2005 Draft Discussion

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Jaded-Fan

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FREE DENTAL CARE said:
I guess my question was how the NHL can make a declaration about how the draft will be conducted in the absence of a new CBA. Assuming that the draft will be part of the new CBA. Won't the "draft clause" in the new CBA determine how this draft will be conducted? Is that clear?


I get what you are saying now. Technically I suppose that is so, if part of the CBA the players have a say. Practically though I highly doubt that the draft is anywhere on the NHLPA radar as an issue so the league can at least say what they have decided and know that the NHLPA will not raise much of a fuss.
 

NYIsles1*

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Jaded-Fan said:
BTW, I have seen in the recent past past the NHL saying that the options considered included three that they mentioned, including averaging over several years and the option in this thread. I need to find the quote though and do not currently have the time.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/hockey/panthers/sfl-russo20feb20,0,6521812.column

Draft issues

Whenever the NHL holds its next draft, a contentious issue will be which team gets the No. 1 pick. Bettman said a draft will be held before play begins again.

One scenario being discussed to determine a draft order is to compile the records of the last three seasons and average them. That actually would give the Panthers a chance at winning the lottery and drafting Quebec League phenom Sidney Crosby.
 

JR#9*

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txpd said:
I think you need to face the likelyhood that Crosby will end up on a very bad hockey team. Or at least a team that was very bad in 2003-04. That means that the Blackhawks and the Rangers will have a reasonable chance to get the guy.

On the otherhand I don't think that having Kovulchuk and Heatley(pre accident) in Atlanta was a tragedy for the NHL in anyway. They are huge NHL names and fans want to see them play. With Bob Hartley as coach and a new CBA allowing for so much more player movement, that could be a headline making team next year.
At this point I don't think its a tragedy for the NHL that Vinny Lecavalier is in Tampa Bay, do you? I think that has worked out well.

Frankly the idea of Crosby and Ovechkin on the same team, like Heatley and Kovulchuk would do something that the league desperately needs. It would drive interest in the 15 or 20 NHL teams that fall off the national radar. Because they have no identity they have no drawing ability on tv and create stars much slower
because of their lack of attention. People will watch the Flyers regardless. The Thrashers and Capitals with two superstars each will create the kind of market throught the league that the entire NHL needs from teams like Washington, Tampa, Atlanta, Pheonix.

Let's not confuse the success of TB's TEAM with that of the success of TB as an NHL MARKET.....2 totally different things.

TB has grown but it is still a long, long way away from ever becoming a hockey hotbed.

Winning teams bring casual fans but a markets true strength is found when the team is in a down cycle and people still support the team in a proper way.

And Atlanta as well as Washington are simply dreadful sport cities, especially for hockey.The Caps have been around for a significant amount of time and have simply not come close to gaining any traction in that market so yes, it is a waste for 3 of the top 5 or so young stars having to reside in these markets.
 

NYIsles1*

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JR#9 said:
Winning teams bring casual fans but a markets true strength is found when the team is in a down cycle and people still support the team in a proper way.
And of course a place like Msg that could not fill it's seats with a roster full of all-stars
for several years with the highest payroll's in NHL history w/television ratings equal to 60,000 home per game and who's owner claims the most losses in the NHL supports it's team the proper way?

Let's send every young star to Msg to help the Rangers because Leetch, Richter, Messier, Jagr, Kovalev, Bure, Carter, Lindros, Holik just were not enough. :dunno:
 

mymkovski

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How about they just put 465 names in a barrel.

30 Pittsburgh
29 Chicago
28 Washington
1 Tampa Bay etc

465 being 30! (dont know the english word for the (!) math formula)

That'd be Factorial I believe
 

EroCaps

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JR#9 said:
Let's not confuse the success of TB's TEAM with that of the success of TB as an NHL MARKET.....2 totally different things.

TB has grown but it is still a long, long way away from ever becoming a hockey hotbed.

Winning teams bring casual fans but a markets true strength is found when the team is in a down cycle and people still support the team in a proper way.

And Atlanta as well as Washington are simply dreadful sport cities, especially for hockey.The Caps have been around for a significant amount of time and have simply not come close to gaining any traction in that market so yes, it is a waste for 3 of the top 5 or so young stars having to reside in these markets.

