2005 Draft Discussion

[Legionnaire]

I think these ignoramuses whining about the possibility of Pittsburgh and Washington getting Crosby should suffer through their 2004 season and see if opinion differs (which it would)

Don't make it seem as though none of us can relate. Even long-time Wing and Devils fans can tell you how that feels...and don't even get me started on being a Kings fan

 

[txpd]

Let's not confuse the success of TB's TEAM with that of the success of TB as an NHL MARKET.....2 totally different things.

TB has grown but it is still a long, long way away from ever becoming a hockey hotbed.

Winning teams bring casual fans but a markets true strength is found when the team is in a down cycle and people still support the team in a proper way.

And Atlanta as well as Washington are simply dreadful sport cities, especially for hockey.The Caps have been around for a significant amount of time and have simply not come close to gaining any traction in that market so yes, it is a waste for 3 of the top 5 or so young stars having to reside in these markets.

Last I checked the Washington Redskins were the top valued professional sports franchise. The Redskins certainly don't show Washington as a dreadful sports city.
Nor does the University of Maryland's basketball and football program. Even Navy draws very well. The Wiz have not won a playoff game in 20 years and you are surprised that they have had attendance problems? However, the Wiz drew as well during the Micheal Jordan years as the Bulls did when he was there and with much less success on the court. The Capitals have had just two problems. They were just about at capacity from 1982 til they moved downtown to the MCI center. They have had some problems translating their suburban fan base to a fan base available to downtown.

secondly, they have burned up the value of making the playoffs by winning in the playoffs so in infrequently. they made the playoffs for 22 out of 24 years including 20 in a row but advanced only twice as far as the conference finals. that what being a heart breaking team can do to its fan base. BUT to say that the Capitals are in a dreadful sports market is just plain untrue.

Its also worth mentioning that Tampa is a dreadful sports market only if you want to use the Lightning's 7 straight years of missing the playoffs as how you want to gauge their product. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers draw very well. all their games are easily sold out. The Bolts were 12th in attendance last season and easily out drew big hockey markets like Boston, Chicago, Calgary and Edmonton.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Ding...Ding...Ding!
When/if the Caps win in the playoffs, they will come.

I hope so. The Caps had a hard time in the not so distant past. I remember the Pens used to fill half the seats in washington when we would play you guys, playoffs included. In fact Leonis one playoff year actually blocked all calls to his ticket office from the Pittsburgh area code to try to make sure that Pens fans did not outnumber the Caps. I do suspect though that unlike Jagr, who is not the most likable of people, AO likely will make a difference and will turn a corner for you guys. I love Malkin, but AO will bring people into your arena.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Also, the point of the NHL is to compete, not suck majorly. The Pens have a solid group of prospects, in my opinion they have a top 3 system, but when you trade away NHL talent in sheepish deals to save money when spending only something like $25M in player salaries is called poor management.
...........

Generally I agree. I certainly hear it on the Pens boards, have for three years. But this CBA, obviously, was a big deal, and made a difference in the calculations. For one, with rising salaries, the Pens could not hold that team together. They had a number of factors going on, not the least of which being that the ownership of the Pens had no other companies to fall back on. Also it was time to rebuild, Patrick knew with salaries rising it would be better to do it sooner rather than drag it out and lose one player after another. Better to start andf then come back after the new CBA. They killed several birds with one stone. I still am failing to see how this was bad management as you claim

 

[NYR469]

Which basically is true for really every market aside from where hockey is religion with the public. (not NY region) Unfortunately for hockey baseball does not have an
off-season any longer in NY and the stars added to those teams make whatever happens in hockey pale in comparison.

I'm not too convinced the Rangers can do anything for the NHL outside their niche when they get so little recognition inside their own market over six months. If there is a bump from any team in the NY area it will have to come with playoff success. It's not easy (even at playoff time) competing with Yankees-Sox-Mets and all those storylines today that are enormous. In another market Crosby could own the back page, so could hockey and that's how the NHL could be helped.

but the big difference between the rangers and most of the other markets is that NYC has 8 million people, most of the other markets have a fraction of that. you are talking about alot more people which means alot more $$. it is just a purely numbers thing

it isn't just a coincedence that in 1994 when the rangers won, hockey was at its alltime high in popularity in the US and it also isn't a coincedence that the last 7 years as the rangers took a nose dive down the crapper so did the league...

