Rumor: 2014/2015 Season Trade Rumours and Proposals VIII - The Road to Tradelemania

[Dino Tkachuk]

So uh....


... it seems like I missed some fireworks in the other thread?

I just waded in...perhaps against my better judgment...

 

[jbeck5]

To my knowledge, no one has said that.


Or that.

In the previous thread people were going on about respect and not treating players like meat when people said "finally, we need to trade them" or "we can get a 2nd for neil? doo it noww" and people took offense to those comments. The 2 leading arguments against trading them were the 2 i gave you. Feel free to go check it out. There's like 3 pages of it.

 

[Othello*]

The money they make has nothing to do with how they should be treated by fans or the team itself. They have earned this money in the same way that you have earned the money at your place of employment.

Are you saying that the person making $200,000 should be treated differently than the person making $25,000?

Now should they live with the consequences of being a pro athlete? Of course... I'm just not sure why they should have to live with being treated as commodities because they are pro athletes. It seems like we have blurred the line between being a human that has value to a team/organization and a thing that has value.

Yes you're correct, Higher earning players shouldn't be treated any differently , but I was referring to how people pass this notion of how the Senators "owe" something to these said players. Senators don't owe these guys **** and vice versa. This has become apparent recently in the whole Alfie debocale

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

If Neil does get traded it would be cool to see him reunite with Fisher and go for a cup in Nashville. I would definitely be cheering for them although I'd cheer for them anyway these playoffs.

The funny thing is a lot of people say Neil stinks now yet he's good enough to play the fourth line on a cup contender.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

In the previous thread people were going on about respect and not treating players like meat when people said "finally, we need to trade them" or "we can get a 2nd for neil? doo it noww" and people took offense to those comments. The 2 leading arguments against trading them were the 2 i gave you. Feel free to go check it out. There's like 3 pages of it.

Just took a look and what I'm reading is that both players have said no to being traded. That means they shouldn't be traded without first talking to them again... The fact that the team can (potentially) get a second round pick for either player is irrelevant and suffice it to say that, at this point, a second rounder doesn't convince me to trade them after just confirming their wishes.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

People shouldn't hate Neil and Phillips for wanting to stay. It's well within their rights to say they want to stay if asked.

People shouldn't hate Murray for trading them. It's well within his right to trade them, and didn't even need to ask.

I just hope that if they had the conversation that they would like to stay, that Murray was very up front that their roles on this team are only trending down and have to be happy being healthy scratches regularly.

 

[jbeck5]

The money they make has nothing to do with how they should be treated by fans or the team itself. They have earned this money in the same way that you have earned the money at your place of employment.

Are you saying that the person making $200,000 should be treated differently than the person making $25,000?

Now should they live with the consequences of being a pro athlete? Of course... I'm just not sure why they should have to live with being treated as commodities because they are pro athletes. It seems like we have blurred the line between being a human that has value to a team/organization and a thing that has value.

In pro sports you often do need to treat the 8 million dollar players better than the 800,000 players. You coddle the irreplaceable ones where as you dont coddle the interchangeable 4th liners. You see it in every major sport.

The top players can go where they'll get paid AND where you'll get coddled. They're that much in demand.

We, on the other hand focus on the 4th liners. Every summer its "extends neil" or "extends phillips" but its rarely "sign top line player to fill much needed hole"

We'd rather overpay a 7th d at 2.5 million than sign a middle of the roster player at 4 million.

You keep hearing "well did you wanna offer 2nd-3rd line tweener(4th-9th forward) liner 4.5 million like team x did?"

my response? if it means not offering 13th forward 2.5 million then hell yeah.

We overpay for 3rd liners,4th liners, and healthy scratches yet refuse to overpay for first or second liners when they become available. I can already hear someone come out and name the worse signing in clarksson in some smug cheap argument.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

We overpaid for Kovalev and Gonchar. Our entire franchise history we never really go after by big name free agents, that's pretty standard for a small market team.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

Yes you're correct, Higher earning players shouldn't be treated any differently , but I was referring to how people pass this notion of how the Senators "owe" something to these said players. Senators don't owe these guys **** and vice versa. This has become apparent recently in the whole Alfie debocale

...but don't these 2 guys deserve to be treated fairly? It is wrong to involve them in the process?

I'm sure if Murray came to Neil and said, I've been offered a 1st rounder for you and I'm going to make the deal, Neil may not like it but he would understand...

