Zetterberg to the Leafs?

[The Zetterberg Era]

Helping the Leafs next year, could impact you three years down the road... It really isn't that simple, especially if the return isn't at a premium for them to do business with. Maybe there are enough player choices out there and there are a few that they can list to find somebody else. But if you were to do it, I would make them pay through the nose for that. It is significantly more dangerous to do this in division. Rather than sign a cheap veteran Ontario boy with their LTIR money, I want them to ruin one of their prospects by rushing him up and killing his confidence. I mean I will feel bad for that player, but I hate the Leafs and while I am sorry that dude will be collateral damage in the scheme from a human element, but honestly it is overridden by maybe that screws something up in their next couple off-seasons. The fact is I don't want to help them unless we are getting something significant to do it.

 

[newfy]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but is this your opinion? Or did you read something that lays these rules out in the CBA?

This is my opinion based on what has happened in the past, I havent read into the actual CBA. Toronto wants a cap hit, not an actual player. They arent going to ban Zetterberg from going to the wings facilities. I'm basing that off Pronger literally working for the league and being under contract in Philly at the same time. If a player can be under contract for a team and actually work for the league, they arent gong to stop a player from hanging out around an arena of the team he spent his entire career with

 

[kliq]

This is my opinion based on what has happened in the past, I havent read into the actual CBA. Toronto wants a cap hit, not an actual player. They arent going to ban Zetterberg from going to the wings facilities. I'm basing that off Pronger literally working for the league and being under contract in Philly at the same time. If a player can be under contract for a team and actually work for the league, they arent gong to stop a player from hanging out around an arena of the team he spent his entire career with

I get your logic, like I said I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m just curious if anyone has anything definitive about this. Pronger situation was similar, but still different.

 

[NotLeddy]

At first I thought that this was a rumor and that he was leaving the Wings organization to take on a job with the Leafs and was pretty relieved to see it was only this.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is my opinion based on what has happened in the past, I havent read into the actual CBA. Toronto wants a cap hit, not an actual player. They arent going to ban Zetterberg from going to the wings facilities. I'm basing that off Pronger literally working for the league and being under contract in Philly at the same time. If a player can be under contract for a team and actually work for the league, they arent gong to stop a player from hanging out around an arena of the team he spent his entire career with

It is hard to say on this option as Pronger didn't live in Philadelphia at the time. So one of the things we are talking about doesn't really apply as Chris Pronger was not likely to show up at the Flyers team facilities, he moved back to St. Louis while he was still in the throws of his post-concussion symptoms. I believe he was commuting between St. Louis and Toronto for his league job. Also, let's not pretend and I certainly shouldn't as a vocal detractor at the time of this that him holding a league position while under contract to another team was something acceptable visually. I thought that was a very bad look, but the league did pass that as legal in their rulebook.

Also is this not the same board that has spent 4 years complaining about us dropping down four spots and adding an additional second round pick to dump a contract? A second round pick is significantly better even while losing 4 spots in the first in terms of assets than anything people are discussing here to help the Leafs manipulate the cap in my opinion...

I am curious what Z's role in the organization will actually be. He was pretty firm that he was going to stay in the Detroit area as his career wound down. But we haven't heard much on what he is doing like Kronwall. Now it might be they are waiting until the end of next year.

It is also important to know none of us really know the inner workings of how the insurance on these guys works, how often they are tested to keep their salaries being covered by a third party. I have asked some people in the game, I do know there are check-ups and testing. Even the European guys like when Hossa was going into LTIR had to endure several tests and continued check-ups for the payments to continue being covered by insurance. Which is a part of why these cannot really be as fake as many fans claim they are.