NYC is the #1 market and therefore success or failure in that market has a huge impact on the rest of the league. i don't mean to sound like i'm saying the rangers are more important than other teams, because it is about the market not the team. but the reality is that success in nyc is more impactful financially than succses in raleigh...and struggling teams in some of the biggest us markets (ny, la, chicago, boston to a lesser extent) has played a huge role in the leagues current problems.

and also just to note, i'm not saying that the league should rig the lottery. i want to see crosby on broadway and don't really care how it happens as long as it does, but the idea of 'fixing' the lottery is just wrong and unfair. so while i hope we get lucky, i also hope that no 'fix' happens...i'm just simply arguing that the league as a whole would be stronger if the top markets were more successful. ideal situation would be for markets like nyc, la, chicago, toronto, philly, etc to produce more $$ and then help lift up the other markets but since the league doesn't want revenue sharing who knows how much it would help other than claiming the league as a whole was successful even if individual teams weren't.

 

[leafaholix*]

Generally I agree. I certainly hear it on the Pens boards, have for three years. But this CBA, obviously, was a big deal, and made a difference in the calculations. For one, with rising salaries, the Pens could not hold that team together. They had a number of factors going on, not the least of which being that the ownership of the Pens had no other companies to fall back on. Also it was time to rebuild, Patrick knew with salaries rising it would be better to do it sooner rather than drag it out and lose one player after another. Better to start andf then come back after the new CBA. They killed several birds with one stone. I still am failing to see how this was bad management as you claim

The Pens have been the joke of the NHL over the last 3 or so years... to say management has been anything but bad is inaccurate since the purpose of professional hockey is to win games.

I do agree they've done a nice job in building a good system of prospects, but that has more to do with scouting, which is done by scouts... not Patrick.

No sense in arguing this, because I agree they've done relatively well in building a system that may produce a few NHL players, but to say they deserve a much better shot at the best prospect in 20 years because of how poorly they've done in the NHL over the last 3 or 4 years because of sheepish trades that have effectively done as much negative as some of the big market teams get accused of is wrong.

You can't give Crosby out to the lower end teams when there's no hockey season... they're as responsible for this lockout as the big market teams and should not be rewarded with shutting our game down.

 

[AnThGrt]

but the big difference between the rangers and most of the other markets is that NYC has 8 million people, most of the other markets have a fraction of that. you are talking about alot more people which means alot more $$. it is just a purely numbers thing

it isn't just a coincedence that in 1994 when the rangers won, hockey was at its alltime high in popularity in the US and it also isn't a coincedence that the last 7 years as the rangers took a nose dive down the crapper so did the league...

NYC is the #1 market and therefore success or failure in that market has a huge impact on the rest of the league. i don't mean to sound like i'm saying the rangers are more important than other teams, because it is about the market not the team. but the reality is that success in nyc is more impactful financially than succses in raleigh...and struggling teams in some of the biggest us markets (ny, la, chicago, boston to a lesser extent) has played a huge role in the leagues current problems.

and also just to note, i'm not saying that the league should rig the lottery. i want to see crosby on broadway and don't really care how it happens as long as it does, but the idea of 'fixing' the lottery is just wrong and unfair. so while i hope we get lucky, i also hope that no 'fix' happens...i'm just simply arguing that the league as a whole would be stronger if the top markets were more successful. ideal situation would be for markets like nyc, la, chicago, toronto, philly, etc to produce more $$ and then help lift up the other markets but since the league doesn't want revenue sharing who knows how much it would help other than claiming the league as a whole was successful even if individual teams weren't.

Since everyone is saying NYR and you brought up the Kings if anywhere he should go there. Rangers already ahve their fair share of stars and have killed all of them - LA is the 2nd biggest market in the NHL.
The word here also was Crosby may not enter the draft and join the Kings since that is his favorite team and thats where he wants to play - Hence that he practices with them in the summer. The comment that he would think about just signing with the Kings was during the summer so things may of changed yet that is the last i heard..... NYR will simply kill him like all their other stars please dont let him go there - With the Kings he'd actually play more have same popularity and a lot better development

 

[leafaholix*]

LA is the 2nd biggest market in the NHL.

I don't think LA's the 2nd biggest market in the NHL.

