final one on their contracts, but none of us are in that meeting room to know if he at least tried.

I'd like to see a players NTC void if there is a trade request made by the player. I doubt such a clause is possible tho.

 

[HSF]

during the heatley / spezza signing days a NTC was all the rage

if you didn't give it for a star they weren't staying

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

I'd like to see a players NTC void if there is a trade request made by the player. I doubt such a clause is possible tho.

Yeah that was my exact thoughts during the Heatley situation. It would have been nice if the NHL had some rules in place that would help an organization if a player turns sour on them and demands a trade.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Well Redden got that NTC with Muckler. Although he used it in Murray's first year as our GM, I wouldn't call it a burn moreless a right he earned from the previous GM.

Heatley and Spezza is a different story though. I would prefer if he didn't include them in contract negotiations but if the player he wants to sign is requesting one and that's the only thing from signing then I don't blame him for doing it.

It would be nice if he countered that request to give them a NTC for all years but the final one on their contracts, but none of us are in that meeting room to know if he at least tried.

Ya i know Redden wasnt a Murray contract but he still got burned by the NTC and i believe we missed out on Marleau. The Kings organization has shown you dont need to offer players NTCs all the time. Not one player on their roster has one and i dont see any huge cap numbers you can say would be lower from NTCs being attached to the contract. At least not low enough to make a huge difference.

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

Ya i know Redden wasnt a Murray contract but he still got burned by the NTC and i believe we missed out on Marleau. The Kings organization has shown you dont need to offer players NTCs all the time. Not one player on their roster has one and i dont see any huge cap numbers you can say would be lower from NTCs being attached to the contract. At least not low enough to make a huge difference.

The difference between the Sens and the Kings is destination. L.A is a lot more attractive for people with money. It's the New York of the West but warmer.

Ottawa is a nice city, my favorite in Canada... but aside from the fact it's all government, higher taxes, cold winters and more of a place to settle down and raise a family, I'm sure it's not in the top 10 of NHL cities players would take less to play in.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

The difference between the Sens and the Kings is destination. L.A is a lot more attractive for people with money. It's the New York of the West.

Ottawa is a nice city, my favorite in Canada... but aside from the fact it's all government, higher taxes, cold winters and more of a place to settle down and raise a family, I'm sure it's not in the top 10 of NHL cities players would take less to play in.

Spezza, heatley and karlsson were RFAs when they signed their contracts. Unless you think not offering a NTC would have led to them holding out then or accepting an offer sheet from another team then imo it didnt need to be added. I'm sure the players would have liked them but they werent deal breakers in my mind.

Florida has 5 players with some type of NTC in their contract. Taxes are even lower there then in California. Market isnt the sole reason teams give players NTCs. If you make leaving NTCs out of contracts one of the laws of your organization you can still acquire an keep good talent. NTCs might help players leave a bit of money on the table but in situations with RFAs i dont see players having much advantage in demanding one be in the contract. If for example phillips and Neil said they were going to uproot their families and move somewhere else if i didnt put a NTC in their contract i'd play that game of chicken

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Why am I hearing that trading Phillips or Neil means our organization will now be seen as an organization that treats people like meat?

Why am I also hearing that keeping Phillips and Neil will result in talented UFAs wanting to flock to us?

Neither argument holds much water.

I'm not saying that trading Neil or Phillips in particular means the team is treating the players like meat. I am saying, as a general rule, you don't want to treat your guys like disposable pieces of meat.

A good example - Hossa. Signed a new friendly contract, only to get thrown away a short time later. Stuff like that hurts the reputation of the team.

That's one of the reasons we need to tread softly in regards of moving Michalek and Legwand. They specifically chose to sign with us, for less than what they could've gotten somewhere else. You simply wouldn't trade them away unless it's a mutual decision between player and team. Not right after signing those contracts.

As for Neil and Phillips, they are long-time Sens. They need to be treated right. If they want to move on and have a chance for a Cup, yo do what you can to facilitate it. If they want to stay, you keep them unless something really extraordinary happens.

 

[RedWhiteBlackGold]

Spezza, heatley and karlsson were RFAs when they signed their contracts. Unless you think not offering a NTC would have led to them holding out then or accepting an offer sheet from another team then imo it didnt need to be added. I'm sure the players would have liked them but they werent deal breakers in my mind.

Florida has 5 players with some type of NTC in their contract. Taxes are even lower there then in California. Market isnt the sole reason teams give players NTCs. If you make leaving NTCs out of contracts one of the laws of your organization you can still acquire an keep good talent. NTCs might help players leave a bit of money on the table but in situations with RFAs i dont see them having much advantage in demanding one be in the contract. If for example phillips and Neil said they were going to uproot their families and move somewhere else if i didnt put a NTC in their contract i'd play that game of chicken

Well Spezza and Karlsson are Ottawa drafted players, so I would like to think that plays a factor in them wanting to extend their stay with the club and I have no problem with Murray giving them NTC's.

They both try to work together and keep each other happy.

Heatley was the exception to the rule but who really knew the Sens who just went to the Stanley Cup Finals wouldn't continue to contend. Also the fact Heatley was an allstar during that time and scored back to back 50 goals/100 point seasons when offered that contract.

Florida has 5 players with NTC's, how many of those were Florida raised/drafted?

Neil and Phillips shouldn't have been given NTC's, but it's not like they are making a lot of money either. They probably could have fetched more money in the open market during their contract years, but I think the short term contracts they received was out of respect being home grown players. It's not like they are making much anyways.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

As much as we all hate Heatley we have to admit he basically saw what was coming and bailed for greener pastures

He was a dick about it but he was right