2005 Draft Discussion

[NYR469]

Considering all that obscurity an 80 million dollar Ranger team and all it's star players have enjoyed why would Crosby be any more than superstar #25-30 in a market where the media pays little attention to hockey in the first place?

ny pays attention to the rangers when they win, the 'superstars' in recent years haven't drawn interest because the team has been awful. the idea isn't that you could simply throw crosby in ny and say 'here he is' and everyone would come running, but rather if the rangers stick to their rebuild plan and then you throw in someone like crosby as a franchise player, he will make the team better. and if the rangers become a good team again with him interest will rise and the ny market will help the entire league improve...

crosby's impact would be wasted in any city if he was on a horrible team for his whole career, but the theory/hope is that he will make the team better and that bad team won't be bad anymore a few years from now...

 

[hfboardsuser]

That'd be Factorial I believe

I'm thinking permutation.

 

[NYR469]

Jeez Louise, talk about trying to have your cake and eating it too.

you know i've never understood that expression...what the hell are you supposed to do with your cake besides eat it?? its food, its supposed to be eaten

 

[NYR469]

Can they help it that the former CBA prevented small market teams from icing a competitive team to make the playoffs?

Sorry.. but the big market teams (except for the Rangers) had it good the last 10 years... you made the playoffs and had all kinds of success while the small guys didn't... and the point of a draft is to allow those teams turn it around... so why dont u let them?

the draft is supposed to work that way, but then you have teams like philly, ottawa, nj and det picking late in each round and coming away with better prospects then the teams picking at the top of the draft so you can't blame it all on $$, thats just a convient excuse. there are many things that are unfair about the split between the haves and have nots in the league. but alot of those small market teams are continuously unsuccessful because they make bad decisions.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Getting a little tired of the small-market whining, personally.

You are not entitled to the top picks, not when we didn't even play a season this year, and tons of teams don't even have half a roster signed for next season.

You have an equally annoying sense of entitlement because your team sucks/is poor/is unsuccessful.

It'll be ridiculous if it's really only between Washington and Pittsburgh to get Crosby. That isn't fair either, not when you've already gotten Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. You've already been rewarded for sucking, and now you want more?

No system can be 'fair' entirely when a season is lost. But common sense says that if you have to choose between 'unfair' and asking certain teams to bend over and take it unfair, you choose the first.

Compare these rosters, including the probability of who will remain and/or who will come in from the minors next year, and tell me who you are telling to bend over?

http://www.hockeynut.com/pitroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/phoroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/chiroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/wasroster.html




http://www.hockeynut.com/colroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/torroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/detroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/ottroster.html
http://www.hockeynut.com/phiroster.html

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

The Leafs were a joke during the 1980's.

I think you forgot to mention the 1990's and the 21st Century as well
:lol

 

[Thornton97]

How about they just put 465 names in a barrel.

30 Pittsburgh
29 Chicago
28 Washington
1 Tampa Bay etc

465 being 30! (dont know the english word for the (!) math formula)

That's factorial, but it means you multiply all the numbers in the list and not add them.

As for the article, if the name Kara Yorio is on it, it means it is about as far from the truth as possible. That being said, I'm fairly confident the NHL will decide to just use the same order as last draft without any lottery whatsoever! :lol

No, but seriously, if this is the case, it is really disappointing for a few clubs that are either entering into rebuild or "mini" rebuild mode (St. Louis, Boston). As a Bruins fan, I don't care about SC. I'd love him with the B, but I know we'd never get anywhere near the top slot. Yet I know that we would not even be close to 27 or 28th or whatever we were last season. We'd probably end up with a top-15 pick if not hovering near top 10. Same goes for the Blues. Really disappoiting IMO.

 

[Patty Ice]

Ah yes,because we all know that the same 5 teams that suck year in and year out should always get the top picks right?

Thats generally how all sports drafts work...yes.

 

[Levitate]

The Caps have a good market. Washington has a fiercly loyal fan base. The Redskins are the second most profitable sports franchise on the face of the earth next to Manchester United.

I believe the Caps were 12th in attendance the year they signed Jagr and mid-range for some time before that. They made the playoffs for something like 13 straight seasons if I'm correct. Don't the last year and a half fool you. Perpetually underachieving takes the wind out of any sports town.

this is true...when i moved here i was kind of amazed about how sports insane the area is, redskins especially even though they suck. the wizards are actually garnering quite a bit of interest now with the good season they're having, especially cuz their home record is so good, and there's a good buzz going on about the nationals and they don't even have an owner yet. if the caps were successful, they'd do alright in washington. maybe not fantastic cuz it doesn't strike me as a really big hockey town, but there are enough sports nuts that people would definatly go and buy merchanise, etc

 

[NYIsles1*]

ny pays attention to the rangers when they win, the 'superstars' in recent years haven't drawn interest because the team has been awful.