The word here also was Crosby may not enter the draft and join the Kings since that is his favorite team and thats where he wants to play

Crosby is a Habs fan... not a Kings fan.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

......

You can't give Crosby out to the lower end teams when there's no hockey season... they're as responsible for this lockout as the big market teams and should not be rewarded with shutting our game down.

Since when was the draft about some moralizing 'reward' or 'punishment', either for 'causing' the lockout or some other reason? It is for giving teams who are at the bottom a CHANCE, not a guarentee but a chance, to catch up. How they got to the bottom never was a consideration. You seem to agree that the Pens, among others, fit the traditional definition and that we definately are at that bottom. So the moralizing really has no place in the weighing of what should be done.

 

[leafaholix*]

Since when was the draft about some moralizing 'reward' or 'punishment', either for 'causing' the lockout or some other reason? It is for giving teams who are at the bottom a CHANCE, not a guarentee but a chance, to catch up. How they got to the bottom never was a consideration. You seem to agree that the Pens, among others, fit the traditional definition. So the moralizing really has no place in the weighing of what should be done.

What's to say Boston wouldn't be at the bottom in 2004/05?

It would be inaccurate to have the draft positioning based on the last 3 years because a team like the Broonz would have been in the bottom 5 or 10 had there been a season. They let 5 solid regulars go in the offseason, you can't push them down to 24 or 25 because they've had success in the past... that's very unfair.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

What's to say Boston wouldn't be at the bottom in 2004/05?

It would be inaccurate to have the draft positioning based on the last 3 years because a team like the Broonz would have been in the bottom 5 or 10 had there been a season. They let 5 solid regulars go in the offseason, you can't push them down to 24 or 25 because they've had success in the past... that's very unfair.

I have said this before. Lose the season and it is impossible to reconstruct totally 'fair.' But you can shoot for a lesser version of unfair. Screwing the ten or so teams who were no where near competing, unjustly rewarding the ten or so teams who were virtually guarenteed to do very well last year, and this coming year(s) to come, is take it up the rear unfair. What you are talking about is a possible fluke throwing the system. Possible? Sure. But much better than definately screwing or unjustly rewarding 2/3 of the league.

 

[DARKSIDE]

Considering all that obscurity an 80 million dollar Ranger team and all it's star players have enjoyed why would Crosby be any more than superstar #25-30 in a market where the media pays little attention to hockey in the first place?

In a place like Nashville he would be the next Gretzky, in Pittsburgh he would be the next Mario.

Yorio's article used old quotes, even last weekend the formula being considered according to Michael Russo in the Florida press (much more credible journalist) is the last three years avg record combined with a weighted lottery that includes each team was what was going to be considered.

Sorry friend, but I don't think Nashville we be a better place then New York for this kid. He'd make more in marketing alone then he would in salary. And I'm sure our the ten or so local newspapers cover a lot more hockey then they do in Nashville. This this coming from a Devils fan, which would be my worst nightmare.

 

[leafaholix*]

Sorry friend, but I don't think Nashville we be a better place then New York for this kid. He'd make more in marketing alone then he would in salary. And I'm sure our the ten or so local newspapers cover a lot more hockey then they do in Nashville. This this coming from a Devils fan, which would be my worst nightmare.

That's right, I think.

Best markets for Crosby would be...

New York
Toronto
Montreal
Philadelphia
Colorado
Edmonton (I just think it's a natural hockey town)
Detroit

 

[Classic Devil]

That's right, I think.

Best markets for Crosby would be...

New York
Toronto
Montreal
Philadelphia
Colorado
Edmonton (I just think it's a natural hockey town)
Detroit

Los Angeles or New York, maybe Toronto.

Honestly though, how many more fans can Toronto and/or Montreal bring into their arenas if they get Crosby? Crosby could revitalize a market, and Los Angeles needs it the most. New York, despite the horrific seasons they've suffered, still gets the fans. Colorado has a huge market as long as they're winning. Same with Detriot. Edmonton just seems small, though the "next Gretzky in Edmonton" might do some good - but not necessarily in American markets. Philadelphia doesn't need him in terms of economics.

Los Angeles is the best bet. Rebuild that market and make it huge again.

 

[Dooney]

Los Angeles or New York, maybe Toronto.