The Caps have a good market. Washington has a fiercly loyal fan base. The Redskins are the second most profitable sports franchise on the face of the earth next to Manchester United.

I believe the Caps were 12th in attendance the year they signed Jagr and mid-range for some time before that. They made the playoffs for something like 13 straight seasons if I'm correct. Don't the last year and a half fool you. Perpetually underachieving takes the wind out of any sports town.
 

Charge_Seven

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I'd like to see a completely open lottery...it'd be fantastic...

That being said, it won't happen, the NHL cares too much for the small markets.
 

Gwyddbwyll

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The greed of the fans of the big teams is sickening.

You've got the best players and had the best competitive records and now you want the best prospects too?

Then turn around and say all these small markets should be contracted because they're such failures, failing to compete with the smallest players, smallest fanbases, worst players and without the best prospects to develop. Jeez Louise, talk about trying to have your cake and eating it too. Would do some of those big team fans some good to have a few bad years.
 

GodZillaAteMyZamboni

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mymkovski said:
That'd be Factorial I believe
:teach:
To calculate the factorial of 30:
30*29*28*...*1 Which equals something like 2.65 * 10 raised to the 32nd power.

What you really want is the SUM of all numbers from 1 to 30:
30+29+28+...+1 which equals 465
:)
 

John Flyers Fan

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Gwyddbwyll said:
The greed of the fans of the big teams is sickening.

You've got the best players and had the best competitive records and now you want the best prospects too?

Then turn around and say all these small markets should be contracted because they're such failures, failing to compete with the smallest players, smallest fanbases, worst players and without the best prospects to develop. Jeez Louise, talk about trying to have your cake and eating it too. Would do some of those big team fans some good to have a few bad years.

Most fans of the big teams have seen plenty of bad years, other than perhaps some people that became Avalanche fans when they moved to Denver.

Detroit was a horrible for the 70's and significant part of the 1980's.

Quebec was a disaster for a number of years before they became the power that is the Avalanche.

The Flyers missed the playoffs for 5 straight years during the early 90's.

The Leafs were a joke during the 1980's.

New Jersey was a laughing stock in Denver and the early years in New Jersey.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Fletch said:
you failed to mention that the Rangers have missed the palyoffs 7 seasons in a row.

Well I didn't think he was speaking about the Rangers when he said:

You've got the best players and had the best competitive records

;) ;)
 

se7en*

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Gwyddbwyll said:
The greed of the fans of the big teams is sickening.

You've got the best players and had the best competitive records and now you want the best prospects too?

Then turn around and say all these small markets should be contracted because they're such failures, failing to compete with the smallest players, smallest fanbases, worst players and without the best prospects to develop. Jeez Louise, talk about trying to have your cake and eating it too. Would do some of those big team fans some good to have a few bad years.

I totally agree. Whether they had bad seasons 20 years ago is completely irrevelant, and should not be rewarded with the best picks over the non-playoff teams. I'd like to see a lottery for only the non-playoff teams of 2004 to get a chance for Crosby.
 

CH Wizard

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Skittles.TML said:
How about they flip over the draft order.

Yeah , the leafs would finally get a quality young prospect for once.j/k ;) :D

Btw , I'm not against a lottery.I'd like to see a 2005 draft (Bettman promised that there'll be a 2005 draft before the next season or before the next year , no?).I'd definitaley don't like to see a combined draft.
 

Old Hickory

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willie said:
Oh, how the hockey Gods owe us... :)

One Sidney Crosby would sufficiently repay the debt. ;)
I don't think I have ever agreed more with a post in my life! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Willie for President!
 

Jaded-Fan

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John Flyers Fan said:
Well I didn't think he was speaking about the Rangers when he said:

You've got the best players and had the best competitive records

;) ;)


The Rags are one of the teams with the better of the chances under a weighted system as described in this thread. I think, to be fair, he was referring to teams with success the past years and who remain stacked, even if one or two teams need to shed a player to get under $42 million (or whatever the number is), they will not lose more than that and will be stacked next year. The top player on my team will be Brooks Orpik most likely next year. How about we compare the top five players for Detroit, Colorado, Toronto, Philly next year to mine? Or Washingtons? Or Phoenix or Chicago's? How about our top tens? It is piggish to expect . . . and that is the word . . . expect . . . that you get an equal chance at a top or the top pick. I agree with him, it is piggish and you are being disengenuous if you say with any sort of a straight face that 'oh my, our teams may be decimated next year, who knows? Whine, whine, whine.' Bullcrap. And you all know it.
 