Which basically is true for really every market aside from where hockey is religion with the public. (not NY region) Unfortunately for hockey baseball does not have an
off-season any longer in NY and the stars added to those teams make whatever happens in hockey pale in comparison.

the idea isn't that you could simply throw crosby in ny and say 'here he is' and everyone would come running, but rather if the rangers stick to their rebuild plan and then you throw in someone like crosby as a franchise player, he will make the team better. and if the rangers become a good team again with him interest will rise and the ny market will help the entire league improve...

I'm not too convinced the Rangers can do anything for the NHL outside their niche when they get so little recognition inside their own market over six months. If there is a bump from any team in the NY area it will have to come with playoff success. It's not easy (even at playoff time) competing with Yankees-Sox-Mets and all those storylines today that are enormous. In another market Crosby could own the back page, so could hockey and that's how the NHL could be helped.

crosby's impact would be wasted in any city if he was on a horrible team for his whole career, but the theory/hope is that he will make the team better and that bad team won't be bad anymore a few years from now...

I agree and that will be the hope wherever he goes.

 

[Legionnaire]

No wonder Chicago didn't want to play the season.

 

[NYIsles1*]

Question about Washington..

When they played in Landover it seemed like they were very popular, had great fan support and were very visible with the public. I thought moving into the D.C area and a beautiful new arena combined with going to a final would make them enormous in that market. It seemed like moving from Nassau Coliseum into Manhattan to me at the time, even though I had only been to the Cap Center a few times and do not know the exact proximity in the relocation.

Am I misreading that market or has it been the decline in hockey. It just does not seem like the same Caps that had some electricity and were a fun team to watch when they were in Landover. I'm still trying to figure out why they switched uniforms.

I think Crosby could help the league a lot in that market.

 

[PanthersRule96]

How about they just put 465 names in a barrel.

30 Pittsburgh
29 Chicago
28 Washington
1 Tampa Bay etc

465 being 30! (dont know the english word for the (!) math formula)

!= factorial.

 

[leafaholix*]

One reason why they won't average out the last 3 years... a team like Boston.

Contenders the last few years and if there had been a season, they would have likely missed the playoffs, possibly with a top 10 pick. The Bruins aren't going to agree to a draft that averages out the last 3 years, it would make no sense for them or the league.

Hopefully the CBA's not settled by June and they become UFA's, these small market pits need to learn who's boss... they cost us an entire hockey season and messed up our league.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

One reason why they won't average out the last 3 years... a team like Boston.

Contenders the last few years and if there had been a season, they would have likely missed the playoffs, possibly with a top 10 pick. The Bruins aren't going to agree to a draft that averages out the last 3 years, it would make no sense for them or the league.

Hopefully the CBA's not settled by June and they become UFA's, these small market pits need to learn who's boss... they cost us an entire hockey season and messed up our league.

The idea is total nonsense, for reasons adressed a myriad of times in other threads. However, if it were not nonsense, cool. My Pens only have about $8 million committed ($11 million - 25%) and need to sign someone. Face it, even in your fantasy solution the small markets would clean up even more. What could Toronto, Detroit, Philly, etc. offer to compete and still remain under the coming cap?

 

[se7en*]

Ahhh the total arrogant facade of rich teams - 'teach small-market pits who's boss', . I think 8 of those small-market pits just recently proved whose opinion actually matters.

 

[Marshall]

When they played in Landover it seemed like they were very popular, had great fan support and were very visible with the public. I thought moving into the D.C area and a beautiful new arena combined with going to a final would make them enormous in that market. It seemed like moving from Nassau Coliseum into Manhattan to me at the time, even though I had only been to the Cap Center a few times and do not know the exact proximity in the relocation.

Am I misreading that market or has it been the decline in hockey. It just does not seem like the same Caps that had some electricity and were a fun team to watch when they were in Landover. I'm still trying to figure out why they switched uniforms.

I think Crosby could help the league a lot in that market.

The big problem has been the fact that the Caps are king of the first-round exit. No matter the record, they go into the first round, and they get bounced, and usually by the Penguins. Kornehiser, whom I am not a fan of, nailed it when he nickenamed them the choking dogs. They don't get much media support locally, either.

The fair-weather Caps fan is very, very wary of Caps' regular season success, and only tends to pay attention after the first round.