Honestly though, how many more fans can Toronto and/or Montreal bring into their arenas if they get Crosby? Crosby could revitalize a market, and Los Angeles needs it the most. New York, despite the horrific seasons they've suffered, still gets the fans. Colorado has a huge market as long as they're winning. Same with Detriot. Edmonton just seems small, though the "next Gretzky in Edmonton" might do some good - but not necessarily in American markets. Philadelphia doesn't need him in terms of economics.

Los Angeles is the best bet. Rebuild that market and make it huge again.

Post of the Year!! Crosby to Los Angeles. Yeah Baby!

 

[Darth Milbury]

I would be stunned if this weren't partially rigged to get Crosby to one of the big cities -- NYC, CHI, or LA.

Its not fair at all, but I honestly would be surprised if he doesn't end up in one of those places. I don't see any of the high end guys of the union or NHL like Gary have any reason not to do this.

I dunno, maybe I am taking it a little far. But as I said, if they put Crosby in like Washington (where they already have AO) or like Carolina (no offense guys, just not a huge hockey area) I would be shocked. I don't think they'd let it happen.

I heard similar nonsense about Lindros, Brian Bellows, Prince Vincent etc. Fans who live in the major population centers seem to have this sense of entitlement sometimes. You should get Crosby because it is "good for hockey" right?

The draft is not rigged, and the Ranger$ are not going to have any better a shot at Crosby than any other team.

 

[willie]

Los Angeles is the best bet. Rebuild that market and make it huge again.

If the league actually conspired to choose Crosby's destination for the sake of the league, LA could make as good an argument as any. It's a huge market, the fans there do support the team (look at their attendance figures the past two seasons) and adding Crosby would completely rejuvenate the organization. Not to mention, with the Lakers no longer the NBA's top dog, the Kings could create a lot of hype in the LA sports world. And, as I mentioned before, if any team deserves a break from the hockey Gods, it's gotta be the Kings.

That said, it's a moot point as the NHL isn't going to give Crosby to any team. The Kings are going to have to have the balls fall their way just like every other team.

The draft is not rigged, and the Ranger$ are not going to have any better a shot at Crosby than any other team.

Well since it's a weighted lottery based on seeding, the Rangers will have a better chance than every team they finished behind last season. But, yeah, the Rangers aren't going to have Crosby handed to them. (I could only imagine the outrage of Tim Liewieke who has chastised the Rangers in the past, if he found out the Rangers were given Crosby.)

 

[Cosis]

2005 Draft Lottery

From what I have heard on the grapevine, no playoff team from last year will have a chance at the top picks. Which I feel is correct. They shouldnt have a high pick.

No matter how you cut it, the lottery is not going to be fair to someone. Better to go with current trends and have a weighted lottery between the last 14 teams. Better to reward the worst clubs then the better clubs in this situation. The weighted lottery would not be heavily weighted. But would give the very worst clubs a higher odds.



Arguments against and the rebuttals against those poor arguments:

As for the argument that Crosby should go to a big market? Thats just dumb. Hockey is a cult sport. The only fans they have are real fans. They do not carry casual fan bases like the NFL,MLB or the NBA. Lets say you put Crosby in philly or NY. In 5 years the only people who are still gonna give a damn where Crosby is, are hockey fans of those teams and the rest of the leagues fans who are still pissed off at it. The only place he will add fans, is in the city he lands in. Any short lived market gains by the lottery in any city with a chance, will be quickly lost as fast as the person picks up the tv remote to turn the channel. You think any casual fans of all the cities that lose the lottery or actually gonna care afterwards?

Crosby would have greater long term impact on the NHL in Phoenix or Washington then he would in Detroit, Philly or NY. Just by building up a fan base in a weak market.
Dont try and use the TV argument either. Hockeys TV ratings suck. They are immaterial. They cant even beat out a Dog show for petes sake. Hell, they might not even have a TV contract worth spit. Crosby being in NY aint gonna do much to help promote hockey in other US cities. Having him in the USA would help a small bit.Very small bit. This argument is weak at best.

As for the argument that the rich teams are agreeing to revenue sharing and a cap:That argument is totally dead and buried.Its usually one uttered by leafs fans in particular since its the only one they really have. Well too that?... Well duh. If they want to still have a team they have no choice. Cause without either they will own a successful franchise of a soon to be dead league. What good is a money making team in a bankrupt and folded league? None. That means no money then.