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Amadeus

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Jaded-Fan said:
Finally, some definitive word on the draft:

The draft

The cancellation of the season does not necessarily mean there won't be a draft in June. There is time to get a new CBA in place before then, which would allow the draft to go on as planned. However, there is little motivation to get a deal done by then, so the draft is unlikely to happen on schedule. Agents are gauging the legality of having their draft-eligible players declared unrestricted free agents if there isn't a draft. So, phenom Sidney Crosby, for example, could end up going to the highest bidder instead of the team with the top pick.


No matter the result of that legal wrangling, a draft must be held before the next NHL season begins. The NHL's Bill Daly has said the order of the draft would be decided in a 30-team lottery weighted on the results of the 2003-04 season.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3410810

As a ps, this does guarentee that my Pens have the best chance at Crosby, now all that is to be determined is how good that chance is. Anywhere close to the standard 48.5% chance or far lower? I would have to guess that it would have to be at least 25% chance or better and I can not imagine Tampa Bay for instance being given better than a token chance. But the final statement on the draft above opens a lot to speculation.



I am guessing that a few details have been left out of the above, and that they will not allow a team to rise or fall more than say 10 spaces as that would make sense. If not I am not especially happy. No matter the wieghting there is no way that having the bottom five teams potentially fall to 30 is anywhere near reflective of playing out a season. None of those teams would likely rise above bottom 10 status. And top five, six or seven teams? Ending up worst or anywhere near even middle of the pack? That is a joke. I have to believe that they will tier how far you can fall at least.

Thats BS! That is sooo BS!!
 

chriss_co

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I think to determine the draft order, they should take the 2003-2004 standings and do a random lottery in 5-team intervals...

ie the 5 worst teams do a lottery to determine the 5 spots, then the next 5 teams with a lottery to determine the 5 spots etc all the way to 30. This way there is some reality in that teams can move up and down.

After they simulate a new 30 team ranking, they should then conduct a lottery for the first pick overall like normal (the bottom 14 teams using same weighted %)
 

NYR469

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the first big question i have is will the lottery be to determine the order of 1-30 or only the #1 pick?? in other words are they going to use the 2003-04 standings and give everyone a shot to jump to #1 to get crosby and pit picks #2 at worst. or will they pick 30 teams and determine the entire draft order

and if they do that is it really fair if the draft order holds from round to round so the team that picks last in the 1st round via a lottery picks last in every round?? that means that team basically gets screwed 9 times by the lottery depending on which team it is
 

Morbo

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Jaded-Fan said:
It is piggish to expect . . . and that is the word . . . expect . . . that you get an equal chance at a top or the top pick. I agree with him, it is piggish and you are being disengenuous if you say with any sort of a straight face that 'oh my, our teams may be decimated next year, who knows? Whine, whine, whine.' Bullcrap. And you all know it.

Getting a little tired of the small-market whining, personally.

You are not entitled to the top picks, not when we didn't even play a season this year, and tons of teams don't even have half a roster signed for next season.

You have an equally annoying sense of entitlement because your team sucks/is poor/is unsuccessful.

It'll be ridiculous if it's really only between Washington and Pittsburgh to get Crosby. That isn't fair either, not when you've already gotten Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. You've already been rewarded for sucking, and now you want more?
 

chriss_co

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PepNCheese said:
Getting a little tired of the small-market whining, personally.

You are not entitled to the top picks, not when we didn't even play a season this year, and tons of teams don't even have half a roster signed for next season.

You have an equally annoying sense of entitlement because your team sucks/is poor/is unsuccessful.

It'll be ridiculous if it's really only between Washington and Pittsburgh to get Crosby. That isn't fair either, not when you've already gotten Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. You've already been rewarded for sucking, and now you want more?

Can they help it that the former CBA prevented small market teams from icing a competitive team to make the playoffs?

Sorry.. but the big market teams (except for the Rangers) had it good the last 10 years... you made the playoffs and had all kinds of success while the small guys didn't... and the point of a draft is to allow those teams turn it around... so why dont u let them?
 
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