He would be a class guy and would say nothing but nice things about the organization on the way out the door.

 

[StefanW]

If Neil does get traded it would be cool to see him reunite with Fisher and go for a cup in Nashville. I would definitely be cheering for them although I'd cheer for them anyway these playoffs.

The funny thing is a lot of people say Neil stinks now yet he's good enough to play the fourth line on a cup contender.

Yeah, I could definitely get behind Neil in Nashville.

 

[Othello*]

...but don't these 2 guys deserve to be treated fairly? It is wrong to involve them in the process?

I'm sure if Murray came to Neil and said, I've been offered a 1st rounder for you and I'm going to make the deal, Neil may not like it but he would understand...

He would be a class guy and would say nothing but nice things about the organization on the way out the door.

I'd say they've been treated extremely fair with the amount of money they've made over their careers, and please enlighten me on how trading athletes in this situation is wrong

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

In pro sports you often do need to treat the 8 million dollar players better than the 800,000 players. You coddle the irreplaceable ones where as you dont coddle the interchangeable 4th liners. You see it in every major sport.

The top players can go where they'll get paid AND where you'll get coddled. They're that much in demand.

Good coaches do what they need to do to get the most out of their players. Good GM's treat all players the same regardless of ability. The same can be said at your place of employment.

We, on the other hand focus on the 4th liners. Every summer its "extends neil" or "extends phillips" but its rarely "sign top line player to fill much needed hole"

The same can be said on the trade front.

We'd rather overpay a 7th d at 2.5 million than sign a middle of the roster player at 4 million.

You keep hearing "well did you wanna offer 2nd-3rd line tweener(4th-9th forward) liner 4.5 million like team x did?"

my response? if it means not offering 13th forward 2.5 million then hell yeah.

Do we need ANOTHER mid-tier player taking the roster spot of a mid-tier prospect? I'm thinking no. That said, I can't think of a single top line player that would have come here as a UFA if we had ponied up the money given where we are in the rebuild process.

We overpay for 3rd liners,4th liners, and healthy scratches yet refuse to overpay for first or second liners when they become available. I can already hear someone come out and name the worse signing in clarksson in some smug cheap argument.

For the reasons above, if these 3rd and 4th liners aren't killing us in terms of cap and the team isn't afraid to sit them, I don't have a problem with it. I get that you do. We'll agree to disagree....

 

[jbeck5]

Just took a look and what I'm reading is that both players have said no to being traded. That means they shouldn't be traded without first talking to them again... The fact that the team can (potentially) get a second round pick for either player is irrelevant and suffice it to say that, at this point, a second rounder doesn't convince me to trade them after just confirming their wishes.

To the bold: no it doesn't. Murray can trade them to any team not on their list without their approval. He's the gm. He should make the decision. Phillips and neil are not the GM. As far as they're concerned, they play hockey and don't have to worry about going to a team they dont want to. They put it in their contract.

Why is the fact we can get a second round pick irrelevant?

So with your last sentence, im implying this to mean you would put the happiness of your 13th forward and 7th D ahead of the betterment of the franchise? why?

Getting a 2nd for either of them would be a huge gain.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

I'd say they've been treated extremely fair with the amount of money they've made over their careers, and please enlighten me on how trading athletes in this situation is wrong

I never said it was wrong to trade them but it is right to involve them in the process. My exact response was:

The money you make and the respect you deserve are mutually exclusive. One has nothing to do with the other...

Do they play a role on this team: Yes.
Are they the cause of the teams record this year: No.
Should they be traded: Probably.
Will they be traded: I don't know.
Do we owe it to them to involve them in the process: Absolutely.

No one is crying a river here.

 

[Benjamin]

Skinner healthy scratch.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Pretty much agree completely with flapjack. Keeping open lines of communication between management and players is a good thing.

The Hossa trade helped lose us Chara.

 

[jbeck5]

[FlapJackKing;96696103]Good coaches do what they need to do to get the most out of their players. Good GM's treat all players with the same regardless of ability. The same can be said at your place of employment.

I agree with the theory, but i've seen way more stars get coddled than 4th liners in pro sports


The same can be said on the trade front.

for sure, although we've done better in this department. We've brought in turris and ryan via trade.


Do we need ANOTHER mid-tier player taking the roster spot of a mid-tier prospect? I'm thinking no. That said, I can't think of a single top line player that would have come here as a UFA if we had ponied up the money given where we are in the rebuild process.