 

[SirloinUB]

Helping the Leafs next year, could impact you three years down the road... It really isn't that simple, especially if the return isn't at a premium for them to do business with. Maybe there are enough player choices out there and there are a few that they can list to find somebody else. But if you were to do it, I would make them pay through the nose for that. It is significantly more dangerous to do this in division. Rather than sign a cheap veteran Ontario boy with their LTIR money, I want them to ruin one of their prospects by rushing him up and killing his confidence. I mean I will feel bad for that player, but I hate the Leafs and while I am sorry that dude will be collateral damage in the scheme from a human element, but honestly it is overridden by maybe that screws something up in their next couple off-seasons. The fact is I don't want to help them unless we are getting something significant to do it.

And if the leafs can’t find a trade of this nature that helps them out of their cap crunch they may need to ship out other assets. Whether that means attaching a high pick to dump a contract or maybe shipping out a guy like kapanen or Johansson for cheap. To me helping them out of this jam for a cheap pick is like hoarding pennies. You’re just not going accumulate enough value to actually make it worth while.

I’m all for adding extra late round picks, but to help a rival out of jam for a late pick is wild to me.

Another thought. Settling for a low price on this move hurts you in future negotiations. If you’re always willing to settle for a low price, teams just won’t take you seriously on your high price asks in a trade. Sometime you have to dig in and say my asset is worth what I say it’s worth. If the downside of digging in on your trade value is not getting an extra 7th rounder, I won’t lose a second of sleep over it.

The leafs can kick rocks if they want us to help them out for cheap

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And if the leafs can’t find a trade of this nature that helps them out of their cap crunch they may need to ship out other assets. Whether that means attaching a high pick to dump a contract or maybe shipping out a guy like kapanen or Johansson for cheap. To me helping them out of this jam for a cheap pick is like hoarding pennies. You’re just not going accumulate enough value to actually make it worth while.

I’m all for adding extra late round picks, but to help a rival out of jam for a late pick is wild to me.

Another thought. Settling for a low price on this move hurts you in future negotiations. If you’re always willing to settle for a low price, teams just won’t take you seriously on your high price asks in a trade. Sometime you have to dig in and say my asset is worth what I say it’s worth. If the downside of digging in on your trade value is not getting an extra 7th rounder, I won’t lose a second of sleep over it.

The leafs can kick rocks if they want ya to help them out for cheap

I also don't think we need any more lower picks, as it is because of the amount we have had recently we are going to forgo signing a decent amount of our picks on the sheer contract rules. I want a good asset to do this deal, just adding a 5th round pick doesn't do anything for me.

I do think Zetterberg would be happy with whatever the Wings approached him with in terms of if Yzerman thought it was a good deal, I don't see him being hurt by it. I just don't really think this kind of opportunity is really going to happen in a way where the return is intriguing enough for Yzerman to be interested. We didn't even slot our guys as LTIR this year in terms of only using a 26,000 allocation of LTIR money this year according to cap friendly.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Z will have not played for a whole year in Detroit, as much as I like him being retired what he says shouldnt matter anyways. Like what does he say.. "Hey Steve, I know I'm done but I dont like the looks of that on paper transaction that could benefit you in the rebuild so dont do it". That would make him look like even more of an asshole than not being a life long wing.

It doesnt matter though because he would be a life long wing still, he would never set foot in Toronto probably

Yeah, I hated the Datsyuk deal not because he was traded - no one will remember he was once a Coyote - but for the fact we traded down and lost out on a top 3 d-man who will play 10+ years in the NHL when our defense is total trash.

Yes, we still could have drafted Hronek with our 2nd round pick so don't @ me with the scare mongering on how we would have missed out on Hronek.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, I hated the Datsyuk deal not because he was traded - no one will remember he was once a Coyote - but for the fact we traded down and lost out on a top 3 d-man who will play 10+ years in the NHL when our defense is total trash.

Yes, we still could have drafted Hronek with our 2nd round pick so don't @ me with the scare mongering on how we would have missed out on Hronek.

The book on Chychrun is that he was NHL-ready but had a lesser ceiling. The book on Cholowski was that he was always going to be a project, but he’d be heads and shoulders better if he did develop. He was going to take several years before he grew into the player he might become.