Secondly, they will make even MORE money from this then they were without it. Thats a fact. Thats why all the teams are on board for this. The rich clubs are seeing dollar signs. They are thrilled to be getting a cap. (side note, you can forget all that "its 8 teams holding up talks" BS. Its all of em. The owners are totally united on this) So dont think for a second that this lockout is against the will of the rich clubs. Its not. Not even by a longshot.



As for the argument that teams like the Bruins have all their team as free agents. This argument is weak at best.- To that argument? So what? They did that on purpose. They did it so they can sign a bunch of guys for alot less money once the cap was in. It was brilliant planning. Do you honestly think the Bruins are gonna suck the next season that is played? HA. If you do, your a sucker. Theya re looking to be able to dive into an open player market with low salaries.



As for the argument that its not fair to the teams that made the playoffs on a fluke and will suck this year. Its a weak argument since none of us are psychic...To that? Well, that sucks, but somebody is gonna get screwed here. Why should it be the teams who have clearly sucked the last 2 seasons? They are the last ones who should get screwed. Its safe to say the worst ten teams last year have by far the best chance of still being the ten worst teams. We can pretty much guess who will be among the worst teams and who will be among the best. Why not use that then?


The fairest way in all this is to take last years standings, toss out the playoff teams and have a weighted lottery of the worst 10 or 14 to determine the order. Then have the order snaked through the rounds. Then pray the fix isnt in for the Rangers, Kings or Hawks.

There is no perfectly fair way to everyone.None at all. But to say the Avs,Leafs Wings should have the same chance at the first overall pick as Wash, Pitt or the Hawks, is just crazy.

 

[Darth Milbury]

If the league actually conspired to choose Crosby's destination for the sake of the league, LA could make as good an argument as any. It's a huge market, the fans there do support the team (look at their attendance figures the past two seasons) and adding Crosby would completely rejuvenate the organization. Not to mention, with the Lakers no longer the NBA's top dog, the Kings could create a lot of hype in the LA sports world. And, as I mentioned before, if any team deserves a break from the hockey Gods, it's gotta be the Kings.

That said, it's a moot point as the NHL isn't going to give Crosby to any team. The Kings are going to have to have the balls fall their way just like every other team.



Well since it's a weighted lottery based on seeding, the Rangers will have a better chance than every team they finished behind last season. But, yeah, the Rangers aren't going to have Crosby handed to them. (I could only imagine the outrage of Tim Liewieke who has chastised the Rangers in the past, if he found out the Rangers were given Crosby.)

LOL Willie. I think you know what I meant!

Actually, as much as I agree with you about the situation in LA, if we were just talking about "being good for the league", I think Chicago, NY, or Boston would make more sense. I just don't think LA is every going to be a true hockey town. There is too much competition from the baseball teams, basketball, and college sports.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I heard similar nonsense about Lindros, Brian Bellows, Prince Vincent etc. Fans who live in the major population centers seem to have this sense of entitlement sometimes. You should get Crosby because it is "good for hockey" right?

The draft is not rigged, and the Ranger$ are not going to have any better a shot at Crosby than any other team.

No repeat of the Patrick Ewing "lucky draw"?

 

[AnThGrt]

LOL Willie. I think you know what I meant!

Actually, as much as I agree with you about the situation in LA, if we were just talking about "being good for the league", I think Chicago, NY, or Boston would make more sense. I just don't think LA is every going to be a true hockey town. There is too much competition from the baseball teams, basketball, and college sports.

LA sold out almost every game the past few years - We are said to be one of the top 5 fans in the NHL debateably #1 so i dont know what you. Yes there is competition yet living here Kings are still a huge part of this area.....

 

[Wetcoaster]

What draft?

 

[Cosis]

What draft?

There will be a draft this year one way or another. Might not be in June but there will be one sometime in 2005. Most likely before October.

Damn, posted this in wrong forum. Sorry all.

 

[Cosis]

2005 Draft Lottery

posted this in wrong forum first time if anyone is wondering.

From what I have heard on the grapevine, no playoff team from last year will have a chance at the top picks. Which I feel is correct. They shouldnt have a high pick.

No matter how you cut it, the lottery is not going to be fair to someone. Better to go with current trends and have a weighted lottery between the last 14 teams. Better to reward the worst clubs then the better clubs in this situation. The weighted lottery would not be heavily weighted. But would give the very worst clubs a higher odds.