 

[se7en*]

I think these ignoramuses whining about the possibility of Pittsburgh and Washington getting Crosby should suffer through their 2004 season and see if opinion differs (which it would)

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think these ignoramuses whining about the possibility of Pittsburgh and Washington getting Crosby should suffer through their 2004 season and see if opinion differs (which it would)

2004? Try the past three Pens' seasons. It has been absolutely brutal to watch. Whatever comes our way we have earned, in spades.

What I would be more curious about is those fans who are criticizing the teams that are low in standings and low in attendence, let me see how they do attendence wise if they go through a three year stretch like we have. Toronto likely would still do fine, I have grave doubts about many of the other places. Be careful about your smugness, you might be a couple years of losses from having to eat your words.

 

[MeatTornado]

they cost us an entire hockey season and messed up our league.

Yeah, the big markets spending tons of money on players had nothing to do with it

 

[leafaholix*]

Ahhh the total arrogant facade of rich teams - 'teach small-market pits who's boss', . I think 8 of those small-market pits just recently proved whose opinion actually matters.

It's ironic because once the league starts up and these pits can't draw more than 12,000 people a game... they'll cry for help and eventually some will fold.

 

[leafaholix*]

2004? Try the past three Pens' seasons. It has been absolutely brutal to watch. Whatever comes our way we have earned, in spades.

There's no doubt the fans of the Pens deserve a great shot at Crosby, but you cannot reward an organization for poor management.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

There's no doubt the fans of the Pens deserve a great shot at Crosby, but you cannot reward an organization for poor management.

Poor management? Here is a quarter, go buy a clue.

1. Craig Patrick is already in the hall of fame.
2. The Pens positioned themselves earlier than anyone else, and better than anyone else for the new hockey environment. And did so intentionally. So well that they seem to have fooled some of the bozos here, who forget that the Pens regularly had a payroll in the low to mid $30 million mark as recently as 2001 and 2002 seasons.
3. Only about $8 million committed leaving a likely $25 million or so to spend on UFA's when hockey starts again.
4. Pens had the least $$$$ losses of any team in hockey who had losses last year.
5. Pens virtually have a new arena in hand.
6. Maffy, Malkin, likely top five pick this year, and HF has us the number two rated organization for prospects coming up, and that ranking does not even include many that graduated last year like Brooks Orpik. Nor does it include players picked up in the dispersal draft from teams over the cap. They will pick first most likely in that draft too either from finishing last or by virtue of being furthest under the Cap.

Sound like bad management to you? How many teams would trade their future for ours? It may take a few years but CP has positioned us well and I doubt that any could argue the point.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

The big problem has been the fact that the Caps are king of the first-round exit. No matter the record, they go into the first round, and they get bounced, and usually by the Penguins. Kornehiser, whom I am not a fan of, nailed it when he nickenamed them the choking dogs. They don't get much media support locally, either.

The fair-weather Caps fan is very, very wary of Caps' regular season success, and only tends to pay attention after the first round.

Ding...Ding...Ding!
When/if the Caps win in the playoffs, they will come.

 

[leafaholix*]

Poor management? Here is a quarter, go buy a clue.

1. Craig Patrick is already in the hall of fame.
2. The Pens positioned themselves earlier than anyone else, and better than anyone else for the new hockey environment. And did so intentionally. So well that they seem to have fooled some of the bozos here, who forget that the Pens regularly had a payroll in the low to mid $30 million mark as recently as 2001 and 2002 seasons.
3. Only about $8 million committed leaving a likely $25 million or so to spend on UFA's when hockey starts again.
4. Pens had the least losses of any team in hockey who had losses last year.
5. Pens virtually have a new arena in hand.
6. Maffy, Malkin, likely top five pick this year, and the number two rated prospects overall coming up in hockey, which does not even include many that graduated last year like Brooks Orpik. Nor does it include players picked up in the dispersal draft from teams over the cap. They will pick first most likely in that draft too either from finishing last or by virtue of being furthest under the Cap.

Sound like bad management to you? How many teams would trade their future for ours? It may take a few years but CP has positioned us well and I doubt that any could argue the point.

First, what dispersal draft? I thought that was just a rumour a few months back, nothing's official. And since the season's cancelled, most teams have less than $40M committed for 2005/06, there likely won't be a dispersal draft.

Also, the point of the NHL is to compete, not suck majorly. The Pens have a solid group of prospects, in my opinion they have a top 3 system, but when you trade away NHL talent in sheepish deals to save money when spending only something like $25M in player salaries is called poor management.

Not every Pens fan cares about what the system looks like, hockey fans want their teams to win hockey games... not trade away Kovalev and Straka for Martin Strbak, Sergei Anshakov, Joel Bouchard, Martin Samuelsson, etc...