I still think it’s WAY too early to be pissed. If Chychrun was in Detroit... he’d be a middle pairing D at best. He’s not a stud D. Fabbro has done even less than Cholo. Being angry about “trading out of a pick for a top 3 D man” who will be around for 10+ years is a weird thing to complain about. Neither Chychrun nor Fabbro are top 3 D at the current time anymore than Cholowski isn’t.

Complaining about any of those D is looking for something to complain about. If Chychrun was a 10 year lock top 3 D, he wouldn’t have fallen 16 slots in the draft. Hasn’t he also had several pretty serious knee injuries?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Give Mule a contract extension, then trade him to the leafs

 

[Winger98]

And if the leafs can’t find a trade of this nature that helps them out of their cap crunch they may need to ship out other assets. Whether that means attaching a high pick to dump a contract or maybe shipping out a guy like kapanen or Johansson for cheap. To me helping them out of this jam for a cheap pick is like hoarding pennies. You’re just not going accumulate enough value to actually make it worth while.

I’m all for adding extra late round picks, but to help a rival out of jam for a late pick is wild to me.

Another thought. Settling for a low price on this move hurts you in future negotiations. If you’re always willing to settle for a low price, teams just won’t take you seriously on your high price asks in a trade. Sometime you have to dig in and say my asset is worth what I say it’s worth. If the downside of digging in on your trade value is not getting an extra 7th rounder, I won’t lose a second of sleep over it.

The leafs can kick rocks if they want us to help them out for cheap

Maybe I'm greedy, but Kapanen and Johansson don't move it much for me. If Toronto doesn't want to cough up a high pick or prospect, I'm looking at swinging something a little bigger for Nylander. They keep their affordable depth, and would gain real roster flexibility to fix their blueline. We get a legit top6 wing who is young, cost controlled, and maybe someone we can flip in a package for either a high 1st or a D/C.

 

[PullHard]

Division rival taxation would need to be in effect + Dubas is in dire need of a wedgie as the young guy so I would be game if it meant something like Johansson + in return

 

[Henkka]

The book on Chychrun is that he was NHL-ready but had a lesser ceiling. The book on Cholowski was that he was always going to be a project, but he’d be heads and shoulders better if he did develop. He was going to take several years before he grew into the player he might become.

I still think it’s WAY too early to be pissed. If Chychrun was in Detroit... he’d be a middle pairing D at best. He’s not a stud D. Fabbro has done even less than Cholo. Being angry about “trading out of a pick for a top 3 D man” who will be around for 10+ years is a weird thing to complain about. Neither Chychrun nor Fabbro are top 3 D at the current time anymore than Cholowski isn’t.

Complaining about any of those D is looking for something to complain about. If Chychrun was a 10 year lock top 3 D, he wouldn’t have fallen 16 slots in the draft. Hasn’t he also had several pretty serious knee injuries?

Yeah, spot on.

And the extra pick from the "chychrun trade" is currently the best defenceman (Hronek).

Nothing but a great trade. Didn't lose anything, but got extra chances to get lucky. And that's what has happened.

These are fun things to look afterwards. Same as Mantha + Bertuzzi. And the whining around the decision for the extra guy.

 

[avssuc]

When Chicago won their second cup, the player salaries were around 20 million over the cap.

Are you saying that because of the strike shortened cap attrition, or is there something I missed?

It seems like the NHL and its non-Chicago fans would have been furious. If this did happen, I hate Chicago even more.

 

[Killerjas]

A 6th or 7th round pick at best for LTIR player

 

[Gniwder]

I also don't think we need any more lower picks, as it is because of the amount we have had recently we are going to forgo signing a decent amount of our picks on the sheer contract rules. I want a good asset to do this deal, just adding a 5th round pick doesn't do anything for me.

This team needs a goalie, a late round pick means another shot. So what if they don't pan out and don't get signed. Goalies are such a crap shoot.