Arguments against and the rebuttals against those poor arguments:

As for the argument that Crosby should go to a big market? Thats just dumb. Hockey is a cult sport. The only fans they have are real fans. They do not carry casual fan bases like the NFL,MLB or the NBA. Lets say you put Crosby in philly or NY. In 5 years the only people who are still gonna give a damn where Crosby is, are hockey fans of those teams and the rest of the leagues fans who are still pissed off at it. The only place he will add fans, is in the city he lands in. Any short lived market gains by the lottery in any city with a chance, will be quickly lost as fast as the person picks up the tv remote to turn the channel. You think any casual fans of all the cities that lose the lottery or actually gonna care afterwards?

Crosby would have greater long term impact on the NHL in Phoenix or Washington then he would in Detroit, Philly or NY. Just by building up a fan base in a weak market.
Dont try and use the TV argument either. Hockeys TV ratings suck. They are immaterial. They cant even beat out a Dog show for petes sake. Hell, they might not even have a TV contract worth spit. Crosby being in NY aint gonna do much to help promote hockey in other US cities. Having him in the USA would help a small bit.Very small bit. This argument is weak at best.

As for the argument that the rich teams are agreeing to revenue sharing and a cap:That argument is totally dead and buried.Its usually one uttered by leafs fans in particular since its the only one they really have. Well too that?... Well duh. If they want to still have a team they have no choice. Cause without either they will own a successful franchise of a soon to be dead league. What good is a money making team in a bankrupt and folded league? None. That means no money then.

Secondly, they will make even MORE money from this then they were without it. Thats a fact. Thats why all the teams are on board for this. The rich clubs are seeing dollar signs. They are thrilled to be getting a cap. (side note, you can forget all that "its 8 teams holding up talks" BS. Its all of em. The owners are totally united on this) So dont think for a second that this lockout is against the will of the rich clubs. Its not. Not even by a longshot.



As for the argument that teams like the Bruins have all their team as free agents. This argument is weak at best.- To that argument? So what? They did that on purpose. They did it so they can sign a bunch of guys for alot less money once the cap was in. It was brilliant planning. Do you honestly think the Bruins are gonna suck the next season that is played? HA. If you do, your a sucker. Theya re looking to be able to dive into an open player market with low salaries.



As for the argument that its not fair to the teams that made the playoffs on a fluke and will suck this year. Its a weak argument since none of us are psychic...To that? Well, that sucks, but somebody is gonna get screwed here. Why should it be the teams who have clearly sucked the last 2 seasons? They are the last ones who should get screwed. Its safe to say the worst ten teams last year have by far the best chance of still being the ten worst teams. We can pretty much guess who will be among the worst teams and who will be among the best. Why not use that then?


The fairest way in all this is to take last years standings, toss out the playoff teams and have a weighted lottery of the worst 10 or 14 to determine the order. Then have the order snaked through the rounds. Then pray the fix isnt in for the Rangers, Kings or Hawks.

There is no perfectly fair way to everyone.None at all. But to say the Avs,Leafs Wings should have the same chance at the first overall pick as Wash, Pitt or the Hawks, is just crazy.

 

[Sparepart]

How about letting Crosby decide where he wants to play? Instead of everyone fighting over him like he's a piece of meat.

This situation is so messed up that nobody is going to be happy no matter how its resolved. We might as well let Crosby be happy and choose his own team. I HATE the idea of using 03-04 standings to decide the 2005 order, how the hell is that fair? Nobody knows how the standings would have looked had 04-05 been played, They'd probably be very different from the 03-04 ones. So why give the crappy 03-04 teams an advantage? Screw that. I'd prefer a random 30 team draw to that.


Isnt it funny (typical) how everyone wants to use the draft-system that benefits their team the most? (I'm guilty myself) You people make me sick. LET CROSBY BE FREE!

(I'm a Habs fan )


Or hey, how about this? We put the GM's of all 30 NHL teams on a deserted Island somewhere in the pacific for 32 days. The last survivor is the winner, and gets Crosby. It could be televised, Ron McLean could be the host, they could use Hockey Sticks instead of Torch's... "Survivor: Crosby". Why not? Hockey fans have nothing else to watch during the lockout... (In case its not obvious, or your really slow, I'm not being serious in this post.. except the part about the 03-04 standings)