Mid tier player at 4 million>>>bottom tier player at 2.5. It allows for certain players to go down a spot on the depth chart and be put in a position to succeed.


For the reasons above, if these 3rd and 4th liners aren't killing us in terms of cap and the team isn't afraid to sit them, I don't have a problem with it. I get that you do. We'll agree to disagree....

It's not that they're killing us. It's why not upgrade on them?

[/QUOTE]

answers in bold

 

[h2]

Open communication didn't help us keep Heatley, Alfredsson, or Spezza either.

 

[jbeck5]

Open communication didn't help us keep Heatley, Alfredsson, or Spezza either.

If only we treated them like phillips and neil.

 

[Othello*]

Good coaches do what they need to do to get the most out of their players. Good GM's treat all players the same regardless of ability. The same can be said at your place of employment.


The same can be said on the trade front.


Do we need ANOTHER mid-tier player taking the roster spot of a mid-tier prospect? I'm thinking no. That said, I can't think of a single top line player that would have come here as a UFA if we had ponied up the money given where we are in the rebuild process.


For the reasons above, if these 3rd and 4th liners aren't killing us in terms of cap and the team isn't afraid to sit them, I don't have a problem with it. I get that you do. We'll agree to disagree....

Exactly! Which is why we don't need anymore fringe AHL dmen like Phillips and barely fourth line players like Neil when we're flooded with the likes of Condra,Gryba,Michalek,Weircioch and boro.

I don't know how to multi Qoute, sorry. I'm referring to your comment on more mid teir players

 

[Burrowsaurus]

...and they may still. What I am responding to is all the angst on these boards over the fact that Murray asked for their preference and they both responded with a "no". This is a general sign of respect and many seem to have a problem with it.

I understand the need to discuss if they will be traded, I get talking about when they will be traded...but I just don't understand talking about how they will be traded.

Imagine you are 35, have an established family and are a large contributor in the community. Now your manager calls you into his office one day and says your job has been moved 1000 miles away. You have a few options such as move, quit and find a new job in the same profession, negotiate a different type of job with the same company etc.

Professional athletes have 1 option. Move or you don't play again... That's it. You have a contract, you have made a commitment and you are legally required to stand by that commitment. I hardly think it is an inconvenience for the team to show some kind of commitment in return.

I commend Bryan Murray and the job that he has done, both with the Ottawa Senators and around the league.

Sens have made huge commitments to both of them. In the form of millions and millions of dollars.

And in return for these massive amounts of money. They agree to play hockey for us. And in time of a trade (there's literally a clause addressing trades specifically in he contract, so isn't that disrespectful. Shouldn't it say like "sign this deal chris(either) we will never trade you because we respect and love you, no talk of trade will ever be brought up no never. ) BUT. There is. And it says. That in case of trade. The player can pick 15 teams to which he does not want to go to. Not 29. Not "if you don't want to be traded we won't trade you". It says. That he can pick FIFTEEN teams. There's talk of trade in the contract. It's business. They spoke of the potential of being traded when they signed the contract.

 

[OmniSens]

Trade KingK! Imagine the return! Send him away while his stock is high

I'll trade you if you keep talking like this!

 

[jbeck5]

Sens have made huge commitments to both of them. In the form of millions and millions of dollars.

Yeah no kidding.

Military men have to do this too, and they don't get compensated like that.

It's the nature of the job. They knew trades existed when they entered the league. In fact, they probably got excited as kids when they heard of them. There's nothing classless about making a trade in pro sports. Why are people getting so offended at the idea of the senators making a trade?

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Open communication didn't help us keep Heatley, Alfredsson, or Spezza either.

Actually Alfredsson and Murray had zero communication, still confusing how that happened.

And are there any advantages to not having open communication? What I'm taking about is not really profound by any means. Players like to know what's going on.

 

[jbeck5]

Actually Alfredsson and Murray had zero communication, still confusing how that happened.

And are there any advantages to not having open communication? What I'm taking about is not really profound by any means. Players like to know what's going on.

I'll obviously agree the open communication is a good thing.

But there's a difference between open communication and letting the player sway you or have any part in decisions.

Open communication is murray saying "we got an offer for you from a team that is on your allowed list. We're strongly considering it. Just giving you a heads up so you can prepare your family for any upcoming news. I will keep you posted" and ends there.

it isn't "oh you dont want to be traded? ok, we won't trade you then." That's something entirely different then open communication.