At least that's how I would use the pick.... but we could also just give the pick to Hakan.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

Why would we help out a potential rival we might have to compete against in 3-5 years? Their core is still under 25 they’re still be there if we ever get back to competing. I’ll take Toronto in cap hell over a 7th rounder.

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

I don't understand why more people aren't upset about this than they were about signing the backdiving contracts to start. It is absolutely 100% bullshit to have a team go out and flex their financial muscle to go out and buy contracts from poor teams. Isn't the whole point of the salary cap that you provide cost certainty and a level playing field? Why exactly can Toronto surpass the cap? Don't they still have to be under the cap before the year starts even if the guys are going to go on LTIR?

Leafs fund teams like Arizona. The least they could receive in compensation are a couple of draft picks.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Leafs fund teams like Arizona. The least they could receive in compensation are a couple of draft picks.

Arizona gave you your best player...

Matthews isn't a hockey player without the Arizona/Phoenix Coyotes. So yeah that might have been worth it...

If you want to complain about markets give them multi-generational chances, it really is a long-term play to increase the overall health of the sport. As hockey has gained more roots in places like Nashville and San Jose, you have seen deep connections with the local fans and huge successes. There are challenges, not all markets are doing great, neither is Ottawa for the record.

When you look at Phoenix, Miami, and Atlanta maybe it doesn't help when you're consistently lousy. Nasville, Tampa and San Jose kind of show you that. Most fan-bases get upset about being a doormat. I think we are just starting to get to the point though of the first generation that grew up fans in most of these markets bringing their own children. Traditionally that is a huge part of what makes a fan-base, it is how a lot of people experience sports in terms of life-long fandom with family members. It is an important part of the sports fan for any organization to capture. It happens over time though, very rarely can a team do something like Vegas and sort of instantly establish a very cool culture and connection with a city.

 

[Bench]

Arizona gave you your best player...

Matthews isn't a hockey player without the Arizona/Phoenix Coyotes. So yeah that might have been worth it...

If you want to complain about markets give them multi-generational chances, it really is a long-term play to increase the overall health of the sport. As hockey has gained more roots in places like Nashville and San Jose, you have seen deep connections with the local fans and huge successes. There are challenges, not all markets are doing great, neither is Ottawa for the record.

When you look at Phoenix, Miami, and Atlanta maybe it doesn't help when you're consistently lousy. Nasville, Tampa and San Jose kind of show you that. Most fan-bases get upset about being a doormat. I think we are just starting to get to the point though of the first generation that grew up fans in most of these markets bringing their own children. Traditionally that is a huge part of what makes a fan-base, it is how a lot of people experience sports in terms of life-long fandom with family members. It is an important part of the sports fan for any organization to capture. It happens over time though, very rarely can a team do something like Vegas and sort of instantly establish a very cool culture and connection with a city.

Additionally:
Dallas Stars: The Growth of Youth Hockey in Texas

Early statistics on the USA Hockey website don’t break things down by state before the arrival of the Stars, but the Rocky Mountain Division as a whole had just 9,809 members during the 1992-93 season. That Division contains the states of Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and Utah.

During the Cup-winning 1998-99 season, there were 5,932 players in Texas. Compare those numbers with the current numbers from 2017-18, in which the state of Texas alone has 15,026 players in USA Hockey and the Rocky Mountain Division has a total of 49,312 between the seven states. The only state in the Division with more players than Texas is Colorado, a state with colder weather and winters full of snow and ice that’s only slightly higher at 15,222.

These things take time but they can be very fruitful for the growth of the game in non-traditional markets. And that's only good news for hockey as a whole. I love first generation hockey fans and I hope we continue to bring more and more into the fold.

I grew up on skates from the time I could walk, but not everyone has that experience. Some of the most passionate fans I've met got into the sport in their 30s and are now season ticket holders with their kids playing youth hockey. You love to see it.